Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[Bletchleyite]

The Central - Lime Street shuffle isn't insurmountable, but re-aligning the Northern Line to platforms at Lime Street low level would have been preferrable to shoving through the old (and now inadequate in capacity) Mersey Railway island platform at Central, which BR / Merseytravel seemed to.feel the need to 'use up', like.my dad with the last fragment of margarine in the tub. I suspect that single-station connections feel handier to the average passenger, even if, in reality, they involve a long walk underground.

I think you mean "hugely costly".

What they probably should have done was while they had Central Low Level opened out was enlarged the station box and put a second island in, but I don't think they even came close to anticipating the level of demand there - I think they thought Moorfields would be busy, but in practice until Liverpool One the centre of gravity of the main retail bit of the city centre has been at the Central end, and Liverpool One has only moved it a bit closer to James St rather than usefully close to Moorfields.

Even now there's near enough nowt on top (a car park, a run down 1980s shopping centre that needs flattening anyway, a couple of industrial units and the somewhat nondescript station building itself) so that wouldn't be an insurmountably expensive thing to do - much easier and cheaper than re-tunnelling. There's even a header tunnel running parallel to the platforms which provides a start to be opened out.

I do see your point about same station connections - but I'm not sure the walk from Lime St to Central (taking me about 6-7 minutes platform to platform, 8 with a quick stop for a wee at Central first) is *that* much further than Manchester Picc concourse to P13/14. But isn't it cheaper (in Cardiff's case) to fight those perceptions than pander to them, when perceptions is all they are?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Here we go already !

We can't possibly have 'proper' trams (like most other sensible operations abroad), we have to stick to Heavy Rail, high platform, 'Big Train' infrastructure - because we couldn't possibly imagine allowing them to venture into a street anywhere.......

Oh, and guess what, all our heavy rail infrastructure then needs signalling modifications, upgrades, double tracking etc etc

You really couldn't make this up !

So the reason I was talking about heavy rail infrastructure is that it is already decided that the tram-trains on the valleys will run to heavy rail standards.
In terms of street running, as I have said time and time again, for serving new areas that is great. Where you don't already have the heavy rail infrastructure, running tram-trains as trams there is the best way to start serving those areas. But using it as a cheap fix so you don't have to spend money on infrastructure where heavy rail already exists is just lazy, will introduce congestion and will increase journey times (have you seen how busy the main routes from the valleys to Cardiff get in the rush hour, try sticking a tram on those streets and see how long your journey suddenly becomes).

out of interest... how important is the link between the Valleys lines and Cardiff Central. Surely, with it's proximity to the shops/ offices the busiest place for boarding/ alighting on the Valleys lines is Queen Street? why the fixation that any service into Cardiff must serve Central? Certainly the Bay line doesn't suffer by not going into Central stn

Well apart from the fact Central is the interchange with the mainline, severing that connection would inconvenience a lot of people (indeed I'm unhappy that the extra 2tph on the valleys will be going to the Bay rather than Central). You have the fact that a lot of new offices are going up around Cardiff Central station, the fact the Millennium Stadium is by Central station, the fact that many Cardiff City and Wales fans travel to Central station then walk to the Cardiff City Stadium, the fact that St Mary's street (and all its bars etc) are much closer to Central than it is to Queen Street, the fact a new bus station is (hopefully) being built as a train / bus interchange and not serving that would seen pretty damn stupid, etc etc.

As for the Bay line, I'd argue it does suffer by not going into Central. Certainly I think its usage would be higher if it did.

Not north of Pontypridd: no alcohol allowed!

I wonder if that will still be the case on the tram-trains! Indeed maybe TfW will do a TfL and ban alcohol on all their services!

 

[B&I]

I think you mean "hugely costly".

What they probably should have done was while they had Central Low Level opened out was enlarged the station box and put a second island in, but I don't think they even came close to anticipating the level of demand there - I think they thought Moorfields would be busy, but in practice until Liverpool One the centre of gravity of the main retail bit of the city centre has been at the Central end, and Liverpool One has only moved it a bit closer to James St rather than usefully close to Moorfields.

Even now there's near enough nowt on top (a car park, a run down 1980s shopping centre that needs flattening anyway, a couple of industrial units and the somewhat nondescript station building itself) so that wouldn't be an insurmountably expensive thing to do - much easier and cheaper than re-tunnelling. There's even a header tunnel running parallel to the platforms which provides a start to be opened out.

I do see your point about same station connections - but I'm not sure the walk from Lime St to Central (taking me about 6-7 minutes platform to platform, 8 with a quick stop for a wee at Central first) is *that* much further than Manchester Picc concourse to P13/14. But isn't it cheaper (in Cardiff's case) to fight those perceptions than pander to them, when perceptions is all they are?

It isn't just a question of perception, or distance. It is far easier and more pleasant to walk along a closed, weatherproof passage, than to negotiate narrow, usually rainswept pavements, along traffic-clogged and difficult to cross streets, past one of the biggest concentration of overcrowded pubs in the western hemisphere. That's a few hundred yards through Liverpool. The best part of a mile across central Cardiff is not.going to be an easier or more popular connection.

Digressing, there was a big hole close to Lime Street in the 60s, where the St John's Centre now is, and an underground station could easily have gone in there when the Northern Line tunnel was being built. By the time we actually decided that the railways were not absolutely obsolete, the economy was in contraction, and Liverpool was lucky to get Merseyrail at all (particularly when you compare what happened in Manchester).

Digressing slightly less, opening-out and expansion at Central is the best we can hope for, though I don't hpld out great hope that even that opportunity will be taken, given that the obvious step of sticking a travellator passage through the basement of the new development on the east side of Lime Street (which might have been some saving grace for what must be one of the worst buildings in recent memory) was squandered. Any substantial changes to Merseyrail infrastructure seem to be completely off the agenda, so I suppose we should be grateful for the opportunities the battery hybrids may create.

 

[Dai Corner]

The other problem with severing the Valleys-Queen Street-Central-Vale of Glamorgan connection would have been the operational one of how to terminate everything at the two Cardiff stations.

All discussed at great length in the South Wales Metro thread over the last couple of years.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The same line is being used for the building of the Taffs Well depot and 'Metro control centre'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-44440614
(Sion Barry's piece on Wales Online gives Skates' 'made in Wales, jobs for the Valleys' comments in full)

This is the end of a more typical Welsh Government initiative to bring jobs in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-44437639

A famous film studio which opened a site in Wales in 2015 is now costing the taxpayer more than £390,000 a year to keep it open, it has been revealed.

Pinewood's 15-year lease for a studio in Cardiff was scrapped last year.

The site's owners, the Welsh Government, had spent £9.5m on buying and fitting it out, but it is now also covering the cost of the loss-making operation.

The Welsh Government said it was proud of its links with Pinewood.

A Wales Audit Office report says it is estimated to be costing ministers £392,000 a year to run the site at the former Energy Centre in Wentloog, between Cardiff and Newport.

The Minister wanted a film studio, the Minister wanted a train factory......

Wales cant fund a train factory in the medium term what happens after 2024 when the orders dry up?

 

[Dai Corner]

This is the end of a more typical Welsh Government initiative to bring jobs in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-44437639


The Minister wanted a film studio, the Minister wanted a train factory......

Wales cant fund a train factory in the medium term what happens after 2024 when the orders dry up?

See also: Circuit of Wales. At least they pulled the plug on that after 'only' losing £9m

I don't where the train assemblers will come from, but Llanwern's not too bad a commute from the Bristol area (especially once the tolls are gone) so it's quite likely to mean jobs for English workers too.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The other problem with severing the Valleys-Queen Street-Central-Vale of Glamorgan connection would have been the operational one of how to terminate everything at the two Cardiff stations.

All discussed at great length in the South Wales Metro thread over the last couple of years.

Thankfully all the more bonkers aspirations/suggestions have been kicked into touch.

• Hourly trains from Cardiff to Holyhead. Is Welsh Government's aspiration now dead?
• Severing through links between Central and Queen St.
• On Street running in central Cardiff.

Did Welsh Government see sense following all the criticism or did we get it by default because Keolis's bid was more coherant than MTR's?

 

[ancientsolar]

I think having a direct train to Liverpool from Cardiff is great progression and this also allows better connection at Chester if people want an additional train to link them up with services to the North Wales Coast from South Wales and the borders.

I'm a little concerned about the lack of future proofing of additional services to Cardiff Central from the Pontypridd Valleys.
Cheaper fares + new trains/trams + additional buildings flying up near Cardiff Central in addition to new services along the main line will create a massive surge to the amount of people feeling like Tram travel is the way to go.,, to Cardiff Central.
~ There should be at the very least additional Peak services going to/from Central - Pontypridd via the City line to Radyr.. ideally a platform 9 Bay (a widening of the west of Platform 8.. could allow this)

Linked with this, Keolisamey or TfW have mentioned in investment of Cardiff Central Station from 2025, given the potential boost to 22million passengers by 2023 .. this is a dire situation when the Station is often already crowded~ However, there lacks clarity on a number of Mainline stations while more on others. Llanwern ,. in the Welsh budget for 2018-2019 but lacks information on start dates etc... and isn't really mentioned by Keolisamey, just a map. ~ Given that in network rails strategic Plan they stated they were waiting for "procurement" to be sorted out,. there are a number of things that cannot be defined by Keolisamey yet.

Cardiff - Holyhead the "gerald" services as people seem to be referring to them as. Is it possible one of them could come back to Cardiff before heading to Swansea , to do the Swansea-Manchester service? ~ some belief is that the Greater Anglia 170s would do that service.. but that could be said for many services with a 170 1st Class carriage... so this would mean that the SWA-MCR service would'nt stand out from all the rest... so what possibility to some MK4s?

~ 2ndly missing out Station for the first mentioned service.. probably means Pontypool and New Inn ~
I suspect it will be taken over by the Manchester service. ~ It's long been said there should be an hourly service... one of the earlier plans of the Metro showed a Cardiff-Abergavenny service stopping there. Keolis do mention investing in Abergavenny at some very distant date. Perhaps this will be in the CP7 period.

The goodnews is that we have CAF. ~ More than that, iv'e read that CAF will also be maintaining the built trains.
Remember we have metro phase 2 after 2024, and people are calling for a Swansea metro.. if phase 1 is a huge success which I suspect it will be then perhaps the ambition will grow for phase 2!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Post 2024 I doubt that it will acceptable just to have Infrastructure spend in the Ille de Cardiff. Not a penny on enhancements in The period 2019 to 2024 is being spent away from Core Valley Lines beyond the completion of the Ebbw Vale 2 tph enhancements.

There's unfinished business on electrification west of Cardiff for a start.

 

[krus_aragon]

Cardiff - Holyhead the "gerald" services as people seem to be referring to them as. Is it possible one of them could come back to Cardiff before heading to Swansea , to do the Swansea-Manchester service? ~ some belief is that the Greater Anglia 170s would do that service.. but that could be said for many services with a 170 1st Class carriage... so this would mean that the SWA-MCR service would'nt stand out from all the rest... so what possibility to some MK4s?

The Loco-hauled Cardiff-Holyhead fleet is being expanded to three Mark IV rakes: two in service, one maintenance/spare. It's been announced that there'll be three loco-hauled services each way as part of the regular two-hourly service, which effectively means one diagram will go north-south-north, whereas the other will go south-north-south, for a morning, lunch-time/afternoon and evening service each way. While you might be able to squeeze a Cardiff-Swansea-Cardiff turn in between the north-south journeys, the train won't be idle for long enough to go to Manchester and back.

Manchester-Swansea/Carmarthen/Milford is due to get new 2/3-car rolling stock c.2023, part of the same fleet that's replacing the 175s and 158s in North and Mid Wales. The twelve 170s are going to be used on the HOWL and (probably) West Wales eventually (but may be elsewhere in South Wales while the Pacer cull is going on). Curiously the promise is for First Class service between Manchester and Swansea, not Carmarthen or Milford.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Loco-hauled Cardiff-Holyhead fleet is being expanded to three Mark IV rakes: two in service, one maintenance/spare. It's been announced that there'll be three loco-hauled services each way as part of the regular two-hourly service, which effectively means one diagram will go north-south-north, whereas the other will go south-north-south, for a morning, lunch-time/afternoon and evening service each way. While you might be able to squeeze a Cardiff-Swansea-Cardiff turn in between the north-south journeys, the train won't be idle for long enough to go to Manchester and back.

Manchester-Swansea/Carmarthen/Milford is due to get new 2/3-car rolling stock c.2023, part of the same fleet that's replacing the 175s and 158s in North and Mid Wales. The twelve 170s are going to be used on the HOWL and (probably) West Wales eventually (but may be elsewhere in South Wales while the Pacer cull is going on). Curiously the promise is for First Class service between Manchester and Swansea, not Carmarthen or Milford.

This strongly suggests that the west wales services will be portion workings attaching/detaching @ Swansea with services strengthened over the "core" of the route between the major population centres with the units with First Class detaching at Swansea.

 

[Envoy]

This strongly suggests that the west wales services will be portion workings attaching/detaching @ Swansea with services strengthened over the "core" of the route between the major population centres with the units with First Class detaching at Swansea.

Surely, if that is to be the case, then it would mean that any people who wished to travel 1st class to/from places west of Swansea would have to split the ticket at Swansea? (Such people could also be transferring to GWR services to London or XC services east of Cardiff).

I would certainly hope that the design of long distance trains between west Wales and Manchester/north Wales/Liverpool has end doors rather than the more ‘suburban’ mid carriage doors. I can understand such trains requiring an end gangway connection but hope that the drivers will not be forced to sit in a broom cupboard only suitable for those with short legs. Perhaps one end of such trains can have a normal streamlined cab with no gangway meaning that the cab end doors are only forward in one direction on the western legs of journeys.

I also wonder if such trains might split/combine at Port Talbot with the west Wales portion offering faster times to/from the west - possibly via the Swansea District Line? Another possibility perhaps could be to split/join at Whitland & thus serve both the Milford Haven and Tenby/Pembroke branches.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Surely, if that is to be the case, then it would mean that any people who wished to travel 1st class to/from places west of Swansea would have to split the ticket at Swansea? (Such people could also be transferring to GWR services to London or XC services east of Cardiff).

I would certainly hope that the design of long distance trains between west Wales and Manchester/north Wales/Liverpool has end doors rather than the more ‘suburban’ mid carriage doors. I can understand such trains requiring an end gangway connection but hope that the drivers will not be forced to sit in a broom cupboard only suitable for those with short legs. Perhaps one end of such trains can have a normal streamlined cab with no gangway meaning that the cab end doors are only forward in one direction on the western legs of journeys.

I also wonder if such trains might split/combine at Port Talbot with the west Wales portion offering faster times to/from the west - possibly via the Swansea District Line? Another possibility perhaps could be to split/join at Whitland & thus serve both the Milford Haven and Tenby/Pembroke branches.

No Wales and Border 1st Class west of Swansea
Civity's have 1/3 & 2/3 door arrangement. Drivers cab similar to 175 (but with gangway)
No mention of use of SDL anywhere Civity's only mentioned on Milford Haven services.

 

[krus_aragon]

Surely, if that is to be the case, then it would mean that any people who wished to travel 1st class to/from places west of Swansea would have to split the ticket at Swansea? (Such people could also be transferring to GWR services to London or XC services east of Cardiff).

No need to split the ticket. For example: I can but a first class ticket from Euston to Blaenau Ffestiniog if I want to, despite there being no First Class provision south of Llandudno Junction. The First Class ticket price is (or should be) set according to the provision of first class accommodation on each portion of the route. (Also, even though GWR already provide some first-class accommodation west of Swansea, the price of a first class Single from Paddington to Carmarthen is only five pounds more expensive than to Swansea, and Milford is the same price as Carmarthen.)

I also wonder if such trains might split/combine at Port Talbot with the west Wales portion offering faster times to/from the west - possibly via the Swansea District Line? Another possibility perhaps could be to split/join at Whitland & thus serve both the Milford Haven and Tenby/Pembroke branches.

Port Talbot could be doable, except for the fact that there are only two platforms available. What do you do when one of the two units are delayed eastbound: does the other unit sit on the mainline until its partner arrives?

As for Whitland, the current plan is for the Manchester service to extend west of Carmarthen only every other hour. Carrying another unit to Whitland and then splitting for Pembroke is going to require extra units, and either double the service provision to Pembroke, or result in one train every two hours west of Carmarthen (disregarding Fishguard services).

 

[Envoy]

krus_aragon > points noted.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

I noticed when catching the train at my local station that they started to repainted the fencing from Arriva green/blue to black. Is there any other W&B stations getting the same treatment?

 

[gareth950]

I noticed when catching the train at my local station that they started to repainted the fencing from Arriva green/blue to black. Is there any other W&B stations getting the same treatment?

Radyr and Llandaf have already been done. I wonder if TfW are paying ATW an undisclosed sum to re-paint as many stations as possible by October, as ATW aren't obliged to do it and technically they still manage nearly all stations in Wales.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Radyr and Llandaf have already been done. I wonder if TfW are paying ATW an undisclosed sum to re-paint as many stations as possible by October, as ATW aren't obliged to do it and technically they still manage nearly all stations in Wales.

Which do they not manage in Wales?

 

[gareth950]

Which do they not manage in Wales?

Maybe they do manage them all, I wasn't 100% sure. There aren't any NR managed stations in Wales so ATW do manage them all then!

 

[Dai Corner]

Maybe they do manage them all, I wasn't 100% sure. There aren't any NR managed stations in Wales so ATW do manage them all then!

Fishguard Harbour? FWIW, Wikipedia says it's owned by Stena Line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fishguard Harbour? FWIW, Wikipedia says it's owned by Stena Line.

For that reason I'm sure I recall it being the case that smoking remains permitted on the platforms, unless it's changed?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishguard_Harbour_railway_station


Does it ?

Place Fishguard Harbour
Local authority Pembrokeshire
Coordinates

52.012°N 4.986°WCoordinates:

52.012°N 4.986°W
Grid reference SM951389
Operations
Station code FGH
Managed by Arriva Trains Wales

 

[berneyarms]

It is indeed managed by Stena Line.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I believe owned by Stenna line. But managed by ATW which was the question originally. Are there any stations in Wales not managed by Arriva trains Wales.

Sorry to be so pedantic so early on a weekend.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

CAF has just missed out on the TfL Piccadilly line order (to Siemens).
I think they had Newport in mind to build the trains if they had won that order.
So the search goes on for work after the TfW Civity order.

 

[emoaconr]

I noticed when catching the train at my local station that they started to repainted the fencing from Arriva green/blue to black. Is there any other W&B stations getting the same treatment?

Of course, there are these photos online: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/MEYH5N/new-sign-on-the-station-platform-in-the-colour-scheme-of-the-south-wales-metro-MEYH5N.jpg

Stations in North Wales vary. Generally the 'heritage' ones are still painted in the Green/Red/White colour scheme as they have been since FNW days, including Chester, Wrexham General, Flint, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Llandudno, Penmaenmawr, Bangor (and possibly others).

Then there are the non-major stations which are painted in Arriva Blue / Cream, including Shotton, Neston, Heswall, Gobowen, Runcorn East, Conwy, Deganwy, Abergele & Pensarn, Wrexham Central etc.

However there are lots of anomalies. On the Wrexham-Bidston Line, both Gwersyllt and Cefn-y-Bedd (and I think Penyffordd) have had a Black/Cream look over the past few years, whereas adopted stations Caergwrle and Buckley are painted in a dark Blue/Red/Cream mixture (all of these were painted in corporate Arriva Blue/Cream for some time). Additionally, Llandudno was in Arriva Blue/Cream until its refurbishment, when it was returned to the Red/Green/White scheme of FNW days.

 

[krus_aragon]

Bangor has elements of the red/white/green in the (LMS era) ticket hall, but the platform buildings were in green and gold (including the Chester & Holyhead Railway logo) until they were repainted into Arriva Turquoise a few years ago. Lord knows what they're doing under the current scaffolding.

As for Llandudno, after its recent refurbishment it has a predominantly marroon colour scheme.

The rest of the stations in the area are, as I can recall, either red/white/green or Arriva turquoise.

 

[gareth950]

No new information in the latest issue of RAIL (available digitally today) other than the boundary between TfW owned 'Core Valley lines' and NR owned everything else will be "just south of Cardiff Queen Street", presumably after the Bay line branches off, and that the Stadler CityLink tram-trains will be high floor, "which means no work on platforms", and means "We won't need to do Cardiff re-signalling as a result of this."
The tram-trains will also be purely 25kV, there will be no split voltage.
Also Welsh Government will "own" the Valley lines infrastructure north of Queen St and KeilosAmey will lease it from them.
No mention of who will own the City line though, or where the divide will be off it coming into Cardiff if it is transferred, esp considering tram-trains will be running over this route.

 

[Chester1]

CAF has just missed out on the TfL Piccadilly line order (to Siemens).
I think they had Newport in mind to build the trains if they had won that order.
So the search goes on for work after the TfW Civity order.

I wouldn't worry even with an impending rolling stock building fammine once the current boom ends. The TfW order means CAF Newport will have work until 2023 and there is plenty of time for new orders. CAF will be employing 300 staff vs 1000 at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe, its a much smaller site to keep ticking over. Its in CAFs interests to find a small export order if its neccessary to keep the factory open because its a valuable foothold in the UK market for when the next rolling stock order boom happens. I doubt output will be much more than 100-120 coaches per year, one order would keep it at capacity for quite a while. Its really good for South Wales but CAFs Newport factory will be tiny compared to Bombardier Derby.

 

[Pete_uk]

The Loco-hauled Cardiff-Holyhead fleet is being expanded to three Mark IV rakes

Woah! I missed that! What's the formation and what's pulling it around?

Also, will TfW be responsible for the valley lines maintainence?