Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[DarloRich]

Starmer's done the right thing;

Right decision - poorly timed

 

[Busaholic]

Right decision - poorly timed

How so?

 

[DarloRich]

How so?

Labour should have moved at the first opportunity. To do so now looks like succumbing to media/Tory pressure and undermines, slightly, the good work Starmer has done in de-Corbyinating Labour. To withdraw the whip ( so to speak) yet still have this candidate under the Labour badge on ballot looks a bit silly.

 

[najaB]

Labour should have moved at the first opportunity. To do so now looks like succumbing to media/Tory pressure and undermines, slightly, the good work Starmer has done in de-Corbyinating Labour.

To act too quickly though might be taken as a knee-jerk reaction that didn't following any process.

 

[brad465]

Labour should have moved at the first opportunity. To do so now looks like succumbing to media/Tory pressure and undermines, slightly, the good work Starmer has done in de-Corbyinating Labour. To withdraw the whip ( so to speak) yet still have this candidate under the Labour badge on ballot looks a bit silly.

While Labour did act too slow, the bold bit was much harder to avoid, as the story broke after the deadline for candidate confirmation. The Green party candidate who withdrew did so swiftly, but is still on the ballot for the same reason. It could be argued Labour should have screened potential candidates better, but I don't know how much information they have access to and its possible this incident wouldn't have been picked up even with a good process.

 

[DustyBin]

My thoughts too, Labour's biggest weakness at the moment is comms.

Better than commies I suppose!

 

[Busaholic]

Labour should have moved at the first opportunity. To do so now looks like succumbing to media/Tory pressure and undermines, slightly, the good work Starmer has done in de-Corbyinating Labour. To withdraw the whip ( so to speak) yet still have this candidate under the Labour badge on ballot looks a bit silly.

The Mail had been sitting on the story waiting for it to be too late for Labour to select another candidate, knowing however Starmer and co reacted they and the other Tory-supporting media would criticise it. If Labour had immediately withdrawn support for their candidate, it could have been characterised as a kneejerk reaction, as najaB said. Far better to give it proper scrutiny and then reach the right decision. In any case, as Labour probably suspected, the Mail had further titbits up their sleeve so their damage limitation has been pretty good in my estimation in the far from ideal circumstances. The hypocrisy of the Tories who always defend the indefensible until the bitter end is not something Labour need to copy.

However, I can understand why you might not agree.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Mail had been sitting on the story waiting for it to be too late for Labour to select another candidate, knowing however Starmer and co reacted they and the other Tory-supporting media would criticise it. If Labour had immediately withdrawn support for their candidate, it could have been characterised as a kneejerk reaction, as najaB said. Far better to give it proper scrutiny and then reach the right decision. In any case, as Labour probably suspected, the Mail had further titbits up their sleeve so their damage limitation has been pretty good in my estimation in the far from ideal circumstances. The hypocrisy of the Tories who always defend the indefensible until the bitter end is not something Labour need to copy.

However, I can understand why you might not agree.

I would say, yes and no.

Considering this recording must have been sitting around since October, it seems very likely that either, as you say, the Mail did sit on it until too late to select another candidate, or whoever leaked it to them waited until too late. (IMO there really should be some code of conduct about releasing stories when the Press has them and it's in the public interest to do so, not waiting deliberately so as to cause maximum embarrassment).

But it doesn't seem likely to me the Press would have criticised Labour's reaction as 'kneejerk' if Labour had immediately withdrawn support - simply because that's not the kind of accusation they've made in the past. The usual mode of the press is to demand the heads of politicians the instant some adverse story breaks. And I also don't think Labour were taking time to scrutinise the situation - because that's not what they were initially saying: When the story broke, the comments Labour spokespeople were making weren't 'We're looking into this and will get back to you', they were along the lines of 'He's our candidate, he's apologised and he's staying'. That makes it look to me like Labour changed their tune because they figured out the publicity was too bad. Besides, considering this was a recording, how long does it take to check the recording was genuine, call the candidate and ask whether he said that, what he meant and whether there was any special mitigating context? Half an hour? An hour?

I actually think Labour's initial response was correct. There's far too much sacking politicians and ending entire careers the moment someone makes some indiscretion. As far as I'm concerned, Azhar Ali has apologised, acknowledged he shouldn't have said what he did and appears to understand why. That should be, case closed and nothing more to be done, as long as he doesn't start saying similar stuff in the future. Unfortunately for Labour, they've spent so long calling for the heads of various Tory politicians on the smallest of pretexts that they aren't really in a position to make that case

 

[Acfb]

I think it exposes the hypocrisy of the Starmer/Labour leadership TBH compared on the dodgy pretexts left wing MPs like Andy Macdonald etc have had the whip withdrawn and they were rightly getting criticised for it by various journalists like Owen Jones, Dan Hodges, Robert Shrimsley, Michael Crick etc.

I don't have anything against Azhar Ali personally and I don't even necessarily think it was antisemitic, just at absolute worst more of an offensive/idiotic/overly cynical remark TBH. He was also a parliamentary candidate in 2015 and 2019.


Interestingly the latest scandal which has just broken is with the right wing (anti Corbyn) former Labour MP Graham Jones who which looks closer to genuine antisemitism which is on the Guido Fawkes website.

 

[Bantamzen]

As much as the Mail has been sneaky holding onto this quote, Ali said it at a Labour party meeting didn't he? So I mean its not like it was under the party's radar.

 

[brad465]

Interestingly the latest scandal which has just broken is with the right wing (anti Corbyn) former Labour MP Graham Jones who which looks closer to genuine antisemitism which is on the Guido Fawkes website.

That'll be this one, at least in this case they've acted much faster and it's for a GE seat, not a by-election, so there is time to make adjustments:

Labour suspends second candidate Graham Jones after recording emerges

Graham Jones, a former Labour MP, is facing an investigation over comments he allegedly made about Israel.

www.bbc.co.uk

Labour has suspended a second parliamentary candidate after allegations that he made comments about Israel.
Former MP Graham Jones is also facing an investigation, the BBC understands.
It comes after Labour withdrew support for the party's candidate for the Rochdale by-election, Azhar Ali, for apparently making antisemitic remarks.
Mr Jones has been contacted for comment.
Labour had selected Mr Jones to contest his former Lancashire seat of Hyndburn in the upcoming general election.
But, on Tuesday the Guido Fawkes website published audio in which the former MP allegedly uses an expletive to refer to Israel and arguing that British people who fight in the Israel Defence Forces "should be locked up".
Ministers have confirmed that British nationals with dual nationalities can "serve in legitimately recognised armed forces of the country of their other nationalities".
At the same meeting, Mr Ali is alleged to have blamed "people in the media from certain Jewish quarters" for the suspension of MP Andy McDonald from Labour.

 

[1D54]

The honeymoon of the inevitable victory coming their way at the GE will last a month at best. I'll get my popcorn and tell everyone within earshot that things were not that bad after all!

 

[birchesgreen]

The honeymoon of the inevitable victory coming their way at the GE will last a month at best. I'll get my popcorn and tell everyone within earshot that things were not that bad after all!

Because the last lot will leave things in such a terrible state? Well enjoy your popcorn but seems an odd thing to gain pleasure over.

 

[1D54]

Blair used the 'what we inherited' line for years to cover his failures and doubtless the incumbents to number 10 will use the same spiel. Not really getting pleasure out of it, I've been a Conservative voter all my life but will be protesting in the shape of Reform this time around.

 

[ainsworth74]

Blair used the 'what we inherited' line for years to cover his failures and doubtless the incumbents to number 10 will use the same spiel.

I'm sure I've heard Tories using the same excuse recently despite being in power for fourteen years

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm sure I've heard Tories using the same excuse recently despite being in power for fourteen years

Sunak was blaming Labour for being unable to pass his desired legislation. Amazing how powerful the opposition is, don't know why they bother to compete in the election!

 

[HullRailMan]

That'll be this one, at least in this case they've acted much faster and it's for a GE seat, not a by-election, so there is time to make adjustments:

Labour suspends second candidate Graham Jones after recording emerges

Graham Jones, a former Labour MP, is facing an investigation over comments he allegedly made about Israel.

www.bbc.co.uk

Classic anti-Jewish rhetoric from both gentlemen, which Labour has only acted on once it’s become public. This was a meeting of Labour members where the rhetoric wasn’t challenged, presumably because the room agreed with it. Still, the usual people will continue to tell us Labour (and the left) don’t have an issue with Jews.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This proves one thing to me above all else. The Labour party has not changed, will not change, and is wholly incapable of changing. The current clown of a leader and Circus performer of a deputy leader who incidentally has more chips on her shoulder than a branch of McDonald's are simply a warm and cuddly front parachuted in to rebuild a reputation that they are undeserving of and now that this is emerging it all makes sense
I've personally growing increasingly suspicious at a party that wants to change so much and yet doesn't actually have any credible plans as to how they're going to do it and most of all pay for it other than a few petty obsessions like non Dom status and who continue to flip flop more than a beach wear salesman in the summer

I agree that none of the alternatives are any better but this really stinks to me

Sorry if it sounds harsh but this is just my opinion, you will have found me in other political party threads expressing similarly strong opinions

 

[Bantamzen]

This proves one thing to me above all else. The Labour party has not changed, will not change, and is wholly incapable of changing. The current clown of a leader and Circus performer of a deputy leader who incidentally has more chips on her shoulder than a branch of McDonald's are simply a warm and cuddly front parachuted in to rebuild a reputation that they are undeserving of and now that this is emerging it all makes sense
I've personally growing increasingly suspicious at a party that wants to change so much and yet doesn't actually have any credible plans as to how they're going to do it and most of all pay for it other than a few petty obsessions like non Dom status and who continue to flip flop more than a beach wear salesman in the summer

I agree that none of the alternatives are any better but this really stinks to me

Sorry if it sounds harsh but this is just my opinion, you will have found me in other political party threads expressing similarly strong opinions

I agree with your sentiment, Labour are no more capable of running the show than the Tories, indeed they might turn out to be even worse if some of the performances of Labour councils is anything to go by. And this is coming from a dyed in the wool Labour supporter for most of my life. They are just a mess of half-arsed opinions and policies, point scoring, and Starmer is already performing so many u-turns someone may need to install him with reversing lights and an audio warning sound....

But sadly as pointed out just above, Labour have the cover of the Tory party's recent performance to hide behind for at least one term.

 

[deltic]

I don't see why Jones' comments are seen as anti-Semitic. He was criticising Israel's actions ie decisions made by its present government. Many Israelis also strongly criticise its present government. Our government has changed its stance on Israeli actions since the initial terrorist attack from whole hearted support to challenging their actions in Gaza. eg quote from the Guardian

David Cameron said he has 'personally' challenged the Israeli government over the conduct of its assault on Gaza during questions in the House of Lords. The foreign secretary told members of the upper chamber: 'I’ve done that personally with them over, for instance, a building that was bombed that had UK medics and other charities in, and we will continue to do that as part of the very important process that we go through to judge whether they are in compliance with international humanitarian law'.

However Labour are past masters at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!

 

[DustyBin]

This proves one thing to me above all else. The Labour party has not changed, will not change, and is wholly incapable of changing. The current clown of a leader and Circus performer of a deputy leader who incidentally has more chips on her shoulder than a branch of McDonald's are simply a warm and cuddly front parachuted in to rebuild a reputation that they are undeserving of and now that this is emerging it all makes sense
I've personally growing increasingly suspicious at a party that wants to change so much and yet doesn't actually have any credible plans as to how they're going to do it and most of all pay for it other than a few petty obsessions like non Dom status and who continue to flip flop more than a beach wear salesman in the summer

I agree that none of the alternatives are any better but this really stinks to me

Sorry if it sounds harsh but this is just my opinion, you will have found me in other political party threads expressing similarly strong opinions

I agree with your sentiment, Labour are no more capable of running the show than the Tories, indeed they might turn out to be even worse if some of the performances of Labour councils is anything to go by. And this is coming from a dyed in the wool Labour supporter for most of my life. They are just a mess of half-arsed opinions and policies, point scoring, and Starmer is already performing so many u-turns someone may need to install him with reversing lights and an audio warning sound....

But sadly as pointed out just above, Labour have the cover of the Tory party's recent performance to hide behind for at least one term.

My political allegiance is fairly well known, so whilst it will come as no surprise that I wholeheartedly agree with you both, I won’t be voting Tory either.

I’m not entirely comfortable with registering a protest vote at such a critical time, but I don’t feel as though I have a choice.

 

[brad465]

This proves one thing to me above all else. The Labour party has not changed, will not change, and is wholly incapable of changing. The current clown of a leader and Circus performer of a deputy leader who incidentally has more chips on her shoulder than a branch of McDonald's are simply a warm and cuddly front parachuted in to rebuild a reputation that they are undeserving of and now that this is emerging it all makes sense
I've personally growing increasingly suspicious at a party that wants to change so much and yet doesn't actually have any credible plans as to how they're going to do it and most of all pay for it other than a few petty obsessions like non Dom status and who continue to flip flop more than a beach wear salesman in the summer

I agree that none of the alternatives are any better but this really stinks to me

Sorry if it sounds harsh but this is just my opinion, you will have found me in other political party threads expressing similarly strong opinions

I hate to break it to you, but based on the opinions you've expressed here and before, plus maybe also the part of the country you live in, I doubt you are ever a voter Labour try to target. Thanks to our FPTP system neither Tories or Labour usually need over 50% of the vote to win power, so voters beyond their reach will just be ignored, and also most of those voting for Labour or the Tories are not actually voting for them, but against the other. This is why, despite everything going on, Labour are still polling around 20 points ahead, even though Starmer also has negative approval ratings. (For the record I'm not a party member of any party but I am a member and campaign speaker for a PR system campaign group, so I consider this situation a serious issue).

I agree with your sentiment, Labour are no more capable of running the show than the Tories, indeed they might turn out to be even worse if some of the performances of Labour councils is anything to go by. And this is coming from a dyed in the wool Labour supporter for most of my life. They are just a mess of half-arsed opinions and policies, point scoring, and Starmer is already performing so many u-turns someone may need to install him with reversing lights and an audio warning sound....

But sadly as pointed out just above, Labour have the cover of the Tory party's recent performance to hide behind for at least one term.

Really we need a ton of political reforms that clean up politics, lead to better choice and accountability. PR voting should be the main one IMO, but also MPs/politicians need to be banned form having second jobs while an MP, and face jail time for far more acts of misconduct than is currently the case. At the moment they seem to be able to get away with a suspension from the house for a set period, which may also lead to a P45 if they're unlucky, for offences that were it anyone else would be an arrest, trial and if guilty time behind bars. If MPs pay has to significantly increase in exchange for tougher standards on the job, so be it, we could probably pay for it by cutting down the number of them and slashing the size of the Lords in the process. I don't see Labour doing any of this next term, so maybe we need a prolonged protest outside Parliament of a few million upwards to demand it.

 

[jfollows]

My political allegiance is fairly well known, so whilst it will come as no surprise that I wholeheartedly agree with you both, I won’t be voting Tory either.

I’m not entirely comfortable with registering a protest vote at such a critical time, but I don’t feel as though I have a choice.

I'm probably with you on this, I will be voting against the Conservatives at the next election, which means a vote for the Labour candidate in Tatton.
However the Labour party is getting itself into a mess, and it's not appealing. The abandonment of the "commitment" to invest £28bn a year is a major problem to me - it sends me the message that Labour isn't different plus Labour can't make hard decisions. The continuing problems with anti-semitism are additional to that, for me, and seem to show that at its heart Labour hasn't changed, it's not about right versus left but that some of its members/candidates/MPs are troglodytes of the worst sort and won't go away.
So I'll vote tactically next time, for sure, but I have my doubts about voting Labour again once they're in power.

 

[DarloRich]

I've been a Conservative voter all my life but will be protesting in the shape of Reform this time around.

What are reform offering you that the current "Conservative" party wont? IF Labour win the election the "Conservative" party will do what they always do and lurch further right.

This proves one thing to me above all else. The Labour party has not changed, will not change, and is wholly incapable of changing. The current clown of a leader and Circus performer of a deputy leader who incidentally has more chips on her shoulder than a branch of McDonald's are simply a warm and cuddly front parachuted in to rebuild a reputation that they are undeserving of and now that this is emerging it all makes sense
I've personally growing increasingly suspicious at a party that wants to change so much and yet doesn't actually have any credible plans as to how they're going to do it and most of all pay for it other than a few petty obsessions like non Dom status and who continue to flip flop more than a beach wear salesman in the summer

I agree that none of the alternatives are any better but this really stinks to me

Sorry if it sounds harsh but this is just my opinion, you will have found me in other political party threads expressing similarly strong opinions

What on earth are you talking about? This is just ranty nonsense. The change in Labour under Starmer is clear. There is still work to do but compared to Corbyn things are a million times better!

People rejected Corbyn. They didn't think he was a credible PM. They chose Johnson instead. We don't need anymore of that thank you!

But sadly as pointed out just above, Labour have the cover of the Tory party's recent performance to hide behind for at least one term.

We have to be honest: the Corbyinist crankism of the last two elections has failed to deliver victory. Instead it delivered Johnson and this clown show. We need a sensible, boring, middle of the road strategy to win an election and get into power. No complacency, no risk, no hostage to fortune and no scaring the horses!

I KNOW for the more left wing Labour types that isn't radical enough but I just wish they would take a mature, sensible approach and help get Labour into power rather than help the Tories gain more power. It is almost as if they LIKE the undergraduate ideological purity of opposition rather than the compromises of power.

Personally, I would prefer to control things rather than shout about them. The crank left got Corbyn and his clown army into leadership positions and it was disastrous for both the Labour party and the UK - We ( as in all of us) cant afford anymore mistakes.

I’m not entirely comfortable with registering a protest vote at such a critical time, but I don’t feel as though I have a choice.

As above: A Reform shaped protest vote will only deliver a Reform shaped "Conservative" party.

 

[Gloster]

I understand that Starmer, and possibly Reeves, have been allowed to talk to civil servants since the beginning of the year. I wonder if this means that they have been able to see just how awful the financial situation and prospects are, even ignoring any attempt to trash the joint by the Conservatives before they go. They are therefore pulling back in order to avoid having to break their promises as soon as they get into government, if they do. Better to get the unpleasant decisions over now, while the Conservatives are hogging the bad headlines (current couple of days excepted), than have do it once they are centre stage.

 

[nw1]

The honeymoon of the inevitable victory coming their way at the GE will last a month at best. I'll get my popcorn and tell everyone within earshot that things were not that bad after all!

So you think that this is enough to lose Labour the general election?

Doubtful I'd say. Might drop their ratings in the polls a little for a week or two, but doubt it'll have a long-term effect.

And do you not understand how bad it would be if the Tories won yet again?

It would be 20 solid years, more or less, of rule by one party. And a party that never got even 45% of the vote. That really is obscene. Essentially we'd be well on the way to becoming a de-facto one-party state of the Singapore kind.

If the Tories win this year, when at their least popular since the 90s, it's likely they'll just win again, and again, and again. And the UK will turn into a very unpleasant place, utterly dominated by right-wing politics, where people with liberal and left-wing views have no voice whatsoever, long-term.

 

[DarloRich]

However the Labour party is getting itself into a mess, and it's not appealing. The abandonment of the "commitment" to invest £28bn a year is a major problem to me - it sends me the message that Labour isn't different plus Labour can't make hard decisions.

BUT: Making a hard decision is EXACTLY what they have done here! They have said we cant afford this plan. I thought Wes Streeting dealt with it well on Question Time.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’m not entirely comfortable with registering a protest vote at such a critical time, but I don’t feel as though I have a choice.

To be honest, I'm taking the party out of the decision when the time comes and instead focus on the candidates. The one that demonstrates best their knowledge of both local and national issues, and how they see the solutions being implemented will be most likely to get my 'X' on the voting slip. So it could be any party, I'm no longer concerned whom they represent but how they will drive any change.

Really we need a ton of political reforms that clean up politics, lead to better choice and accountability. PR voting should be the main one IMO, but also MPs/politicians need to be banned form having second jobs while an MP, and face jail time for far more acts of misconduct than is currently the case. At the moment they seem to be able to get away with a suspension from the house for a set period, which may also lead to a P45 if they're unlucky, for offences that were it anyone else would be an arrest, trial and if guilty time behind bars. If MPs pay has to significantly increase in exchange for tougher standards on the job, so be it, we could probably pay for it by cutting down the number of them and slashing the size of the Lords in the process. I don't see Labour doing any of this next term, so maybe we need a prolonged protest outside Parliament of a few million upwards to demand it.

I don't disagree, change is needed but I don't think that will happen in Westminster Square. As I've alluded to above, its the quality of the candidates moving forward that will drive change inside the Houses. I fear that these days we (as in the voting public) often don't really vote on the issues anymore, but focus on party & personality. Which is why various idiots have risen to the top, they've been louder than everyone else even if their substance is questionable, if existent at all. We need to get our candidates / MPs working harder on the ground again, and vote for people who can actually do the work asked of them.

Failing that, then it's torches & pitchforks time...

 

[nw1]

Classic anti-Jewish rhetoric from both gentlemen, which Labour has only acted on once it’s become public. This was a meeting of Labour members where the rhetoric wasn’t challenged, presumably because the room agreed with it. Still, the usual people will continue to tell us Labour (and the left) don’t have an issue with Jews.

And the left, as a whole, don't. They have a problem with the mistreatment of Palestinians. Big difference.

One room is scarcely representative of the entire Labour Party. And it really is a disgusting and libellous slur to associate the left as a whole (rather than certain members of the left) with anti-Semitism, and to infer that there are few or no anti-Semites on the right.

Remind me of which wing appeared to make anti-Semitic jibes against a former leader of the Labour Party? Was it the left, or the right?

Furthermore the only genuine and actual anti-Semite I've met in my life was a fully paid up Tory, Brexit supporter and was constantly having a go at Sinn Fein. Scarcely good left-wing credentials.

I'm probably with you on this, I will be voting against the Conservatives at the next election, which means a vote for the Labour candidate in Tatton.
However the Labour party is getting itself into a mess, and it's not appealing. The abandonment of the "commitment" to invest £28bn a year is a major problem to me - it sends me the message that Labour isn't different plus Labour can't make hard decisions. The continuing problems with anti-semitism are additional to that, for me, and seem to show that at its heart Labour hasn't changed, it's not about right versus left but that some of its members/candidates/MPs are troglodytes of the worst sort and won't go away.
So I'll vote tactically next time, for sure, but I have my doubts about voting Labour again once they're in power.

What would your take be on the likely effect on the results of the coming election? (And anyone else for that matter).

While I think it's unlikely, I hope all this will not cause the Tories to win yet again. As I said above that would be very disturbing to me.

 

[jfollows]

What would your take be on the likely effect on the results of the coming election? (And anyone else for that matter).

While I think it's unlikely, I hope all this will not cause the Tories to win yet again. As I said above that would be very disturbing to me.

I believe and expect Labour to win a large majority, because people are voting - like me - against the Conservatives as much as for Labour. I don't think the current mess is going to affect Labour's position significantly.