Lack of air conditioning on inner-suburban units

[Wombat]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, and also sorry if it degenerates into a rant.

Having become thoroughly fed up of 455s during the hot weather, I'm interested in knowing why they were built without air conditioning. Wikipedia (I know, sorry again) states that it's because "they were designed for inner suburban services" but that hardly answers the question - you can spend an hour on one of those things, much of it spent standing up during the evening peak, in truly horrible conditions.

I'm just a bit baffled. Somebody somewhere must have said, during the design phase of these appalling contraptions, "Shall we install aircon?" and someone else must have said "No need, it'll be fine". I disagree that it's fine! I'm far from convinced that it's safe.

So I realise that 30-odd years on much will have been lost to antiquity, but can anybody shed light on the reasoning?

And are we still building trains without aircon?

 

[SWT_USER]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, and also sorry if it degenerates into a rant.

Having become thoroughly fed up of 455s during the hot weather, I'm interested in knowing why they were built without air conditioning. Wikipedia (I know, sorry again) states that it's because "they were designed for inner suburban services" but that hardly answers the question - you can spend an hour on one of those things, much of it spent standing up during the evening peak, in truly horrible conditions.

I'm just a bit baffled. Somebody somewhere must have said, during the design phase of these appalling contraptions, "Shall we install aircon?" and someone else must have said "No need, it'll be fine". I disagree that it's fine! I'm far from convinced that it's safe.

So I realise that 30-odd years on much will have been lost to antiquity, but can anybody shed light on the reasoning?

And are we still building trains without aircon?

It costs too much. The same reason GWR have never bothered fixing the Aircon on the 166's or fitting it to the 165's.

Not sure which trains were the last built without air con but I'm very surprised the relatively new Southeastern metro trains (375's?) don't have it.

 

[47802]

And are we still building trains without aircon?

No everything currently on order is Air Conditioned as far as I am aware, except of course the recycled D train which doesn't have any announced orders, and 319 flex. Certainly some Non Air Con trains are likely to be around for quite a few years yet.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 455's were a BR product built on the cheap using salvaged parts from older 1940s/1950s built suburban stock and the 455/7's being built as 3-car units and entered service with former 1979-built 508 trailers

 

[InOban]

Remember that in the days of BR, trains were built down to a price that the Treasury would accept.

 

[Wombat]

No everything currently on order is Air Conditioned as far as I am aware

Well thanks heavens for small mercies; hopefully I will live long enough to see the current crop retired!

I'm surprised that cost is such a factor. Given the overall cost of a train, I'd have thought that providing aircon would be a trivial fraction in comparison. That said, I'm speaking from a position of utter ignorance on that front, though I still maintain that the conditions onboard during the summer are not something that a reasonable person would find acceptable.

 

[yorksrob]

The rolling stock the 455's replaced (the 4SUB's) had a large droplight in the door to each seating bay (I.e. a big window that you could push down), so whilst they too, like the 455's were pre-air conditioning, when it got really hot, passengers had a lot more access to fresh air.

 

[physics34]

I prefer the open windows to air con sometimes. Which there was a choice of both.

 

[Polarbear]

The 455's were a BR product built on the cheap using salvaged parts from older 1940s/1950s built suburban stock and the 455/7's being built as 3-car units and entered service with former 1979-built 508 trailers

Not sure about "salvaged" parts being used in the 455's? The 442's did use the traction equipment that was on the former 4-REP units.

They aren't the most elegant design that's for sure, but as I recall, they weren't that cheap at the time either. They were built more out of necessity to replace the 4-SUB's on the BR South West division.

As regards the lack of air-con, the kit would have been more expensive back in the 1980's. As such, air con was only standard specification for long distance services (Inter City stock). It just wasn't seen as a necessity at the time.

I'm far from convinced that it's safe.

The fitting of air con isn't a safety requirement for any public transport as far as I'm aware.

 

[randyrippley]

whats the point of aircon in a coach with doors which open directly into the passenger cabin and are opened every five or ten minutes? It will never get a chance to work properly: by the time the temperature is stable the doors will be opened again.
It only works on trains with long gaps between stops, and ideally trains with end vestibules

 

[cjmillsnun]

Not sure about "salvaged" parts being used in the 455's? The 442's did use the traction equipment that was on the former 4-REP units.

They aren't the most elegant design that's for sure, but as I recall, they weren't that cheap at the time either. They were built more out of necessity to replace the 4-SUB's on the BR South West division.

As regards the lack of air-con, the kit would have been more expensive back in the 1980's. As such, air con was only standard specification for long distance services (Inter City stock). It just wasn't seen as a necessity at the time.



The fitting of air con isn't a safety requirement for any public transport as far as I'm aware.

So the re-used motors and traction equipment weren't salvaged parts? The 455s (at least the 455/8s) re-used parts from the 4SUBS

 

[Jonny]

Do the class 455s still have opening (hopper-type?) windows?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Do the class 455s still have opening (hopper-type?) windows?

Yes they do

 

[D365]

Doesn't appear to have been mentioned but if OP isn't aware, the Class 455/456, 458 and 707 fleets will be replaced entirely by a new-build Aventra (Bombardier) fleet with air-con as standard.

 

[5920]

The motor alternators would not sustain air conditioning equipment for the saloons let alone all the other structural changes. These units are going in the bin as it stands. 3 years to put up with it.

I use the units daily. They are hot. But I am flabbergasted how many times I see a unit in the morning with all the windows closed. Once the heat gets in there it stays. The 456s I think are hotter than the 455

 

[cjmillsnun]

Doesn't appear to have been mentioned but if OP isn't aware, the Class 455/456, 458 and 707 fleets will be replaced entirely by a new-build Aventra (Bombardier) fleet with air-con as standard.

On SWR (SWT) yes, but GTR will be hanging on to their 455s for now.

 

[Malcolmffc]

One of th reasons for the lack of improvements to inner suburban stock has been the fact that they mostly serve a captive market (commuters) so there's no incentive for the TOC to invest in improvements. Longer distance pax have more options so get better trains.

It's taken a change of operator on SW to change the situation.

 

[DelW]

When the 455s were built, air conditioning was much less common than it is now. It was then virtually unknown on UK spec cars, and only became relatively common in cars in the late 1990s.

I suspect also that suburban units were less likely than long distance trains to get aircon, because their doors are opened much more frequently, and open directly into saloons rather than vestibules, so increasing the load on the system.

 

[Wombat]

Doesn't appear to have been mentioned but if OP isn't aware, the Class 455/456, 458 and 707 fleets will be replaced entirely by a new-build Aventra (Bombardier) fleet with air-con as standard.

I wasn't aware! Is that the case on all SWT lines? If so, colour me a happy Wombat

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So the re-used motors and traction equipment weren't salvaged parts? The 455s (at least the 455/8s) re-used parts from the 4SUBS

The first 455/8s built also re-used jumper cables from class 76 locos.

 

[Bornin1980s]

This re-use of motors and other parts sounds like a great way of avoiding waste, but can it ever be done again?

Back on topic, has air conditioning really gotten any cheaper or more economical since the eighties?

 

[wastedlife]

whats the point of aircon in a coach with doors which open directly into the passenger cabin and are opened every five or ten minutes? It will never get a chance to work properly: by the time the temperature is stable the doors will be opened again.
It only works on trains with long gaps between stops, and ideally trains with end vestibules

Utter nonsense. Have you ever been on the metro in Hong Kong or Singapore?Far hotter and more humid than the UK ever will be, doors opening more frequently than once every 5-10 minutes, train equally as packed as a 455 in rush hour, but blissfully cold. The only advantage said metro services have is being underground. I know air conditioned shops in South America that are completely open to the street, but blow an air curtain to retain the cold air inside.

Europe has a continent-wide bizarre attitude to air conditioning that Asia and the Americas don't have - we prat about with daft concepts like (as SWT put it) "cooling to 24 degrees" or something like that, that result in parts of the same train being pleasantly freezing, and other parts of the same train being staler than week old underpants. The RoW just turns the system onto cool and the fan up to high and lets you get cold.

 

[kevjs]

but blow an air curtain to retain the cold air inside.

Are those as nasty to walk through as the curtain of hot air many shops in the UK have - out of the freezing cold, through an oven, into a slightly too cold shop... Just shut the doors - muppets.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wasn't aware! Is that the case on all SWT lines?

Well yes, except for Island Line all the SW franchise stock will be air-con. 444/450 and 158/159 are already air-con fitted.

 

[jimm]

Europe has a continent-wide bizarre attitude to air conditioning that Asia and the Americas don't have - we prat about with daft concepts like (as SWT put it) "cooling to 24 degrees" or something like that, that result in parts of the same train being pleasantly freezing, and other parts of the same train being staler than week old underpants. The RoW just turns the system onto cool and the fan up to high and lets you get cold.

Or maybe much Europe just has a climate that isn't quite as extreme most of the time as those places, with lower average temperatures and humidity - which tend to be the key drivers for use of air conditioning.

Average temperatures in London in July and August are a less than scorching 19C. So it gets a bit hotter (and sometimes stickier) for a few weeks of the year - it's not exactly Bangkok, is it?

And all the coal and oil burned to allow Americans to 'just turn the system on to cool and the fan up to high' has not exactly been great for climate change, in case you hadn't noticed...

 

[Hadders]

I suspect the electrical supply requirements of running trains with more air con could put too much strain on the 3rd rail electrical supply.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the 455s were built, air conditioning was much less common than it is now. It was then virtually unknown on UK spec cars, and only became relatively common in cars in the late 1990s.
I suspect also that suburban units were less likely than long distance trains to get aircon, because their doors are opened much more frequently, and open directly into saloons rather than vestibules, so increasing the load on the system.

Air conditioning was regarded by BR NSE as "unaffordable" right through the Mk3 EMU (except 442s) and Networker builds (inc 165/6 Turbos), also Regional 323s.
Intercity had aircon on all builds since Mk2e, and throughout Mk3/4.
Regional went with aircon in 158/9 DMUs, but the spec was inadequate.

Generally, aircon equipment is now much better value, and is expected by passengers.
The requirement takes its toll on the overall train spec, though, and the price.

 

[Mikey C]

Hopper windows on a hot day are pretty ineffective, when compared to the drop and sliding windows of older stock

The 376s must be the last stock built without air conditioning, indeed the only post privatisation stock without aircon (other than the 139). It must be considered a mistake, seeing that the 378s that followed do have aircon.

 

[TheEdge]

This re-use of motors and other parts sounds like a great way of avoiding waste, but can it ever be done again?

Back on topic, has air conditioning really gotten any cheaper or more economical since the eighties?

Probably not, you end up with ancient tech soldiering on, as has been pointed out the traction motors are of 40s/50s vintage, that's served well.

Also the recycling of equipment was a very Southern region thing in relation to their EMUs. I think Southern (the Big 4 company) started the habit and the BR Southern region carried it on up until the 455s and 442s.

 

[Welly]

Having become thoroughly fed up of 455s during the hot weather, I'm interested in knowing why they were built without air conditioning.

Try riding the 142s daily in hot weather and then you will appreciate your 455s!