Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[mmh]

The 230s are required to run the improved service on the Bidston - Wrexham line though and they are more suitable than 150s for the line. Unless you think the half hourly service will not happen then the 230s use on Chester-Crewe and Conwy Valley will be temporary. The situation has not be caused by the ToC but by WG refusing to prepare for the PRM-TSI deadline. 5 x 769s are on order and are all ready very likely to be delayed and there is no chance of new stock entering service in the next 18 months. There is no capacity left to upgrade Mark IIIs either, which leaves the 230s.

To act like the passengers experiencing them will, I couldn't give a stuff about the Bidston line. I care that I've travelled hundreds of miles and my first experience of Wales is changing from an intercity train to a london underground cast-off

It's "only til 2022". That's plenty of time to alienate a lot of people, both local and visitors.

It's OK though, they noticed there were slightly less obsolete carriages becoming available for their fantasy Junction to Cardiff commute. If it's such an important route, make it mk4s+loco all day. I wouldn't argue against that

 

[mmh]

I use Crewe - Chester a fair bit. Don't recognise your description of the 150s.

Last year I was on one that didn't have a gangway door. It wasn't broken, it just wasn't there!

 

[sw1ller]

Whilst I agree the seats look ok after a refurb.

The doors do rattle all the time , the floors are pretty grubby and the walls not much better.

What’s the deal with no covers for the strip lighting? Many an occasion they get smashed and they don’t come down in a couple of pieces either! Very dangerous imo

 

[Llanigraham]

To make myself clear 1) a 60 MPH top speed train on a 90 MPH line speed, 75 MPH average path is not a step forward 2) I have not been on one of these obviously, but they look poor internally and externally (subjective I appreciate) 3) I live in Chester - services in and around Chester are largely slow and fulfilled by second rate rolling stock 4) The Chester - Crewe shuttle is heavily patronised and connections at Crewe are tight as it is - adding 2-3 minutes to that journey is a backward step

You might perceive these as subjective opinions. But when we are off-hiring decent units such as the 175s to embrace recycled 70s tube trains something has gone very very wrong.

So what would you propose to use, since the only other option seems to be zilch!?

 

[Parallel]

What’s the deal with no covers for the strip lighting? Many an occasion they get smashed and they don’t come down in a couple of pieces either! Very dangerous imo

I believe that’s how they were originally. GWR’s 150202, 150216 and the 150/1s & 150/0s also don’t have casing around the bulbs. I think Wessex Trains retrofitted the current lighting in the rest of GWR’s 150/2s and I agree, it is better. But loads are full of dead insects!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Discussions regarding franchise takeover started last week between ATW and ATW and Keolis-Amey Wales Cymru (KAWC).

KAWC - first time i've seen this used.

 

[sw1ller]

KAWC - I naturally read the WC as West Coast.

Discussions regarding franchise takeover started last week between ATW and ATW and Keolis-Amey Wales Cymru (KAWC).

KAWC - first time i've seen this used.

Gonna be hard to adjust.

 

[pemma]

Discussions regarding franchise takeover started last week between ATW and ATW and Keolis-Amey Wales Cymru (KAWC).

KAWC - first time i've seen this used.

Keolis-Amey Wales Cymru is the registered company name for the company that will run the new franchise, not the name that will be put on the side of the trains - similar to Arriva Rail North, Merseyrail Electrics 2002 or London & Birmingham Railway.

 

[pemma]

Last year I was on one that didn't have a gangway door. It wasn't broken, it just wasn't there!

The gangway door doesn't have any real purpose. Most of the time it doesn't shut properly or is difficult to open, then if it's not shut properly the movement of the train will at some point cause it to open itself and then slam shut.

The EMT 158s have had their middle gangway doors removed to and they weren't manual ones.

 

[krus_aragon]

Discussions regarding franchise takeover started last week between ATW and ATW and Keolis-Amey Wales Cymru (KAWC).

KAWC - first time i've seen this used.

I can guess why they didn't opt for Keolis-Amey Cymru!

 

[craigybagel]

What’s the deal with no covers for the strip lighting? Many an occasion they get smashed and they don’t come down in a couple of pieces either! Very dangerous imo

Hence a phone call to maintenance from me one night after bringing some Man City fans home, warning them they'd need to get their big white suits out as there was vomit to clean up on the train - but they'd need to be careful because someone smashed one of the lights directly overhead, so there were shards of glass mixed in.

KAWC - I naturally read the WC as West Coast.

Gonna be hard to adjust.

Be glad you're not the one who's got to say "Thank you for traveling with Arriva tra..... Sorry, Keolis Amey Railway" - or whatever name they come up with.

Incidentally, did I miss something somewhere or do we genuinely not know what the trading name of the new franchise will be yet? I know the artists rendering show lots of Transport for Wales logos, but I thought the name had to be less Welsh focused?

The gangway door doesn't have any real purpose. Most of the time it doesn't shut properly or is difficult to open, then if it's not shut properly the movement of the train will at some point cause it to open itself and then slam shut.

Indeed, I would quite happily see them removed - and have in the past become trapped in one end of the train temporarily because the door has jammed.

 

[DelW]

Incidentally, did I miss something somewhere or do we genuinely not know what the trading name of the new franchise will be yet? I know the artists rendering show lots of Transport for Wales logos, but I thought the name had to be less Welsh focused?

Presumably as with other recent franchises, it will be something not specific to the current franchisee, so that future changes won't involve having to switch everything to a new name.

Personally I'd like something like "Wales and Marches Railway", which I think covers its principal areas, but I suppose that would have to be abbreviated to WAMR to avoid confusion with West Midlands. I'll leave it to others to suggest what the Welsh name might be.

 

[Dai Corner]

Presumably as with other recent franchises, it will be something not specific to the current franchisee, so that future changes won't involve having to switch everything to a new name.

Personally I'd like something like "Wales and Marches Railway", which I think covers its principal areas, but I suppose that would have to be abbreviated to WAMR to avoid confusion with West Midlands. I'll leave it to others to suggest what the Welsh name might be.

I'm not sure whether the good people of Liverpool, Manchester, Cheltenham or Birmingham consider themselves living in the Welsh Marches? Or the Welsh Borders for that matter. I can't come up with anything better at the moment though

 

[mmh]

The gangway door doesn't have any real purpose. Most of the time it doesn't shut properly or is difficult to open, then if it's not shut properly the movement of the train will at some point cause it to open itself and then slam shut.

It has two purposes - to reduce noise and stop the train looking like a dilapidated wreck. It hadn't been removed to make moving between the carriages easier - the door on the other side was still there.

The EMT 158s have had their middle gangway doors removed to and they weren't manual ones.

158 gangway doors aren't in the passenger saloon though.

 

[DelW]

I'm not sure whether the good people of Liverpool, Manchester, Cheltenham or Birmingham consider themselves living in the Welsh Marches? Or the Welsh Borders for that matter. I can't come up with anything better at the moment though

That was why I said principal areas

After all, they only provide a small proportion of the trains in Liverpool, Manchester, Cheltenham or Birmingham.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rhodri Clark in July Modern Railways says that KAWC will lease the trains from the manufacturers, as is now normal practice.
TfW had intended to do that themselves, but the KAWC offer was better that they could get via the public purse.
The switch was apparently only made a week before the winner was announced.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Rheilffordd Prydain. Oh, wait.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 230s are required to run the improved service on the Bidston - Wrexham line though and they are more suitable than 150s for the line. Unless you think the half hourly service will not happen then the 230s use on Chester-Crewe and Conwy Valley will be temporary. The situation has not be caused by the ToC but by WG refusing to prepare for the PRM-TSI deadline. 5 x 769s are on order and are all ready very likely to be delayed and there is no chance of new stock entering service in the next 18 months. There is no capacity left to upgrade Mark IIIs either, which leaves the 230s.

As I've said before the Welsh Government knew of the flaws in the current franchise from Day One and were at many levels complicit in the terms of the agreement.
They had shown some willingness to operate outside the terms of the franchise agreement by funding infrastructure and rolling stock improvements however this all dried up under the current Carwyn Jones administration and everything was kicked into the new franchise and therefore into the 2020's.

 

[Cardiff123]

Be glad you're not the one who's got to say "Thank you for traveling with Arriva tra..... Sorry, Keolis Amey Railway" - or whatever name they come up with.

Incidentally, did I miss something somewhere or do we genuinely not know what the trading name of the new franchise will be yet? I know the artists rendering show lots of Transport for Wales logos, but I thought the name had to be less Welsh focused?

Presumably as with other recent franchises, it will be something not specific to the current franchisee, so that future changes won't involve having to switch everything to a new name.

Personally I'd like something like "Wales and Marches Railway", which I think covers its principal areas, but I suppose that would have to be abbreviated to WAMR to avoid confusion with West Midlands. I'll leave it to others to suggest what the Welsh name might be.

My understanding is that SE Wales & Valley lines will be branded / known as 'Transport for Wales' and in announcements most probably just 'Metro', and everything else will be 'Wales and Borders'

In branding & announcements I don't think Keilos Amey's name will feature anywhere, which they can't be happy about.

I wouldn't be surprised to see separate websites for the Metro and wider franchise as well

 

[PR1Berske]

The . mock-up photos show "Cymru a'r Gororau" and "Wales and Borders" on the side of units.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

In branding & announcements I don't think Keilos Amey's name will feature anywhere, which they can't be happy about.

What makes you assume they're not happy? None of their previous or current UK rail operations have ever included either name. The only sign of a public image for either of them was Keolis's subtle 'i' when they co-owned (F)TPE.

 

[Roast Veg]

And with the way public perception can shift against the operators presently, they might be better off not putting their name in.

 

[Parallel]

At least the auto announcers used at stations operated by W&B should already have ‘Wales & Borders’ recorded.

‘Wales and Borders’ is a good, generally accurate name for the franchise so I’m happy with that. Would be good if they could use something like ‘South Wales Metro’ or ‘Cardiff Metro’ for the Valley lines and Cardiff local routes, if ‘W&B’ is not to be used.

 

[Dai Corner]

The name 'Central Metro' has been coined for the lines through Queen Street. I first saw it in the launch day presentation to AMs pdf I think. Expect this to be contracted to 'The Metro' and the South Wales bit quietly forgotten.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The name 'Central Metro' has been coined for the lines through Queen Street. I first saw it in the launch day presentation to AMs pdf I think. Expect this to be contracted to 'The Metro' and the South Wales bit quietly forgotten.

here Railfutures view

https://railfuture.org.uk/article1795-Wales-and-Borders-award

The Railfuture View

There is much to welcome in the new franchise which meets a number of the objectives set out in ‘On Track for the 21st Century’ the development plan written by Railfuture’s Wales branch. However, with such an ambitious programme of improvements final judgement is reserved until implementation has started to be delivered in accord with the proposed schedule. The lack of involvement of Network Rail in the electrification of the Valleys network will be carefully watched to see whether the work will be completed to budget and on time in view of difficulties encountered with recent electrification work in England. The significant improvement in frequencies on Sundays across the network is something that Railfuture has long called for.

The metro proposals offer little to use the flexibility of trams to access areas away from the existing route network and proposals to integrate rail/tram and bus travel are still vague. However, these are issues that can be addressed in the future and in the meantime let’s celebrate what has the potential to be a historic improvement in rail services in Wales to be rolled out the next five years.

 

[Dai Corner]

here Railfutures view

https://railfuture.org.uk/article1795-Wales-and-Borders-award

Some people in Newport seem to have been expecting trams along Chepstow Road to the Celtic Manor complex in the East and Cardiff Road past the Royal Gwent Hospital to the Celtic Springs office/industrial area to the west.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

KAWC - with a soft "C" = "Caws" (Welsh for cheese) ....

I will get my coat......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Some people in Newport seem to have been expecting trams along Chepstow Road to the Celtic Manor complex in the East and Cardiff Road past the Royal Gwent Hospital to the Celtic Springs office/industrial area to the west.

As I said on the South Wales Metro thread someone needs to get a map out using the "real going to happen crayon tool"

 

[krus_aragon]

KAWC - with a soft "C" = "Caws" (Welsh for cheese) ....

I will get my coat......

The next service for Caerphilly is the KAWC...

 

[Envoy]

I see that recently a GWR 158 was in Cardiff & they wanted it on the other side of the Bristol Channel. With the Severn Tunnel shut, ATW said they could attach it to one of their trains & take it to Gloucester. However, the GWR could not then attach it to one of their Class 166 trains to take it to Bristol and could not spare a driver to take it on its own. So, with all these new trains on order for the Wales & Borders from Stadler & CAF, can anybody tell me whether or not they will be able to be coupled together in the event that some form of ‘rescue’ is required by another train? Furthermore, will these new trains be able to be coupled to the older 170’s that the franchise will be aquiring?