Ken to cut tube fares...

[richardderby]

Ken Livingstone has pledged to cut fares on the tube by 5% and then freeze them for the next few years, much better perhaps, than Boris's plan to increase fares substantially for years to come. Fares Fair...

 

[ainsworth74]

But will this be funded via an effective cut to the tubes budget (less fare revenue) or via an increased contribution from the tax payers (so everyone's paying more anyway)?

There's no such thing a free lunch...

 

[junglejames]

Taking away the cost of any major works, which are never going to cover their costs, does the tube turn a profit? Im sure it must do.
So perhaps he just wants to reduce the profit!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

For some reason I never really considered that the tube would turn a profit, not sure why. But even if it did seeing as it's in effectively state hands that profit would presumably go towards cross-subsidising something else that TfL owns/operates (unless TfL as a whole turns a profit) such as helping to pay for major construction work elsewhere.

 

[Metrailway]

LUL made a surplus of about £3 million in 2001. Since then it has made a loss every year of about £100 million, presumably due to the large investment. In 2009, it made a surplus of about £750 million, but in 2010, it was a loss of about £750 million. The large anomalies of 2009 and 2010 are probably due to the take over of Tube Lines.

 

[Greenback]

It's difficult to know whether an organisation makes a profit or not. Much seems dependent on the accounting practices used.

 

[Schnellzug]

i've lost track of how it's all organised now. Who were Metronet, as seen on some GBRf 66s? Didn't they go bust years ago? And who were Tube Lines?

Anyway, if Ken is going to make another Populist gesture (and why's he popped up again? Is he running for President- Mayor again? I'm sorry, i've completely lost touch with London politics), who does he expect to pay for all the improvements I'm sure he'll also promise?

 

[ReverendFozz]

What exactly is TfLs status, are they a public company or private company? And how does that affect how TfL, I dont see how TfL could not be profitable, The Tube itself must be raking in millions on it's own, but I aint got a good head for business, I dont quite understand how it works

 

[Mike395]

What exactly is TfLs status, are they a public company or private company? And how does that affect how TfL, I dont see how TfL could not be profitable, The Tube itself must be raking in millions on it's own, but I aint got a good head for business, I dont quite understand how it works

TfL is under the direct control of City Hall, which means it's a Government entity

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not being cynical, but is the Labour Party Conference being held this week anything to do with the announcement of future "good news".:roll:

 

[Deerfold]

What exactly is TfLs status, are they a public company or private company? And how does that affect how TfL, I dont see how TfL could not be profitable, The Tube itself must be raking in millions on it's own, but I aint got a good head for business, I dont quite understand how it works

The tube generally makes a loss. Buses run at a loss every year since a couple in the early 2000s. Not sure where TfL's profits are going to come from...

 

[Metrailway]

What exactly is TfLs status, are they a public company or private company? And how does that affect how TfL, I dont see how TfL could not be profitable, The Tube itself must be raking in millions on it's own, but I aint got a good head for business, I dont quite understand how it works

LU have a huge turnover but it is very hard for them to make a profit, as it has to run an intense service not just at peaks but all day long. Despite transporting over a billion users every year, most of the services it runs during off-peak have plenty of empty seats.

London Buses make a massive loss as well.

 

[jon0844]

But it's arguably a price well worth paying, as the convenience of being able to travel freely 24/7 probably makes London a place where people want to be (and visit, work, invest in etc).

 

[ivanhoe]

But it's arguably a price well worth paying, as the convenience of being able to travel freely 24/7 probably makes London a place where people want to be (and visit, work, invest in etc).

And this gives London a huge advantage over our Regions where we have little control over Buses and to a lesser extent our trains. Time for a level playing field if our Regions are going to ease the pressure on Londons infrastructure.

 

[John55]

The funding for TfL is not the most straightforward thing in the world but the budget for 2011 - 2012 has the following numbers.

..............................................Income............Op exp..........Capital exp

London Overground/DLR/tram..........205...............338.................185

Tube..........................................2099..............2323...............1472

Surface (bus/river etc).................1715..............2645................220

Crossrail..............................................................................1098

The above numbers are not complete as I have just extracted some interesting numbers, for example there is £400 million in central financing charges not included above.

Also note you cannot extract profit/loss from above as non operation costs are not detailed.

Total spending above income is £5.25 billion. This is funded by £6 million from council tax payers and most of the rest by direct Treasury Grant (ie national taxpayer).

What Livingstone is talking about is the projected end of year cash balance of £1.7 billion.

What isn't detailed in the 2011 -2012 budget is any expected expenditure in 2012 - 2013 when there may be lots of big bills for Crossrail and other projects to pay.

 

[Deerfold]

LU have a huge turnover but it is very hard for them to make a profit, as it has to run an intense service not just at peaks but all day long. Despite transporting over a billion users every year, most of the services it runs during off-peak have plenty of empty seats.

London Buses make a massive loss as well.

A billion by tube, another 3 billion by bus...

 

[Schnellzug]

So in the end, taxpayers in Newcastle, Liverpool and Plymouth are paying for (he hopes) Mayor Ken's utopian ideals.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its unlikely the Government would approve any extra subsidy for Tfl, it would have to come from cuts or increased council taxes. Central Government already gives Tfl a billion a year to pay for the operating costs (not capital costs) of the Tube. And while Tube and Rail costs are reasonably high compared to national average there are some anomalies such as Croydon Tramlink charging tiny fares to boost ridership numbers.

 

[142094]

But it's arguably a price well worth paying, as the convenience of being able to travel freely 24/7 probably makes London a place where people want to be (and visit, work, invest in etc).

Of course, plus a fares decrease (never thought I'd be saying that), may actually attract people from their cars and therefore less congestion.

There has to be some sort of weighing up of the small visible loss to revenue against the potentially high gains which may not be visible or that immediately spring to mind.

 

[Mojo]

So in the end, taxpayers in Newcastle, Liverpool and Plymouth are paying for (he hopes) Mayor Ken's utopian ideals.

It's not as easy to say as that. The PTEs also receive subsidies too. As London and the South East gives more money to the regions than it takes back in then it's probably fair to say that London taxpayers are paying for it

 

[WatcherZero]

It's not as easy to say as that. The PTEs also receive subsidies too. As London and the South East gives more money to the regions than it takes back in then it's probably fair to say that London taxpayers are paying for it

Problem is tax revenue per person is 30% higher in the South and London but Government transport spending is 400% higher.

 

[island]

TfL is under the direct control of City Hall, which means it's a Government entity

And can be FOIed

 

[OxtedL]

Although supposedly spending on things other than transport is comparatively low in the South East.

I can't remember where I read that, I'll get back to you.

 

[NightatLaira]

has Ken said anything about the proposed Northern line spur to Battersea?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

TfL is under the direct control of City Hall, which means it's a Government entity

And can be FOIed

Which is a good thing too!

 

[TheWalrus]

Sounds like bs! Political bs

 

[shinkansen1966]

So in the end, taxpayers in Newcastle, Liverpool and Plymouth are paying for (he hopes) Mayor Ken's utopian ideals.

Remind me...

Exactly who paid when Metronet collapsed ? Metronet was set up under Labour's Private Public Partnership to repair the Tube.

To what extent was this Labour PPP a 'utopian ideal'. And were the courts right to block Ken Livingstone request to have money needed to repair the Tube raised by bonds rather under Mr Prescott's PPP ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Problem is tax revenue per person is 30% higher in the South and London but Government transport spending is 400% higher.

And look the quality of public transport in London compared with the rest of the country:

• better frequencies and round the clock services
• smart card technology
• real time information at bus stops
• onboard GPS activated announcements
• £1.30 city wide flat fare with Oyster card

 

[IanXC]

And this gives London a huge advantage over our Regions where we have little control over Buses and to a lesser extent our trains. Time for a level playing field if our Regions are going to ease the pressure on Londons infrastructure.

But don't you remember? We voted against having our own Assemblies... :roll:

And look the quality of public transport in London compared with the rest of the country:

• better frequencies and round the clock services
• smart card technology
• real time information at bus stops
• onboard GPS activated announcements
• £1.30 city wide flat fare with Oyster card

I really should stop reading these kinds of posts they just wind me up!

I can't even take a 3 minute train journey to the next village for less than £2.30!

 

[Schnellzug]

And look the quality of public transport in London compared with the rest of the country:

• better frequencies and round the clock services
• smart card technology
• real time information at bus stops
• onboard GPS activated announcements
• £1.30 city wide flat fare with Oyster card

Then i do wish people* would stop moaning about it.

*Not on this forum, necessarily, I mean People.


If it is so awesome, incidentally, how come, every single day, some part of the Choob breaks down somewhere, though? And why does each new Mayor decide that what London needs is his idea for a New Bus for London, thousands of which are introduced at the generosity of the taxpayer, and then replaced with something else when the next Mayor comes in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
**



Anyway, these Oyster Cards are all very well, but they're only any use if you live there, or work or visit frequently; if you just visit from time to time you have to either go down to the Tube station (at midnight) to get a £6-something travelcard, since Mayor Boris seems to have scrapped the useful Bus pass; that or pay £1.30 for a couple of stops on a Bus; and then you can't just hop on the first bus that comes along, oh now, you have to get a Ticket from a machine on the pavement, since that's so much quicker, more convenient and more efficient.

 

[Greenback]

Anyway, these Oyster Cards are all very well, but they're only any use if you live there, or work or visit frequently; if you just visit from time to time you have to either go down to the Tube station (at midnight) to get a £6-something travelcard, since Mayor Boris seems to have scrapped the useful Bus pass; that or pay £1.30 for a couple of stops on a Bus; and then you can't just hop on the first bus that comes along, oh now, you have to get a Ticket from a machine on the pavement, since that's so much quicker, more convenient and more efficient.

I think you might be a tad over critical here!

I only visit London once or twice a year, yet I have a PAYG Oyster that I haven't needed to top up yet! I find it very convenient for my purposes, though I may not be so keen if it didn't provide such a saving on the cash fares!