I don’t think it would take them too long to work out. And all that needs is a bit of paint on the floor to say where the doors will be.
Have a good enough service and you’ll only have a few people boarding at any one time.
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Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders
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I don’t think it would take them too long to work out. And all that needs is a bit of paint on the floor to say where the doors will be.
Have a good enough service and you’ll only have a few people boarding at any one time.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is it worth having a non-standard arrangement? Won't that cost more than just building a standard Euro-tramway? The advantages of doing that have shown in both Croydon and Birmingham where they were able to just buy off the shelf standard low-floor trams (full replacement in Birmingham's case, just a few extras for Croydon) from a very competitive market, presumably at a very good price. It's one of the great advantages of conversion - we move from a bespoke rolling stock market to a fully standardised one, with the associated significant long term cost savings.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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- 4,923
Oh come on, such a statement is meaningless. IF (and its a big if) a light rail system is done right, doesn't increase journey times (due to on street running through congested streets) etc etc, then yes it could be popular and successful. If it is done poorly, increases journey times, gives passengers a worse experience than they have now, then sorry no I would not call that successful. But this discussion has been had multiple times elsewhere.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Given we cant run trains down the Conwy Valley at the moment due to unit shortages and the Cambrian has been suffering from short formed trains for around 10 days now where does the stock come from?
cactustwirly
Established Member
The magic rolling stock tree?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
ANNOUNCEMENT ALERT
The big suites are supposedly in either Trefforest or Nantgarw on Monday for an announcement.
The big suites are supposedly in either Trefforest or Nantgarw on Monday for an announcement.
I'll get the buzzword bingo cards ready.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Well we all know its going to be apolitical announcement not a transport one.
Welsh Labour must be seen to be doing something for the Valleys (even if there not) so a its a trip a few miles up the Taff valley not anywhere to close to the deprived residential areas. The media will be tried to be managed into focusing on themes like "made in Wales" "jobs for the Valleys" "investment by Welsh Government" "economic regeneration" and the other well worn self congratulatory superlatives about transformation, world class etc. The shiny new Metro is coming to the Valleys will be the message. Of course we all know the shiny new metro is only coming to a few valleys not all of them...............................
Of course the detail is what we all want to know not the spin. My friends form the Talyllyn have just been in and there comment is is there life beyond Cardiff and the Valleys? Two Thirds of Wales population do not live in SE Wales and the Border Counties add another million.......
World Class
A Shiny Smile from Ken
It'll take time
Increase in passenger numbers
World Class
Exciting
Nothing about guards on the metro
England
Despite the efforts of Westminster
World Class
Nothing about timescales for new trains
Another shiny smile
If you were building a light rail system from scratch you'd be massively unlikely to use high floor unless it had to co-exist with any existing high floor services or there was high floor infrastructure you couldn't / was impractical to change (e.g. underground stations)
High floor is undesirable because it's "non-standard" and yes, you can build high platforms on streets, but they're a pain - see Manchester city centre for numerous examples of why!
Doors at different heights is a an awful idea, not just for the awkwardness of boarding in different places, but also alighting. The interior would be at different heights, so you'd have to walk up/down steps inside to exit which would be a nightmare at busy times, and impossible for wheelchair or pram users...
San Francisco's light rail "solves" the problem with movable interior steps, but it's a rubbish solution - high level platform stations are fully accessible, some are hybrid on-street stops where one door of the train will be level, the others steps, while other stops have no infrastructure at all and are completely inaccessible to those who can't use steps. Here's a video of the changeover:
I think the sensible influencer of the choice should be whether or not any platforms will be shared by light and heavy rail either now, or in the future - is it sensible to prevent it from happening in the future? If not, you'd make it low floor and you wouldn't lower existing heavy rail platforms, you'd raise the trackbed which should be easier and cheaper.
Only one of Metrolink's extensions involved closing an existing line and "starting again" - Oldham + Rochdale over the old Oldham Loop line. Rochdale itself still had service to Manchester, which wouldn't be the case for any of the valley lines, and being valleys the journey options between them are limited. The reason the new bits of Metrolink look new is they are new!
No they don't, they have bus shelters everywhere other than on island platforms (mostly at terminuses) which have centrally supported canopies, just like every part of Metrolink including the oldest bits. They're functional, but the stops are generally bleak, barren or both. There's nothing romantically continental, or particularly world class, about them.
EDIT: Moderators, could this post be moved to the South Wales Metro thread please? Apologies for taking this thread off topic. Or if not, I'll happily delete it. Thank you.
High floor is undesirable because it's "non-standard" and yes, you can build high platforms on streets, but they're a pain - see Manchester city centre for numerous examples of why!
Doors at different heights is a an awful idea, not just for the awkwardness of boarding in different places, but also alighting. The interior would be at different heights, so you'd have to walk up/down steps inside to exit which would be a nightmare at busy times, and impossible for wheelchair or pram users...
San Francisco's light rail "solves" the problem with movable interior steps, but it's a rubbish solution - high level platform stations are fully accessible, some are hybrid on-street stops where one door of the train will be level, the others steps, while other stops have no infrastructure at all and are completely inaccessible to those who can't use steps. Here's a video of the changeover:
I think the sensible influencer of the choice should be whether or not any platforms will be shared by light and heavy rail either now, or in the future - is it sensible to prevent it from happening in the future? If not, you'd make it low floor and you wouldn't lower existing heavy rail platforms, you'd raise the trackbed which should be easier and cheaper.
Only one of Metrolink's extensions involved closing an existing line and "starting again" - Oldham + Rochdale over the old Oldham Loop line. Rochdale itself still had service to Manchester, which wouldn't be the case for any of the valley lines, and being valleys the journey options between them are limited. The reason the new bits of Metrolink look new is they are new!
No they don't, they have bus shelters everywhere other than on island platforms (mostly at terminuses) which have centrally supported canopies, just like every part of Metrolink including the oldest bits. They're functional, but the stops are generally bleak, barren or both. There's nothing romantically continental, or particularly world class, about them.
EDIT: Moderators, could this post be moved to the South Wales Metro thread please? Apologies for taking this thread off topic. Or if not, I'll happily delete it. Thank you.
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That's your opinion but it categorically is not the fact that they are high platforms that makes them so. Low platforms on a light rail valleys metro does not make sense and would be very difficult to migrate to, potentially requiring long closures. High floor is easy you just keep running today's dmus while you have shorter overnight and weekend closures for ongoing electrification work, then you phase in the new vehicles as the lines are complete. Once the dmus have all gone then the work to provide new passing loops etc can begin in the upper valleys.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You totally miss the point - all the platforms on the Oldham line are new-build. They are high because the rest of Metrolink is high platformed (I bet they regret that now). It would have been both cheaper and quicker to do low platforms for Oldham because all the old infrastructure was removed before building anything.
I don't miss the point. I knew very well they were all new construction, I just doubt the cost difference is THAT high in proportion to all the other work that was carried out, and in any case they had little choice in Manchester as the standard had already been set. What mmh said was that the new stops on the Rochdale extension are all bleak and barren. I disagree with that as I'm sure you do, but whether they're high or low platforms has absolutely nothing to do any such impression.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I think there's posts on here that need to go to a different home now.
I agree they should be in the metro thread
Yes, mods need to do a clean up of this thread and move posts over.
I honestly thought they'd be making the announcement somewhere outside of SE Wales, to deliberately make the point that this franchise won't all be about Cardiff and the Valleys.
Obviously if that's the perception that people get, it doesn't bother them. Because it's the reality anyway.
I honestly thought they'd be making the announcement somewhere outside of SE Wales, to deliberately make the point that this franchise won't all be about Cardiff and the Valleys.
Obviously if that's the perception that people get, it doesn't bother them. Because it's the reality anyway.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I had it from a RuG source who had it from someone who had been invited to the event the RUG not being. Which seems right for WG they obviously don't want anyone asking awkward questions present!
I had an out of office from a source who might have confirmed it.
WatcherZero
Established Member
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They are what used to be known as 70% low floor trams (and other minor variations on that figure) where entrances were at or near street level but the technology hadn't been developed for low floor bogies so the area over the axles was higher and involved a step up, similar to buses.
Low floor tram bogies are essentially two separate half bogies with low central structural elements connecting them and allow the passenger to essentially walk through the middle of them and you can cover the remaining components wit for example longitudal seating .
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That isn't how I read @sw1ller's post. I read it as having two low floor vehicles (_) and two high floor vehicles (=) - each with their own doors - in a consist like so: =__=. A 70% low floor tram wouldn't be suitable for a system with "Platform height" and "street height", and that is before you get to practical considerations like the 600mm* odd difference between the two levels that you'd need to accommodate.
*working from a 300mm ARL tram platform and a 900mm ARL heavy rail platform
WatcherZero
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Well some double decker carriages in Canada and Colorado have had low doors and high doors when serving differing height platforms.
e.g.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/AMTLucienLallier.jpg
The low doors empty directly in to the lower level while the higher doors have steps up onto the second floor.
e.g.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/AMTLucienLallier.jpg
The low doors empty directly in to the lower level while the higher doors have steps up onto the second floor.
I'm not usually the thread police but there is a dedicated thread for anything to do with the 'South Wales Metro' over in Infrastructure & Stations. This thread is meant to be for general discussion of the wider franchise across Wales, as believe it or not, the new franchise isn't just about Cardiff & the Valleys..........
I can't imagine the dwell times of those could be described as 'metro' though?
Tumbleweed
Member
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- 166
It will be at Coleg Y Cymoedd Nantgarw next Monday. I only know because I work there! El Presidente himself will be attending.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Not an easy place to get to by rail!
25 to 30 minute walk from Taffs Well or Trefforest Estate. Stagecoach bus from Pontypridd or Cardiff. I seem to recall its about a 40/45 grind on Stagecoach from Cardiff Bus station?
No doubt the Ministerial Car(s) will be used.
Doesn't Coleg Y Cymoedd do some sort of rail infrastructure training there?
How ironic. You can't see Ken, Carwyn and all the other big suits getting on a 153 at the Bay, transferring to a Pacer at Queen St, then getting a bus from Trefforest Estate? And again in reverse to go back?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Treforest Estate may be slightly nearer but only every other train calls there so half hourly service.
Nowhere near world class enough for the minister.
To answer my earlier question:
http://www.cymoedd.ac.uk/employers/...ng/railway-training-centre-of-excellence.aspx
iantherev
Member
Bus station? That went a few years back in another transforming initiative. Any way the Stagecoach Gold 132 from Cardiff passes Taffs Well station.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
The muddy path down from the station into the Estate might ruin their suits!
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