Jubilee line extension

[mrmartin]

Has much thought been given to further extending the Jubilee line from Stratford?

There is still plenty of capacity from North Greenwich to Stratford (as all paths aren't in use atm) and I imagine a lot of people would change at Stratford to Crossrail/central line if it were extended, making it possible to extend, unlike most lines which would draw too much traffic and overload the lines.

I assume this was never even planned as there is 0 passive provision at all for this at the current terminus at Stratford.

 

[90sWereBetter]

North Greenwich is designed in such a way that the line could be extended to Thamesmead if need be. I don't think there was any plan to go further than Stratford.

Going into the realms of fantasy, the Jubilee extending to Walthamstow from Stratford would have been quite a useful extension, given the buses along Leyton High Road/Lea Bridge/Bakers Arms/Hoe Street are absolutely rammed at the best of times.

 

[NSE]

Like you mentioned, it'll be a mission to go under the DLR line to International and all the station haha. I think I remember reading that the station at North Greenwich was designed with the middle line for future extension south east. They didn't do it, but I believe the station was constructed so as to make it easy to build it one day. However I think Crossrail to Abbey Wood largely covers the intended route this would have taken, I suppose a swift curve to the south and it could come back towards Lewisham and take the Hayes branch

 

[edwin_m]

An extension from Stratford would have to smash its way through the booking hall and under the GEML before finding itself in Westfield somewhere. With another line going through the concourse the passenger flows would be even worse than they are now. Considering the minimal demand at International and the presence of a DLR service that connects the two already, I really can't see it happening.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suspect that if this completely unlikely extension was ever pursued, they'd just use the DLR route at least until under the main station platforms, with the DLR terminating at Stratford. The DLR and its short stations would be relatively easier to relocate.

The best time to have made the decision should have been about 2005 though...

 

[swt_passenger]

...I suppose a swift curve to the south and it could come back towards Lewisham and take the Hayes branch

The consultation report posted yesterday includes aiming the Bakerloo extension overrun (stabling) tunnels at the Hayes branch. Probably far more likely...

 

[NSE]

The consultation report posted yesterday includes aiming the Bakerloo extension overrun (stabling) tunnels at the Hayes branch. Probably far more likely...

Oh I know that's the more likely one.

 

[Southernrover]

The Station "Box" at North Greenwich was designed with "Knockout" sections at the East-end so that an extension to the Royal Docks (for London City Airport) could be built.
Subsequently the DLR was extended to Woolwich Arsenal calling at City Airport on the way.

The alignment of the station at Greenwich means that the tunnels go out under the Thames at both ends.
With the advent of crossrail there is zero chance that the Jubilee Line will ever reach Thamesmead.
The sections can be seen very briefly from the left hand side of a Westbound train as the train approaches North Greenwich Station as it leaves the tube tunnel.

 

[bramling]

The Station "Box" at North Greenwich was designed with "Knockout" sections at the East-end so that an extension to the Royal Docks (for London City Airport) could be built.
Subsequently the DLR was extended to Woolwich Arsenal calling at City Airport on the way.

The alignment of the station at Greenwich means that the tunnels go out under the Thames at both ends.
With the advent of crossrail there is zero chance that the Jubilee Line will ever reach Thamesmead.
The sections can be seen very briefly from the left hand side of a Westbound train as the train approaches North Greenwich Station as it leaves the tube tunnel.

I think any extension of the Jubilee at the east end is extremely unlikely - unless something else changes like a new railway is built which reduces passenger loadings substantially.

Loadings to/from Stratford are too high to make any branch from North Greenwich viable. Whilst a small proportion of trains terminate at North Greenwich this wouldn't provide a frequent enough service to anything but a minor branch, and any reduction in the number of Stratford trains would increase overcrowding there.

If anything, there is more of a case for change at the western end of the line, where the current situation of siding reversals at Wembley Park and Willesden Green, and soon West Hamsptead, is not ideal. There was once a proposal to send some trains to Harrow-on-the-Hill, however this seems to have fallen by the wayside.

In fact, I'm surprised no consideration seems to have been given to confining the Met to platforms 1 and 6 at Wembley Park, routing the Jubilee through platforms 2 and 5, and using the remaining two platforms as two terminating bay roads. The snag would be loss of cross-platform interchange of course.

 

[Hophead]

The Jubilee trains which terminate at North Greenwich do so only to give passengers intending to board there and at the next few stations, a chance to actually be able to board a train.

 

[Busaholic]

If a camel is an animal designed by a committee, what on earth would the Jubilee Line be if extended further North on its Eastern flank? Why not go the full hog and bend it back round to Stanmore via Walthamstow as a strange Inner/ Outer Circle? Stratford, with its new roads and infrastructure, is as ideal an area as currently exists for a tram route from there to Leyton, Walthamstow and Chingford Mount with 24 hour operation.

 

[rebmcr]

The Jubilee trains which terminate at North Greenwich do so only to give passengers intending to board there and at the next few stations, a chance to actually be able to board a train.

No, it's because of not enough trains for a full peak service. For the same reason, Harrow-on-the-Hill extensions would not be feasible either.

 

[duncanp]

I would like to see the DLR extended from Stratford International up the Lea Valley to Tottenham Hale.

There is a lack of useful connections from much of Waltham Forest to Stratford and Docklands, and the buses take ages.

Or more realistically, reinstate the Hall Farm curve to allow through trains from Chingford and Walthamstow to Stratford.

 

[class387]

North Greenwich is designed in such a way that the line could be extended to Thamesmead if need be. I don't think there was any plan to go further than Stratford.

Going into the realms of fantasy, the Jubilee extending to Walthamstow from Stratford would have been quite a useful extension, given the buses along Leyton High Road/Lea Bridge/Bakers Arms/Hoe Street are absolutely rammed at the best of times.

I think it would make more sense to extend the Victoria Line to Stratford rather than the Jubilee to Walthamstow. Has such proposal ever been considered?

 

[duncanp]

Extending the Victoria Line to Stratford would, of course, be expensive, but you could try and make it run via Whipps Cross and build a station to serve the hospital.

Possibly then extend it to Leytonstone rather than Stratford for interchange with the Central Line.

Mind you, as someone who lives in Walthamstow, I like being able to get on at the terminus and get a seat, rather than have the train clogged up with all those pesky Central Line commuters. (only joking) :-P

Question is, could the Victoria Line cope with the extra passengers?

All this is pure fantasy of course, but my earlier suggestion of reinstating the Hall Farm curve has been discussed on a number of occasions.

 

[Mikey C]

Extending the Victoria Line to Stratford would, of course, be expensive, but you could try and make it run via Whipps Cross and build a station to serve the hospital.

Possibly then extend it to Leytonstone rather than Stratford for interchange with the Central Line.

Mind you, as someone who lives in Walthamstow, I like being able to get on at the terminus and get a seat, rather than have the train clogged up with all those pesky Central Line commuters. (only joking) :-P

Question is, could the Victoria Line cope with the extra passengers?

All this is pure fantasy of course, but my earlier suggestion of reinstating the Hall Farm curve has been discussed on a number of occasions.

No!

Not that many people would go from Stratford to the West End via Walthamstow, especially once Crossrail opens

 

[TheNewNo2]

Fact is, in terms of extensions, there's little which can be done anywhere. The Victoria Line was meant to go beyond Brixton but it's full at the south end anyway, so if it went to, say, Herne Hill, that means passengers at Brixton couldn't get on, so no gains. The Jubilee again is full in the centre, so unless you could come up with a branch which didn't cause any extra people to go beyond Finchley Road it's probably not a good idea. Those extensions which are in progress are either of the lines which aren't at capacity (Bakerloo / Northern Charing Cross branch) or are rerouting of existing trains (Met).

There is scope for increased capacity on certain lines, but the Vic is already almost running 36tph, the Jubilee is at 30. The Northern could get more capacity but only once Camden Town is taken out of the equation. The Piccadilly could run more frequently if they installed TBTC and new trains, but that capacity will probably be taken by Heathrow passengers anyway.

 

[Busaholic]

Fact is, in terms of extensions, there's little which can be done anywhere. The Victoria Line was meant to go beyond Brixton but it's full at the south end anyway, so if it went to, say, Herne Hill, that means passengers at Brixton couldn't get on, so no gains. The Jubilee again is full in the centre, so unless you could come up with a branch which didn't cause any extra people to go beyond Finchley Road it's probably not a good idea. Those extensions which are in progress are either of the lines which aren't at capacity (Bakerloo / Northern Charing Cross branch) or are rerouting of existing trains (Met).

There is scope for increased capacity on certain lines, but the Vic is already almost running 36tph, the Jubilee is at 30. The Northern could get more capacity but only once Camden Town is taken out of the equation. The Piccadilly could run more frequently if they installed TBTC and new trains, but that capacity will probably be taken by Heathrow passengers anyway.

Herne Hill could have had an extension of the Northern Charing Cross branch from Kennington if the Battersea extension had not been promulgated by the previous Mayor, with a possible additional station not too far from Camberwell Green, much needed.

 

[edwin_m]

Also the Tube model of relatively frequent stops starts becoming increasingly uncompetitive further out. The Met and Piccadilly provide "express" service to more distant suburbs but none of the other lines has the infrastructure to do this. Hence the focus on the Crossrail model, allowing outer suburban trains to have access to inner London. If any new "Tube" lines are built I would expect something more like a beefed-up DLR, as was proposd for the Metro alternative to Crossrail 2.

 

[SW19Traveller]

The Station "Box" at North Greenwich was designed with "Knockout" sections at the East-end so that an extension to the Royal Docks (for London City Airport) could be built.
Subsequently the DLR was extended to Woolwich Arsenal calling at City Airport on the way.

The alignment of the station at Greenwich means that the tunnels go out under the Thames at both ends.
With the advent of crossrail there is zero chance that the Jubilee Line will ever reach Thamesmead.
The sections can be seen very briefly from the left hand side of a Westbound train as the train approaches North Greenwich Station as it leaves the tube tunnel.

While North Greenwich was indeed designed to allow an extension to Thamesmead, the route was never safeguarded and I suspect London Underground quickly lost interest in it.

There is now a building in the way of those knockout panels so they can no longer be used as originally intended even if there was interest in doing so.

 

[Taunton]

There is still plenty of capacity from North Greenwich to Stratford (as all paths aren't in use atm)

My local line nowadays. I suspect not yours.

Capacity is currently overwhelmed beyond North Greenwich. In the morning peak there can be constant issues with passengers unable to board at Canning Town westbound, and that's without any interruptions.

The key capacity issue is there can't be more trains run on this section because the capacity of just three terminal tracks at Stratford is fully occupied. When the service was recently reinforced the additional services are in central London only, turning at North Greenwich, where notably more turn short now than used to happen.

Congestion and signal stops inbound to Stratford are common anyway, it is quite normal for a Jubilee train to be significantly beaten by the DLR from Canning Town alongside, which has to make three extra stops.

This all gives an issue in the evening peak where passengers eastbound on a North Greenwich short working are recommended to change at Canary Wharf to stay on the platform for the next Stratford train, but find themselves at the back of a considerable (orderly) queue there at each doorway, which maybe doesn't even manage to all fit in the next train.

The North Greenwich trains do have an advantage in clearing any westbound evening loads at Canary Wharf who have been unable to board, and likewise at Canada Water in the morning peak, which has become a key interchange with the Overground.

An upside of the additional North Greenwich terminators is they now prevent the old turn short service recovery that used to be done there, with supposed Stratford services suddenly announced as turning there, sometimes not until getting towards Canary Wharf, and once after leaving there, meaning everyone had to go over the bridge and miss the next two onward trains.

 

[LU_timetabler]

Like you mentioned, it'll be a mission to go under the DLR line to International and all the station haha. I think I remember reading that the station at North Greenwich was designed with the middle line for future extension south east. They didn't do it, but I believe the station was constructed so as to make it easy to build it one day. However I think Crossrail to Abbey Wood largely covers the intended route this would have taken, I suppose a swift curve to the south and it could come back towards Lewisham and take the Hayes branch

I think you'll find the Bakerloo has dibs on the Hayes line.

 

[LU_timetabler]

I think any extension of the Jubilee at the east end is extremely unlikely - unless something else changes like a new railway is built which reduces passenger loadings substantially.

Loadings to/from Stratford are too high to make any branch from North Greenwich viable. Whilst a small proportion of trains terminate at North Greenwich this wouldn't provide a frequent enough service to anything but a minor branch, and any reduction in the number of Stratford trains would increase overcrowding there.

If anything, there is more of a case for change at the western end of the line, where the current situation of siding reversals at Wembley Park and Willesden Green, and soon West Hamsptead, is not ideal. There was once a proposal to send some trains to Harrow-on-the-Hill, however this seems to have fallen by the wayside.

In fact, I'm surprised no consideration seems to have been given to confining the Met to platforms 1 and 6 at Wembley Park, routing the Jubilee through platforms 2 and 5, and using the remaining two platforms as two terminating bay roads. The snag would be loss of cross-platform interchange of course.

And a further snag would be after a Wembley event when trains can be run into the fast platforms to give rapid clearance of crowds.

 

[LU_timetabler]

There are no Jubilee expansion plans because it is already over-capacity. There are service enhancements - meaning extra trains on order for a more frequent service, rivalling the Victoria's train every 100s. This should ease the over-crowding as will CrossRail. So service enhancement planned - yes. Extension - no.
I always find it amusing that people want to extend the already busiest / most overcrowded lines!! The lines that are under capacity are the ones that should be extended, hence Bakerloo extension.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The idea of extending the Jubilee line further SE is now redundant, when they created the would br Junction at North Greenwich it was at a time when Crossrail was still low down on the proposal list and before Stratford became the ultra hub it is now a decade after JLE was completed.

I'm surprised they haven't considered extending the Jubilee line to Uxbridge by replacing Met Line services

 

[Busaholic]

I'm surprised they haven't considered extending the Jubilee line to Uxbridge by replacing Met Line services

Putting a cat among the pigeons, then I'd suggest one of the Jubilee branches could once again terminate at Charing Cross: post-Crossrail there will probably be a lot less travel from Bond Street and stations north thereof to Canary Wharf all the way on the Jubilee. Shorts could, I believe, work from Waterloo eastwards to preserve the level of service from there to Stratford.

 

[bramling]

Putting a cat among the pigeons, then I'd suggest one of the Jubilee branches could once again terminate at Charing Cross: post-Crossrail there will probably be a lot less travel from Bond Street and stations north thereof to Canary Wharf all the way on the Jubilee. Shorts could, I believe, work from Waterloo eastwards to preserve the level of service from there to Stratford.

The Jubilee is certainly unusual in that the most consistently busy section is Waterloo to Stratford. I can see Crossrail killing Bond Street to Canary Wharf, plus Paddington-Baker St-Canary Wharf journeys. There may also be a slight reduction in London Bridge to Canary Wharf as a result of people going via Abbey Wood. I'd be surprised if many from north of Bond Street bother to change though, plus other stations on the extension are big traffic draws too - Canada Water and Canning Town have both grown enormously for example. With Canary Wharf continuing to grow, any Crossrail-related demand decrease may well be offset by increases from elsewhere.

If the Jubilee were ever to get a branch it would be one diverging in a north-west direction to give extra reversing capability at the west end of the line. Uxbridge actually works fairly well on paper, although passengers might not appreciate having to use Tube trains and having to stop at all the intermediate stations between Wembley Park and Baker Street. All the Jubilee needs is a decent way of turning round about half of the service somewhere short of Stanmore. Easier said than done though. I suspect Harrow may well happen eventually simply through necessity. Time will tell though - if Harrow does happen then they will need quite a few extra trains.

 

[Railguy1]

The Jubilee is certainly unusual in that the most consistently busy section is Waterloo to Stratford. I can see Crossrail killing Bond Street to Canary Wharf, plus Paddington-Baker St-Canary Wharf journeys. There may also be a slight reduction in London Bridge to Canary Wharf as a result of people going via Abbey Wood. I'd be surprised if many from north of Bond Street bother to change though, plus other stations on the extension are big traffic draws too - Canada Water and Canning Town have both grown enormously for example. With Canary Wharf continuing to grow, any Crossrail-related demand decrease may well be offset by increases from elsewhere.

If the Jubilee were ever to get a branch it would be one diverging in a north-west direction to give extra reversing capability at the west end of the line. Uxbridge actually works fairly well on paper, although passengers might not appreciate having to use Tube trains and having to stop at all the intermediate stations between Wembley Park and Baker Street. All the Jubilee needs is a decent way of turning round about half of the service somewhere short of Stanmore. Easier said than done though. I suspect Harrow may well happen eventually simply through necessity. Time will tell though - if Harrow does happen then they will need quite a few extra trains.

Harrow would still be required by Met line services to terminate trains during the peaks or to recover the service, particularly after the SSR is re signalled. There is no extra space in Harrow to expand the station either.

 

[Mojo]

All the Jubilee needs is a decent way of turning round about half of the service somewhere short of Stanmore. Easier said than done though. I suspect Harrow may well happen eventually simply through necessity. Time will tell though - if Harrow does happen then they will need quite a few extra trains.

One proposal that was seriously being mooted a few years ago was the Jubilee to run to Harrow-on-the-Hill taking over services to Preston Rd and Northwick Pk, meaning all Met trains would run semi-fast south of Harrow.

This would not only solve the problem of finding space to turn around trains on the north end of the line but would also remove some of the over-supply to Stanmore too which is a problem on other tube lines too, particularly Cockfosters and High Barnet (although I'm not sure in the case of the latter why they don't either use the turnback at Finchley Central or run through trains to Mill Hill (East); I know I saw somewhere recently plans to remodel East Finchley I think it was to allow terminating trains in the middle platforms there).

 

[NorthKent1989]

Its pointless extending the Jubilee line from NG, however if it were ever to happen then maybe perhaps extend it towards Eltham then have it take over the Bexleyheath line to Dartford, however this is just a pie in the sky idea