Johnny Foreigner

[Bungle73]

One check, no problem, or even one per train.
But you shouldn't need both on-train and barrier checks, that's the TOCs just being over the top.

But not all stations have barriers so you still need on-train checks. I still don't see what the problem is.

I don't do languages either, but always regretted it.
Many, many travellers are now from overseas and they deserve some respect for their language, particularly when things go wrong.
I agree it's not a uniquely railway failing, airports are as bad.
In any case you need foreign languages to pronounce all the footballers' names these days...

I've never forgotten being invited into an SNCF DMU driver's cab in Nice because he saw me taking train photos and wanted to chat (in English) about his last trip to Crewe!
I doubt if the reverse would ever happen, again Eurostar excepted.

So which language are you going to choose?

 

[GB]

One check, no problem, or even one per train.
But you shouldn't need both on-train and barrier checks, that's the TOCs just being over the top.

Why is it over the top? Just because there are (or maybe) on board ticket checks doesn't mean someone hasn't slipped through the net who hasn't got a ticket, and likewise not all stations have barriers.

The underground had automatic ticket barriers long before the national network yet these are universally accepted. Other than the much slimmer chance of getting your ticket checked on board, whats the difference?

 

[Monty]

One check, no problem, or even one per train.
But you shouldn't need both on-train and barrier checks, that's the TOCs just being over the top.
I also object to my perfectly valid through ticket being spat out at Cardiff and having to negotiate with the barrier staff (both ways), because "your ticket does not say Cardiff on it".
It's just so unintelligent.

Problem is you can't guarantee everyone on the train can be checked by a guard or a RPI. Long distance journeys are not so much of a problem, but on suburban services in and out of major cities it's impossible. Peak times presents it's own problems too, it's an uphill battle to check a 12-Car into Waterloo in the morning!

I understand passenger's concerns about heavy handed staff, however I have yet to witness such an incident. When a ticket was rejected, I would just politely request to inspect the ticket, then after looking at it I would open the barriers. No harm done, inpolite staff is not a failure of the ticket barrier concept, thats a failure on the companies customer service training.

Still at least it's not as bad as in Russia, in some cities they tried to enclose bus & tram stops and install barriers. When this did'nt work they installed them inside the vehicles. Now hows that for being treated like a criminal?

 

[Clip]

One check, no problem, or even one per train.
But you shouldn't need both on-train and barrier checks, that's the TOCs just being over the top.

So how do the tickets get checked for someone travelling from Kings Cross to say, Finsbury Park if there are no barriers at either station on a packed evening peak train? Or many other short journies out of london? Liverpool street especially on the Cheshunt/Enfeild Town/Chingford services?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I also object to my perfectly valid through ticket being spat out at Cardiff and having to negotiate with the barrier staff (both ways), because "your ticket does not say Cardiff on it".
It's just so unintelligent..

To be fair, I have never had any problems with staff at the barriers at Cardiff Central. And I often travel on tickets that are rejected by the barriers there (I break my journey a lot there). I just show the member of staff and they open the barrier for me.

 

[sheff1]

I understand passenger's concerns about heavy handed staff, however I have yet to witness such an incident.

I don't know if you have been lucky or I have been unlucky, but I have personally been questioned / accused by unknowledgeable staff at barriers as far apart as Plymouth, Southampton, Nottingham & Edinburgh in the last year alone. In all cases the rejected ticket was 100% valid and in the case of Southampton the ticket wasn't even remotely unusual, it being from Southampton to London

Conversely, the one and only time I encountered a (manual) barrier at a main line station abroad (Arlanda airport) the home-printed ticket on which I was stopping short was accepted without any fuss by a charming lady who spoke perfect English.

 

[Wolf_359]

One check, no problem, or even one per train.
But you shouldn't need both on-train and barrier checks, that's the TOCs just being over the top.

Even if you do have barriers at both stations you are travelling between, a barrier can not discover split ticket fraud or where 1st has been used by a STD ticket holder, both these can only be caught by on train checks.


I have personally caught one split ticket fraudster & i know of quite a few more that have been caught by other colleagues, and so many 1st class usage by STD class ticket holdes that i have lost count.

So both on train & barrier checks are required.

 

[transmanche]

Still at least it's not as bad as in Russia, in some cities they tried to enclose bus & tram stops and install barriers. When this did'nt work they installed them inside the vehicles. Now hows that for being treated like a criminal?

Here's a typical 1970s London bus (DMS type) with an on-board turnstile. This one was used for collecting cash fares. In my area they were used for checking 'multi-ride' tickets.

I never felt like I was treated as a criminal.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But not all stations have barriers so you still need on-train checks. I still don't see what the problem is.
So which language are you going to choose?

When I have travelled from North Wales to Manchester and been fully checked when buying a ticket and on the train, why should I have to negotiate a line of intrusive G4S staff at Piccadilly just to get out of the station?

And on language it's not a question of "which one", it's more about adapting to a multi-cultural/multi-linguistic world and having the public facing staff and information sources capable of dealing with that.

Just the opinions of a regular traveller.

 

[Bungle73]

When I have travelled from North Wales to Manchester and been fully checked when buying a ticket and on the train, why should I have to negotiate a line of intrusive G4S staff at Piccadilly just to get out of the station?

Because just because your tickets been checked it doesn't mean everyone's has. I still don't get what the fuss is about.

And on language it's not a question of "which one", it's more about adapting to a multi-cultural/multi-linguistic world and having the public facing staff and information sources capable of dealing with that.

Just the opinions of a regular traveller.

It is a case of "which one". If you want signs in multiple languages you have to decide which language(s) that will be.

 

[SS4]

When I have travelled from North Wales to Manchester and been fully checked when buying a ticket and on the train, why should I have to negotiate a line of intrusive G4S staff at Piccadilly just to get out of the station?

How do G4S know your ticket's been checked on the train? Intrusive and unfriendly staff is a training issue. I don't condone it but it's easy for staff to become cynical when they see people they know fare dodging but are unable to do anything about it.

And on language it's not a question of "which one", it's more about adapting to a multi-cultural/multi-linguistic world and having the public facing staff and information sources capable of dealing with that.

Just the opinions of a regular traveller.

More training costs and you still have to pick which one for space/time considerations. Then consider that English is a concise language unlike, say, French.

I'd be very interested to see if middle management on the Continent constantly undermine their staff like they do here - I'll pick a common one we see here and reverse the roles: RPI correctly reports a largely nailed-on fraud case and the TOC accepts a "goodwill" gesture of a couple of hundred quid letting the passenger off the hook.
Another example is those making short journeys not paying and checks being rare enough to allow the passenger to save more despite the PF.

It'd be interesting to see how passengers behave towards staff too. Do they get abusive when they travel on the wrong ticket?

 

[WestCoast]

When I have travelled from North Wales to Manchester and been fully checked when buying a ticket and on the train, why should I have to negotiate a line of intrusive G4S staff at Piccadilly just to get out of the station?

G4S's primary purpose is to make sure that passengers coming off North West regional trains have tickets. There are a few legitimate reasons for not having a ticket when you're using local rail services in this part of the network (lack of ticket offices/TVMs, no penalty fares e.t.c).

The continental networks, in general, work very much on the honour system when it comes to regional networks. It's competely different to many parts of the British network. They know that they can't check everyone's ticket, but they expect their passengers to buy tickets before boarding any 'regional' train. There aren't any ifs or buts about it, since passengers know that any member of staff can fine them a substantial amount on the train if they don't have an exceptionally good reason for not being able to buy one. All the investment goes into on-board checks, for example, it's very common to see two guards/inspectors on DB RE services, perhaps even three or four on peak services. Security personnel accompanying inspectors during late nights is a common sight in some areas.

It'd be interesting to see how passengers behave towards staff too. Do they get abusive when they travel on the wrong ticket?

In many cases, I'd say it was harder to accidentally buy the wrong ticket or travel on the wrong train than it is in the UK, especially on some networks. In most high pop. density continental countries, Advance fares are generally not available on regional and interegional services.There's usually no off-peak/peak distinction, generally no TOC-specific fares and permitted routes are often generous. You sometimes even have to prove your railcard entitlement at TVMs.

Fares country-wide in the Netherlands, for example, are basically a case of choosing between a single, day return or day pass, with any further discounts coming from railcards or season tickets.

 

[supervalkoinen]

Slightly off topic: this weekend I've discovered a strange anomaly in the Austrian ticket issuing system.
Checking a journey online produced a higher fare than that charged for the identical ticket at a machine, though the same ticket bought from the ticket office next to the machine has the higher fare.
However none of this appears to be shown in the info available online or at the station.
Discount for avoiding humans!

 

[Oscar]

I'm afraid Continental ticketing systems are not free of anomalies. I have found cheaper DB Sparpreise by splitting and have also found Bahn Card discounts for journeys within a country other than Germany when tickets are bought from DB. I'd also recommend comparing websites for Eurostar ticket prices as the cheapest Eurostar tickets are not where one may expect them to be. Regarding the Austrian anomaly, could the ticket machine be using a different operating system to the ticket office or website? At one point in the past Shere Fast Ticket (but as far as I am aware only Shere Fast Ticket) gave Railcard discounts on combined rail and point-to-point bus tickets which caused the same situation to arise in the UK.

 

[WestCoast]

I'm afraid Continental ticketing systems are not free of anomalies. I have found cheaper DB Sparpreise by splitting and have also found Bahn Card discounts for journeys within a country other than Germany when tickets are bought from DB.

There are anomalies everywhere (and not just on the railway by any means!), but they are of course country specific. There are also significant differences between the ticketing products offered and the rules in each country (e.g. strictly distance based pricing in the Netherlands and no-onboard sales on NS vs. weekend offers in Belgium and the option of on-board sales subject to a small fee, providing the guard is asked before boarding).

I'd also recommend comparing websites for Eurostar ticket prices as the cheapest Eurostar tickets are not where one may expect them to be.

In the days when Eurostar didn't offer reduced single fares to those booking in Europe, the USA website offered a full range of cheaper single fares. A proxy could have saved you a rather significant amount.

Slightly off topic: this weekend I've discovered a strange anomaly in the Austrian ticket issuing system.
Checking a journey online produced a higher fare than that charged for the identical ticket at a machine, though the same ticket bought from the ticket office next to the machine has the higher fare.
However none of this appears to be shown in the info available online or at the station.

Found this on their website...is this anything to do with it?

With the unmanned sales channels,you also benefit from the self-booking reduction for VORTEILStickets {Railcard product I believe}, apart from the fast ticket purchase.

Discount for avoiding humans!

That's nothing new actually; you're charged an extra €0,50 for buying domestic tickets at the counter in the Netherlands, but really the fares are simple to work out and many regular users don't use paper tickets at all since the introduction of a nationwide Chipkaart (like Oyster).

 

[tannedfrog]

Talking of discrepancies in the Netherlands -

Amsterdam to Dusseldorf 35,80€ / 59,00€ from Netherlands Railways
Amsterdam to Dusseldorf 31,90€ / 55,00€ from Deutsche Bahn

(routes via Venlo / via Emmerich respectively)

What's more, many stations are barriered, partly to do with the Chipkaart, I guess

 

[talltim]

The safety announcements are made for a reason, usually because of previous incidents where it is deemed that the incident could have been avoided if the announcement was made. The rest might be of interest to some people.

Doesn't stop it being bloody annoying tho. And has been said, turns you off to the importand bit. I have actually caught the wrong train before (different stopping pattern), which while it was my fault, I might have been alerted to before the train left if I hadn't turned off listening long before the important bit of the announcement.

 

[Flamingo]

Doesn't stop it being bloody annoying tho. And has been said, turns you off to the importand bit. I have actually caught the wrong train before (different stopping pattern), which while it was my fault, I might have been alerted to before the train left if I hadn't turned off listening long before the important bit of the announcement.

So an announcement was made, you didn't listen but this was the fault of the staff making the announcement as they didn't make it in an interesting enough manner to keep your attention.

"I'm the customer here, are you trying to tell me it's my fault?"
"No sir, of course not. I'm just saying it's not ours"

 

[bb21]

Talking of discrepancies in the Netherlands -

Amsterdam to Dusseldorf 35,80€ / 59,00€ from Netherlands Railways
Amsterdam to Dusseldorf 31,90€ / 55,00€ from Deutsche Bahn

(routes via Venlo / via Emmerich respectively)

What's more, many stations are barriered, partly to do with the Chipkaart, I guess

They are in fact surprisingly common on the continent. I remember a couple of years ago buying a Menton - Ventimiglia single on the French side from a SNCF ticket office cost €2.40, whereas buying the reverse direction from a Trenitalia ticket office cost €2.60. Who says return tickets on the continent don't save you money?

 

[talltim]

So an announcement was made, you didn't listen but this was the fault of the staff making the announcement as they didn't make it in an interesting enough manner to keep your attention.

Yes.
As I commute every day from Chesterfield-Sheffield and return I get plenty of trains that start at Sheffield. They run through the whole speil and I've heard it 100s of times over the last 10 years so I switch off. The important bit, that it was the one train of the day on that service that doesn't stop at Chesterfield got lost in the crap about advance tickets, keeping your bag with you, don't block the aisles cos there's a trolley despite having a perfectly good buffet area with its own non-passenger use doors, etc, etc.
Now it's not the TMs fault, its the TOC, you can tell its all pre-prepared official guff, however it still defeat the purpose of making announcements

 

[jon0844]

I went to Manchester last week and was sat in the quiet coach. So, I thought nothing of the fact that besides the LED display, there were NO announcements at all to say where the train was going, to warn people to check they were on the right train, and to get off if they weren't travelling.

I figured I didn't hear anything because it was the quiet coach. Yet, once the wheels were rolling, the train was introduced and the stopping pattern given, plus a request to read the safety notices.

It seemed to me to be a bit odd to do that AFTER leaving! And I boarded the train as soon as it was announced, so there hadn't been anything said at any point.

The same happened on the way back, but I was once again in the quiet coach. Was this for the whole train, or just my carriage? If just coach A, I don't recommend the visually impaired get a seat there.

 

[bb21]

Y
Now it's not the TMs fault, its the TOC, you can tell its all pre-prepared official guff, however it still defeat the purpose of making announcements

What is your solution then?

 

[talltim]

What is your solution then?

Just have the important info. i.e. where the train is going and when.

 

[Monty]

You can't win really, some people complain about too much infomation while others will moan about too little. You'll even have passengers moan they are not hearing what they think is relevent infomation. You can't please everyone unfortunately.

 

[jon0844]

I think the basic stopping pattern and ultimate destination before anything else is the right order to do things. And that's how I thought most trains DID do things.

That way, regulars can switch off once they know they're on the correct train if they wish (and not moan if they do miss something else that's important later, such as information about delays or problems with connections).

 

[Flamingo]

I start any important announcements with the phrase "There is a naked woman in coach A and free beer at the bar - now I have your full attention..."

(This is a joke, for those with their sense of humour switched off)

 

[reb0118]

I start any important announcements with the phrase "There is a naked woman in coach A and free beer at the bar.........."

Which train was this. I'm off to FGW land in a few months so I may book on to the same train for a repeat performance!

.......now I have your full attention!

(you certainly got my attention )

 

[jon0844]

I start any important announcements with the phrase "There is a naked woman in coach A and free beer at the bar - now I have your full attention..."

That wouldn't get my attention - it would cause me to panic. I wouldn't know which way to run first!