Rail nationalisation: ideas, suggestions, predictions etc

[yorkie]

This is a spin-off discussion, sparked from the thread regarding Labour's promise to renationalise the railways:

Labour promises rail nationalisation within five years of coming to power

Front page on several of tomorrows papers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/24/labour-promises-rail-nationalisation-within-five-years-of-coming-to-power This is in advance of key speech by Lousie Haigh tomorrow Labour will fully nationalise the train network within five years of...

www.railforums.co.uk

This thread is to enable people to post their wish lists, predictions, proposals, ideas and anything else of a speculative nature on the subject of potential nationalisation.

So, what do people want to see happen? How should it be done?

Also, on the subject of rail fares in particular, how can we avoid fare rises through the abolishment of TOC-specific fares and should any safeguards be put in place?

 

[uww11x]

Pie in the sky proposals to win some votes. There's no money left for a public railway. The only way is to full privatise again and let the companies get on with running the show without DFT interfering. Virgin Trains was the best operator to ever on the WCML!

 

[Mgameing123]

Pie in the sky proposals to win some votes. There's no money left for a public railway. The only way is to full privatise again and let the companies get on with running the show without DFT interfering. Virgin Trains was the best operator to ever on the WCML!

Rail fares will hopefully drop or atleast the railway will get better investment instead of rolling stock cuts on the busiest services.

 

[JonathanH]

Rail fares will hopefully drop or atleast the railway will get better investment instead of rolling stock cuts on the busiest services.

Why will rail fares drop? The direction of travel towards Contactless payments for local travel and advance purchase over longer distances is very clear through initiatives like Project Oval and PAYG, and the LNER fares reforms being developed within the nationalised part of the current structure.

 

[yorksrob]

Pie in the sky proposals to win some votes. There's no money left for a public railway. The only way is to full privatise again and let the companies get on with running the show without DFT interfering. Virgin Trains was the best operator to ever on the WCML!

There's nothing remotely pie in the sky about it. They're not actually proposing to renationalise anything in the traditional sense, just not re-privatise franchises as they expire.

 

[Bantamzen]

There's nothing remotely pie in the sky about it. They're not actually proposing to renationalise anything in the traditional sense, just not re-privatise franchises as they expire.

What does seem to be pie in the sky is the best price guarantee. Given that even these forums require experts to wade through the tangled mess of ticket pricing to help build ticketing search engines, what chance will a new government have?

 

[yorksrob]

A passenger standards authority holding the railway to account is a good idea. Of course, it would depend on what teeth it has, however given there's clearly no one performing this role now, anythings likely to be an improvement (see various threads detailing the slide in customer service).

What does seem to be pie in the sky is the best price guarantee. Given that even these forums require experts to wade through the tangled mess of ticket pricing to help build ticketing search engines, what chance will a new government have?

A commitment to fares regulation and not removing off-peak would be a good move here.

 

[Kite159]

Hello 'Great British Railways'...
Goodbye those good value cheaper TOC only flexible fares which offer a sizeable saving to restrict yourself to services by that TOC. Ie the London Northwestern only fares between London & Birmingham/Crewe etc.

Or based on the LNER experiment, goodbye cheaper fares as the only flexible tickets available will be the anytime as it will be 'simple'.

 

[yorksrob]

Hello 'Great British Railways'...
Goodbye those good value cheaper TOC only flexible fares which offer a sizeable saving to restrict yourself to services by that TOC. Ie the London Northwestern only fares between London & Birmingham/Crewe etc.

Or based on the LNER experiment, goodbye cheaper fares as the only flexible tickets available will be the anytime as it will be 'simple'.

The first one, yes that will likely be a loss and a sad one at that.

The second one, there's nothing to say the new, more harmonised railway will carry through LNER's abolition of off-peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does seem to be pie in the sky is the best price guarantee. Given that even these forums require experts to wade through the tangled mess of ticket pricing to help build ticketing search engines, what chance will a new government have?

Is this not (give or take an odd loophole raised here a short while ago) exactly what KeyGo does?

 

[Bantamzen]

Is this not (give or take an odd loophole raised here a short while ago) exactly what KeyGo does?

Being honest, I'd never heard of this until you mentioned it here. I've had a quick nosey at the website and if I'm reading it correctly its limited to Thameslink, with a few exceptions? If so its a starter for ten for sure, but Labour seem to want to make this available nationally, even though fare structures are horrible confusing at the mo across different TOCs. Don't get me wrong, if they could make it work across the country and modes I'd welcome it, certainly for my regular trips between Yorkshire and Cheshire and football away days. I'm just not sure its going to be doable in the timescales they are suggesting.

 

[JonathanH]

The second one, there's nothing to say the new, more harmonised railway will carry through LNER's abolition of off-peak.

You hope that, but who is advising political parties on fares reform?

Contactless payments seems high on everyone's agenda, across all political views, and is mentioned in the news stories. The natural corollary is that something is needed for longer distance travel. If Labour ask the industry, then advance purchase is the stated preference, particularly as it avoids overcrowding through recognising there is finite capacity.

 

[BostonGeorge]

The only thing that matters is whether this will lead to significantly lower prices and a more reliable service for the consumer. And based on everything I have read, neither of those are likely to happen. There needs to be serious political will to get people out of their cars and on to the railway. This is 2024 - I am failing to understand why ticket prices for underbooked services cannot be lowered significantly on the day or close to the departure time. I could build that software myself if I were privy to the max capacity on each train, and the current amount of tickets distributed. WHY are operators and the DfT content with running trains with barely a smattering of people aboard? They are running anyway, so just find a way of filling them up. This isn't difficult.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Hello 'Great British Railways'...
Goodbye those good value cheaper TOC only flexible fares which offer a sizeable saving to restrict yourself to services by that TOC. Ie the London Northwestern only fares between London & Birmingham/Crewe etc.

Or based on the LNER experiment, goodbye cheaper fares as the only flexible tickets available will be the anytime as it will be 'simple'.

Another way of putting that is:

Goodbye those overpriced "any permitted" (etc) fares which cost a premium to not restrict yourself to a given TOC (and therby place yourself at risk of making an easy mistake and being penalised for it).

 

[fandroid]

A simple start on the tickets front would be to unify the various Smartcard setups that now exist on local railways serving London. The current fragmentation is some sort of nasty joke.

I see the overall national fares issue as being the most difficult task to confront. It will need some fairly brutal intervention to bring it into order, having had 30 years in which the entropy of fragmentation has expanded in the faux names of "competition" and "innovation".

 

[Kite159]

Another way of putting that is:

Goodbye those overpriced "any permitted" (etc) fares which cost a premium to not restrict yourself to a given TOC (and therby place yourself at risk of making an easy mistake and being penalised for it).

The any permitted will become the standard fare unless you are living in a fantasy where the £69 for the any permitted off-peak return between London & Birmingham will come down in price to cover the loss of the 'LNR only' product (£42 for the off-peak return, £32 for the more restrictive super off-peak return).

I'm sure they will get round it by offering a wider range of booked train only advances which will disappear at weekends or times of predicted high demand where you can put yourself at risk at making an easy mistake and being penalised for it.

 

[rd749249]

I want nationalisation to re-introduce the safeguarded benefits once lost.

 

[yorksrob]

You hope that, but who is advising political parties on fares reform?

Contactless payments seems high on everyone's agenda, across all political views, and is mentioned in the news stories. The natural corollary is that something is needed for longer distance travel. If Labour ask the industry, then advance purchase is the stated preference, particularly as it avoids overcrowding through recognising there is finite capacity.

Well, I suppose part of it comes down to people like us making sure its on the agenda.

On the plus side they've said that they've got "no plans" to close ticket offices - so one would hope that any changes that do take place are less precipitous than last year's fiasco.

 

[Howardh]

There are so many today including those split-ticketing sites, will split-ticketing even be necessary? Will just having the one company remove these irregularities?

 

[A0wen]

The only thing that matters is whether this will lead to significantly lower prices and a more reliable service for the consumer. And based on everything I have read, neither of those are likely to happen. There needs to be serious political will to get people out of their cars and on to the railway. This is 2024 - I am failing to understand why ticket prices for underbooked services cannot be lowered significantly on the day or close to the departure time. I could build that software myself if I were privy to the max capacity on each train, and the current amount of tickets distributed. WHY are operators and the DfT content with running trains with barely a smattering of people aboard? They are running anyway, so just find a way of filling them up. This isn't difficult.

Bit in bold - I think this is fundamentally misguided - the main reasons for travel are shopping (18%) and commuting including to / from school, college etc (13%). In the case of the former, the majority of shopping is for regular needs e.g. food and people will tend to shop at supermarkets within their local town, or at a push a neighbouring town - that's not the kind of traffic rail is in any way placed to pick up. To a large extend the same goes for commuting - unless people are travelling into the centre of a major city such as London, Birmingham or Manchester, rail is quite impractical for most commutes - the average commuting time is 30 mins, which at an average speed of 30 mph is about 15 miles - unless somebody lives next to their departure station and their destination is near their arrival point, their commute will be extended.

If you want to reduce car use then you need to look at its main uses and look at the best way to address that - and frankly the bus is better placed for local journeys which are the ones which people make most often.

 

[yorkie]

There are so many today including those split-ticketing sites, will split-ticketing even be necessary? Will just having the one company remove these irregularities?

Good luck devising a system where it is never ever cheaper and/or necessary to purchase two or more tickets for one journey. If anyone wants to give it a go, I'd be interested to hear the proposals, but so far no-one has come up with anything that stands up to scrutiny.

Have you been to Spain, Italy, France etc and tried to book a journey from small stations in different regions, with InterCity services for the middle bit? You are often forced to split!

 

[Howardh]

Good luck devising a system where it is never ever cheaper and/or necessary to purchase two or more tickets for one journey.

Have you been to Spain, Italy, France etc and tried to book a journey from small stations in different regions, with InterCity services for the middle bit? You are often forced to split!

No, can't say I have, although I do know Netherlands system well enough! But it does seem bizarre to me that you can get a cheaper ticket (say) Bolton > Euston if you do Bolton/Manchester, Manchester/(say)Crewe then Crewe/London. Same journey, same person, often the same train from Manchester to London. I get starting peak and going into off-peak, splitting makes total sense then!

A mate suggested this as analogy; would you go into a pub and find two halves of bitter cheaper than buying the full pint?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A mate suggested this as analogy; would you go into a pub and find two halves of bitter cheaper than buying the full pint?

Possibly not, but you might well do so in a supermarket.

 

[Thirteen]

The railways under local control will be interesting because they're not nationalised in the traditional sense but I suspect some of the metro mayors would like control of services. TfL gaining control of Thameslink, Southeastern, Southern and maybe South Western would be interesting.

 

[physics34]

The railways under local control will be interesting because they're not nationalised in the traditional sense but I suspect some of the metro mayors would like control of services. TfL gaining control of Thameslink, Southeastern, Southern and maybe South Western would be interesting.

I considered this recently. A few years back it was mooted that SE and southern metro services could become part of London Overground.... there was no way though that the Tory DfT would cooperate with a Labour mayor, so after the next election we could see the position change.

 

[A0wen]

No, can't say I have, although I do know Netherlands system well enough! But it does seem bizarre to me that you can get a cheaper ticket (say) Bolton > Euston if you do Bolton/Manchester, Manchester/(say)Crewe then Crewe/London. Same journey, same person, often the same train from Manchester to London. I get starting peak and going into off-peak, splitting makes total sense then!

A mate suggested this as analogy; would you go into a pub and find two halves of bitter cheaper than buying the full pint?

But this is because we don't charge a 'flat rate per mile' for train journeys (and never have) - and as has been discussed on previous threads on this, if we did, it would probably lead to some journeys increasing quite significantly because of how heavily subsidised they and arguing all journeys should be subsidised to that level is economically unrealisitic.

 

[A0wen]

The railways under local control will be interesting because they're not nationalised in the traditional sense but I suspect some of the metro mayors would like control of services. TfL gaining control of Thameslink, Southeastern, Southern and maybe South Western would be interesting.

The problem with, for example, TFL gaining control of Thameslink is the number of people who would be impacted yet would be unable to vote on the Mayor who is responsible for TFL.

On the north side the London boundary ends around Elstree & Borehamwood, yet the Thameslink provides the majority of passenger services for the next 40 miles on the Midland Mainline, over on the GN side Hadley Wood is the boundary yet Peterborough is 65 miles away. On the south side you've got about 50 miles from Brighton to the London boundary - that's an awful lot of people who would find their train services being set by a politician who they would have no way of changing if they don't agree with them.

 

[The Planner]

I want nationalisation to re-introduce the safeguarded benefits once lost.

Not sure how that benefits the fare paying punter myself.

 

[ainsworth74]

A commitment to fares regulation and not removing off-peak would be a good move here.

See I'm not convinced that what's necessarily a "good move" is to continue to have the existing fares structure fixed in aspic as it has been for the last thirty years. I find it hard to believe, for instance, that DB and SNCF have the same fares structure in 2024 that they did in 1994! Certainly BR didn't have the same fares structure in 1994 that it had in 1964 and if anyone tries to persuade me that in an alternate universe where BR wasn't broken up and privatised it would have in 2024 the same structure as it had in 1994 then I'm sorry but I simply don't believe that's credible. One of BRs strengths was its commercial flexibility and nous when it came to the products it offered.

So just saying "We should stick to the fares structure we've had for 30 years and bring back off-peak tickets" isn't necessarily a good move.

What it actually requires is honest (none of this LNER BS about it being an unalloyed good for passengers) reform which isn't beholden to HM Treasury dogma (see the kneecapping of flexi-seasons) and isn't potentially fractured across a dozen odd different operators all doing something slightly different from each other and sowing confusion (see fares in general to be quite honest). There will be winners and losers in this scenario come what may, of course there will, but we need to accept what worked in the 1990s, sort of worked in the 2000s, began creaking alarmingly in the 2010s and is now potentially harming the industry in the 2020s needs to be reformed.

 

[JonathanH]

I want nationalisation to re-introduce the safeguarded benefits once lost.

It might be noted that those benefits were only safeguarded for the relevant employees because of privatisation. There are plenty of examples of employers reducing terms and conditions for new staff, and sometimes for existing staff.