Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[craigybagel]

Use of 230s on Crewe-Shrewsbury* would only be short term (if done) until all the units are needed for the 2tph to Bidston.

*(Only seen this idea discussed here: Crewe-Chester is the one mentioned in official press releases)

Indeed, I should have made clear I was referring to 170s instead of 230s on Crewe - Chester, using units from a pool that would also cover the HOWL. There has been no mention anywhere of what will be used for Crewe - Shrewsbury, that one is a mystery. Given that at present Crewe - Shrewsbury and Crewe - Chester both require 1 unit each I would have thought it much more sensible to use a 230 on Crewe - Shrewsbury and a unit more suited to high speed and passenger comfort on Crewe - Chester, rather then the reverse that appears to be planned, but we shall see.....

 

[The Prisoner]

More rubbish trains heading in and out of Chester. If ever there was a city with such a poor choice of rolling stock.....Pacers, Voyagers, 507/508s and now these recycled tin cans plodding along on what is a busy shuttle service on 90MPH lines. Don't mind the 158/175s, but even they seem to be dropped for inadequate 150s more often then not.

It is absolutely no wonder that rail's share in and around Chester is so poor. Slow infrequent services on poor clapped out trains.

Oh, and Chester - Crewe is not in North Wales.

Rant over.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More rubbish trains heading in and out of Chester. If ever there was a city with such a poor choice of rolling stock.....Pacers, Voyagers, 507/508s and now these recycled tin cans plodding along on what is a busy shuttle service on 90MPH lines. Don't mind the 158/175s, but even they seem to be dropped for inadequate 150s more often then not.
It is absolutely no wonder that rail's share in and around Chester is so poor. Slow infrequent services on poor clapped out trains.
Oh, and Chester - Crewe is not in North Wales.
Rant over.

I don't disagree with you, but:
Pacers are going in 18 months (replacements via Northwich probably 150/156, and maybe fewer stops).
507/8 to Liverpool are going in 2 years, replaced by new Stadlers.
New Northern 195s on a new fast service to Manchester/Leeds next year.
New service to Runcorn and Liverpool in December (150s probably), more trains to Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Bangor in the pipeline.
New CAF DMUs based at Chester to run most W&B services by 2022 (replacing the nice 175s but probably more reliable).
Voyagers probably staying but there is no other stock which can deliver the 2h5m Euston journey time until HS2 starts.
Mk4 LHCS replacing Mk3 on Cardiff services by 2020.
But yes, the 60mph 230s on the Crewe shuttle aren't a great advance - hopefully replaced by proper CAF DMUs within a year or two.
Chester gets 4.6m passengers a year (and 800K interchanges) and is a major regional hub.

I found myself in a 2-car Pacer doing Manchester Victoria-York via Bradford yesterday.
Chester hasn't descended to that level yet, though it came close in FNW days.

 

[The Prisoner]

I agree there is some half decent stock in the pipeline, but the 230 on Chester - Crewe is an absolute disgrace.

And the Manchester - Bradford - Leeds service offers nothing for me - even with improved line speeds it will be at least an hour longer than driving from Chester to Leeds. Appreciate the improvement to Manchester.

Grumble Grumble!!!!!

 

[krus_aragon]

Ah, but according to Vivarail these Class 230s "will form the flagship fleet for Wales and Borders"!

 

[chillyed]

Not sure if this has been covered before but I emailed TfW a few weeks ago asking how many trains would be travelling between Wrexham and Chester under this franchise. After a slight delay I got the following response:

From December 2022 - as soon as new trains are available - we will increase the number of trains each way on weekdays from 20 to 34, on Saturdays from 16 to 32 and Sundays from 5 to 7. This means that there will be 2 trains an hour in most hours on Monday – Saturday, provided by four services every two hours (between Cardiff and Holyhead, Cardiff and Liverpool, Shrewsbury and Liverpool, Birmingham International and Holyhead).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not impressed by the Sunday service.
Not even hourly, and presumably a late start.
The weekday pattern seems to completely break down on the Marches/Coast routes on Sundays.
Even Chester-Manchester reduces to local shuttles with few extensions westwards, with coast services focussed on Crewe.
No trains to Manchester Airport either (on a peak day for air travel).

 

[krus_aragon]

Not sure if this has been covered before but I emailed TfW a few weeks ago asking how many trains would be travelling between Wrexham and Chester under this franchise. After a slight delay I got the following response:

From December 2022 - as soon as new trains are available - we will increase the number of trains each way on weekdays from 20 to 34, on Saturdays from 16 to 32 and Sundays from 5 to 7. This means that there will be 2 trains an hour in most hours on Monday – Saturday, provided by four services every two hours (between Cardiff and Holyhead, Cardiff and Liverpool, Shrewsbury and Liverpool, Birmingham International and Holyhead).

That quoted Sunday service makes no sense: there are already 9 trains each way between Shrewsbury and Chester (via Wrexham) this Sunday.

Assuming the rest is accurate, it's a welcome confirmation that the existing Holyhead-Birmingham service is continuing: something that we'd had to work out by process of deduction and guesswork.

 

[Llanigraham]

I agree there is some half decent stock in the pipeline, but the 230 on Chester - Crewe is an absolute disgrace.

And the Manchester - Bradford - Leeds service offers nothing for me - even with improved line speeds it will be at least an hour longer than driving from Chester to Leeds. Appreciate the improvement to Manchester.

Grumble Grumble!!!!!

How can you know they are a disgrace when they haven't entered service yet?

 

[vlad]

Ah, but according to Vivarail these Class 230s "will form the flagship fleet for Wales and Borders"!

Chuffin' 'eck - what are the rest of their trains going to be like?

 

[30907]

How can you know they are a disgrace when they haven't entered service yet?

I think the OP means their top speed of 60mph when Crewe-Chester is timed for 75mph, meaning that the trains will lose about 2 minutes on every journey.

 

[Roast Veg]

The ATW Mark 3 DVTs are owned by Arriva, not Porterbrook.

I cannot see the solution being anything other than Mark 4 DVTs. Apart from what has already been mentioned, the inner end of a Mark 3 DVT has conventional drop-head buckeye couplers, whereas within the set Mark 4s have Tightlocks. It's only the outer ends of the TOE and DVT that have standard couplers.

I hadn't remembered that, but it's an extremely valid point. The question remains then: set the MK4s up for AAR so that their introduction doesn't have to coincide with the 68s, or use the 68s standard and replace diagrams wholesale?

 

[Llanigraham]

I think the OP means their top speed of 60mph when Crewe-Chester is timed for 75mph, meaning that the trains will lose about 2 minutes on every journey.

Does he? Certainly not obvious from his comments.

 

[craigybagel]

I think the OP means their top speed of 60mph when Crewe-Chester is timed for 75mph, meaning that the trains will lose about 2 minutes on every journey.

Current journey time is 23 minutes, so there's space to accomodate that in the timetable but it will cut down on recovery time if there are delays. And it assumes that running around at full speed and with heavy passenger loads for 50 minutes out of every hour for 16 hours a day doesn't cause things to break....I wouldn't go in for the hyperbole used by the poster here but, as I've mentioned before, I have extreme doubts as to the suitability of these units for that particular service.

I hadn't remembered that, but it's an extremely valid point. The question remains then: set the MK4s up for AAR so that their introduction doesn't have to coincide with the 68s, or use the 68s standard and replace diagrams wholesale?

Given the fact some 68s have already been fitted with AAR and are seemingly working fine with it (at Chiltern), that would seem the logical way of doing things. And it's worth mentioning that the last time this happened, when Gerald went from 57 + MkIIs to 67 + MkIIIs + DVT that was done in steps, with the 67s arriving before the rolling stock.

 

[mmh]

How can you know they are a disgrace when they haven't entered service yet?

I'd say that because I've travelled on them hundreds if not thousands of times already and if a few months ago you'd told me a long for the scrap heap London Underground train would reappear as a frankenstein 60mph train on a 90mph route I might have thought it was April Fools Day.

 

[causton]

I'd say that because I've travelled on them hundreds if not thousands of times already and if a few months ago you'd told me a long for the scrap heap London Underground train would reappear as a frankenstein 60mph train on a 90mph route I might have thought it was April Fools Day.

Interesting how you can berate and dismiss a train and claim to have travelled on it 'thousands of times' when it is not even built yet!

How about you actually wait to see one in real life before you condemn it?

 

[Dai Corner]

Interesting how you can berate and dismiss a train and claim to have travelled on it 'thousands of times' when it is not even built yet!

How about you actually wait to see one in real life before you condemn it?

Apparently the Bidston-Wrexham rail users group have seen the 230 (as opposed to LU D78 stock) and really liked it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apparently the Bidston-Wrexham rail users group have seen the 230 (as opposed to LU D78 stock) and really liked it.

It's well suited to a 40/50mph local route with frequent stops.
Not so much to a 90mph semi-intercity leg Chester to Crewe (the opposite train in the hour is a Voyager).
Wait till it shows up on a Llandudno-Manchester Airport diagram, or Holyhead-Cardiff (which it will, on a bad day).

 

[krus_aragon]

It's well suited to a 40/50mph local route with frequent stops.
Not so much to a 90mph semi-intercity leg Chester to Crewe (the opposite train in the hour is a Voyager).
Wait till it shows up on a Llandudno-Manchester Airport diagram, or Holyhead-Cardiff (which it will, on a bad day).

It probably wouldn't get all the way to Cardiff, though: I expect it'll be predominantly Chester drivers/guards that are trained on the units.

It will likely operate at least one Llandudno-Chester/Crewe service per day, as the current Conwy Valley unit does at the end of the day.

(Come to think of it, that 150 unit currently comes down to the Junction in the morning as ECS coupled to other sprinter stock. The 230 will have to come down on its own, unless it has BSI-compatible couplers that I'm not aware of.)

 

[craigybagel]

It probably wouldn't get all the way to Cardiff, though: I expect it'll be predominantly Chester drivers/guards that are trained on the units.

It will likely operate at least one Llandudno-Chester/Crewe service per day, as the current Conwy Valley unit does at the end of the day.

(Come to think of it, that 150 unit currently comes down to the Junction in the morning as ECS coupled to other sprinter stock. The 230 will have to come down on its own, unless it has BSI-compatible couplers that I'm not aware of.)

Some of the current arrangements are likely to need to change. At present, drivers from no fewer then 5 depots work the shuttle during the day - and for the guards it's 6! Chester and Crewe as you'd expect, but also Holyhead, Llandudno Junction, Shrewsbury - and for guards only, Cardiff. The chances of all of those crews signing 230s does seem rather slim. We can however assume that as Holyhead and Llandudno Junction will need to sign them anyway for Blaneau and Chester and Shrewsbury (guards only) for Bidston, they're likely see some time working it. Beyond that it's harder to say at present.

There has been talk that the sets for Wrexham will be stabled there instead of how it is at present (in the morning 1 150 comes in service from Chester, the other works ECS Crewe - Shrewsbury then goes in service to Wrexham. In the evening the first of those 150s above works in service to Shrewsbury, then forms the last Shrewsbury - Cardiff of the day - the other set runs to Chester). One of the big claims made about the 230s is that they don't need to visit maintenance depots so often - so perhaps the plan is just to keep the one set stabled out at Llandudno Junction most nights?

 

[DelW]

... a long for the scrap heap London Underground train ...

D78 stock was not due for scrapping, it was retired because TfL wanted a uniform fleet on sub-surface lines to allow interchangeability between routes. D stock is rather newer than the Piccadilly and Bakerloo trains which will continue in TfL use for a number of years yet, and is also rather newer than A stock and C stock were when they were withdrawn.

 

[transmanche]

D78 stock was not due for scrapping, it was retired because TfL wanted a uniform fleet on sub-surface lines to allow interchangeability between routes.

And to save money with reduced maintenance.

D78 stock was withdrawn probably 15 years earlier than originally intended and managed to outlast their smaller sisters (the 1983 tube stock) which didn't even manage 15 years in service. Neither stock is missed and as far as I'm concerned, the damn things were only suitable to be turned into Coke cans.

 

[The Prisoner]

How can you know they are a disgrace when they haven't entered service yet?

To make myself clear 1) a 60 MPH top speed train on a 90 MPH line speed, 75 MPH average path is not a step forward 2) I have not been on one of these obviously, but they look poor internally and externally (subjective I appreciate) 3) I live in Chester - services in and around Chester are largely slow and fulfilled by second rate rolling stock 4) The Chester - Crewe shuttle is heavily patronised and connections at Crewe are tight as it is - adding 2-3 minutes to that journey is a backward step

You might perceive these as subjective opinions. But when we are off-hiring decent units such as the 175s to embrace recycled 70s tube trains something has gone very very wrong.

 

[Gareth Marston]

To make myself clear 1) a 60 MPH top speed train on a 90 MPH line speed, 75 MPH average path is not a step forward 2) I have not been on one of these obviously, but they look poor internally and externally (subjective I appreciate) 3) I live in Chester - services in and around Chester are largely slow and fulfilled by second rate rolling stock 4) The Chester - Crewe shuttle is heavily patronised and connections at Crewe are tight as it is - adding 2-3 minutes to that journey is a backward step

You might perceive these as subjective opinions. But when we are off-hiring decent units such as the 175s to embrace recycled 70s tube trains something has gone very very wrong.

Just to get you fully in the picture with the plan.

The 230's from Vivarail are to allows 150's to be cascaded away from North Wales to allow the withdrawl of Pacers in South Wales by the end of 2019. The 158/175's will continue to operate until 2022.
They (the 230's) will be replaced on the Chester to Crewe shuttle by the CAF Civitys in 2022.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Just to get you fully in the picture with the plan.

The 230's from Vivarail are to allows 150's to be cascaded away from North Wales to allow the withdrawl of Pacers in South Wales by the end of 2019. The 158/175's will continue to operate until 2022.
They (the 230's) will be replaced on the Chester to Crewe shuttle by the CAF Civitys in 2022.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant and moan

 

[daikilo]

Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant and moan

Ah, the alternative truth?

I'm getting old and when I was at school there was the truth and the rest. I admit that a few bits of "truth" have now been complemented or disproved but at least the change can be explained.

 

[mmh]

Just to get you fully in the picture with the plan.

The 230's from Vivarail are to allows 150's to be cascaded away from North Wales to allow the withdrawl of Pacers in South Wales by the end of 2019. The 158/175's will continue to operate until 2022.
They (the 230's) will be replaced on the Chester to Crewe shuttle by the CAF Civitys in 2022.

Of course all these promises are always kept. North Wales passengers are long used to unkept promises, so a bit of cynicism is needed.

Once a TOC has an unsuitable train and uses it "temporarily" on an unsuited route, it will do it again. Internally falling apart 150s have never been suited to Crewe-Chester, but they're there.

Southern's 313s were said to be a stop gap until non-prehistoric trains were freed up after some Southern routes moved to Thameslink. That's happened; have the 313s gone? Of course not.

 

[Chester1]

Of course all these promises are always kept. North Wales passengers are long used to unkept promises, so a bit of cynicism is needed.

Once a TOC has an unsuitable train and uses it "temporarily" on an unsuited route, it will do it again. Internally falling apart 150s have never been suited to Crewe-Chester, but they're there.

Southern's 313s were said to be a stop gap until non-prehistoric trains were freed up after some Southern routes moved to Thameslink. That's happened; have the 313s gone? Of course not.

The 230s are required to run the improved service on the Bidston - Wrexham line though and they are more suitable than 150s for the line. Unless you think the half hourly service will not happen then the 230s use on Chester-Crewe and Conwy Valley will be temporary. The situation has not be caused by the ToC but by WG refusing to prepare for the PRM-TSI deadline. 5 x 769s are on order and are all ready very likely to be delayed and there is no chance of new stock entering service in the next 18 months. There is no capacity left to upgrade Mark IIIs either, which leaves the 230s.

 

[6Gman]

Internally falling apart 150s have never been suited to Crewe-Chester, but they're there.

I use Crewe - Chester a fair bit. Don't recognise your description of the 150s.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I use Crewe - Chester a fair bit. Don't recognise your description of the 150s.

Whilst I agree the seats look ok after a refurb.

The doors do rattle all the time , the floors are pretty grubby and the walls not much better.