Lack of redevelopment to Leeds city station

[gorgonwilliam]

I used Leeds Station for the very first time a couple of months ago and found it perfectly adequate for its purpose - waiting briefly for trains or exiting trains. The train service would be the same no matter how posh the station looked to waiting passengers. I would think the government were heavily involved in the redevelopment of King's Cross and St. Pancras. Such multi-million pounds redevelopments could not possibly be done out of the revenue from fares

 

[Deerfold]

I would think the government were heavily involved in the redevelopment of King's Cross and St. Pancras. Such multi-million pounds redevelopments could not possibly be done out of the revenue from fares

Well, the government own Network Rail.

They'll be getting quite a bit from retail rentals at both of these shopping centres.

 

[ExRes]

I used Leeds Station for the very first time a couple of months ago and found it perfectly adequate for its purpose - waiting briefly for trains or exiting trains. The train service would be the same no matter how posh the station looked to waiting passengers. I would think the government were heavily involved in the redevelopment of King's Cross and St. Pancras. Such multi-million pounds redevelopments could not possibly be done out of the revenue from fares

If the government were heavily involved in the redevelopment of St Pancras then, on that basis alone, Labour should never be allowed to form a government again

The development was for the sake of Eurostar and the retail trade, not for running a service on the Midland Mainline or for head-up-our-arses southerners, that's for sure. The links to Underground services are atrocious and the closure of Kings Cross Thameslink was a crime, the whole station is choked at the best of times, let alone rush hour

Oh yes, we get all the best down here, at least when the station is in chaos everyone can go to the champagne bar as, of course, us southerners are all rolling in dosh

 

[Clip]

For the benefit of you head-up-your-arse Southerners, Leeds station was upgraded in 1999/2000 to deal with west end approach congestion where six double track routes (12 tracks) converged into just four tracks. The opportunity was taken to incorporate the adjacent old Midland Railway Wellington Street station platforms into the new station. Growth was estimated at no more than 1% per annum and design for the station was in accordance with forecast.

When the Northern franchise was awarded in 2004 it was awarded on a "no growth" contract during the franchise period. Actual growth since 1999 has been 72%. This is why Leeds station needs rebuilding again now to cope with 26M passengers and 2.7M interchanging passengers annually, 60% more than forecast.

I agree with many that the new south entrance is too expensive but it is a way of relieving pressure on the main entrance. It is expensive because that end of the main footbridge just happens to be over the middle of the River Aire.

Whilst I am a Northerner albeit one who lives down south I still take umbridge to be told that we have our head up our arses. Our posts were directed at the claim that no money has been spent on Leedsd since the 60s or whatever it was and merely pointing out that the person who said so was wrong.

Now take that chip off your shoulder, it makes you look silly.

 

[AndyHudds]

Where as the platforms are functional they are a bit dingy, got to agree the roof could do with a good clean and the 60's concourse is drab but on the whole it's quite functional but that's as far as it goes really.

Is the old concourse listed? The Queens Hotel is but I can't find any reference to the 'art deco' concourse being listed, which I quite like, although it isn't the best example of art deco granted.

As for the south entrance is their enough foot traffic round that side? The only time I'm round there is when I'm coming back from Elland Road, which given my team only play there once a year, that isn't much, but it would be handy for Elland Road.

 

[EM2]

The development was for the sake of Eurostar and the retail trade, not for running a service on the Midland Mainline or for head-up-our-arses southerners, that's for sure. The links to Underground services are atrocious and the closure of Kings Cross Thameslink was a crime, the whole station is choked at the best of times, let alone rush hour

If that were the case, how come EMT now run five trains an hour out of there and run later?

 

[47802]

The most immediate problem is the small drop off point which can cause traffic issues on air street, the multi storey car park should be demolished and rebuilt larger further westward where the current street level parking is, this would allow expansion of the drop off/short wait area.

 

[ExRes]

If that were the case, how come EMT now run five trains an hour out of there and run later?

Run later ?, one train 35 minutes later than it used to be that takes two and a half hours to get to Leicester from what I can see, some venture into the 21st century that is

Five trains an hour is down to the obvious time saving due to 222s replacing 170s and the re-opening of Corby

 

[EM2]

Run later ?, one train 35 minutes later than it used to be that takes two and a half hours to get to Leicester from what I can see, some venture into the 21st century that is

Five trains an hour is down to the obvious time saving due to 222s replacing 170s and the re-opening of Corby

And if St Pancras were not suitable for running a service on the MML, that wouldn't be possible. Especially as at the weekends, it's not unknown for them to run their service AND FCC to run four an hour. Sounds pretty suitable to me.

 

[ExRes]

And if St Pancras were not suitable for running a service on the MML, that wouldn't be possible. Especially as at the weekends, it's not unknown for them to run their service AND FCC to run four an hour. Sounds pretty suitable to me.

Before the Eurostar shopping centre was opened St Pancras had 6 working platforms, numbers 2 to 7, a berthing road between platfoms 2 and 3, plus Churchyard Sidings just outside the station

MML would have been easily capable of running 5 trains an hour, plus berthing without trudging up to Cricklewood all the time and FCC would have had access to 2 platforms, if required, as well as their normal through services

Have I missed out any more of the benefits of the current station ?

 

[EM2]

Have I missed out any more of the benefits of the current station ?

High speed Southeastern services, more destinations served, easier interchange between Thameslink and MML, easier access to KX, bigger concourse areas, step-free access throughout?
And if it's that bad, why do passengers not agree?
http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/news/articles/is-busiest-best
http://stpancras.com/news/archive/2013/august/st-pancras-named-the-uks-best-station/

 

[3141]

I am getting sick and tired of London getting all the money to improve it's stations.

Manchester Victoria, for example.

 

[Mugby]

When I was at Leeds today there was a very strong smell of fresh paint all over the concourse.

 

[34D]

High speed Southeastern services, more destinations served, easier interchange between Thameslink and MML, easier access to KX, bigger concourse areas, step-free access throughout?
And if it's that bad, why do passengers not agree?
http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/news/articles/is-busiest-best
http://stpancras.com/news/archive/2013/august/st-pancras-named-the-uks-best-station/

If you ask me, the track from the MML to the southeastern platforms should have been left in.

Re Leeds, I agree that 15 years on, more work is needed.

 

[lincolnshire]

You're quite right that Leeds station was modified around 10 years ago to expand it to cope with the expected increase in passenger numbers. Extra platforms were added to widen the station as well as putting a new roof on so that it covers the new platforms.

When they designed the new station they did not think about maintaining its roof spaces and cleaning the roof windows.

My main gripe is the concourse itself looks god awful and doesn't look very appealing when compared to Manchester Piccadilly as an example. It's going to take far more than a few tins of white paint on the ceiling to brighten up the concourse after the station received complaints for being dark and dingy.

The concourse area needs some re-working to assist flow and makeing it a more welcomeing area for passengers, as stated a few tins of paint will not make much differance.

I use the station every day and the roof and gantries are covered in diesel soot, pigeon poop as well as pigeon feathers.

The last time I was at Leeds I was thinking just the same, it could do with a bloody good spring clean, but the next problem is when you going to do it then? as it will need isolations of the 25kv overheads and line blockages etc.
By the time thay have been set up and isolations carried out its time for the overheads to be back on etc. so that Neville Hill can sort trains and get them down to station for the morning trains. Also arrangements for the TPE airport trains to get in and out of platforms. It could do with a Christmas shutdown to clean down the station roof, supporting steel columns, walkways and overhead, equipment of soot, fluff, grime, pigeon,s and there feathers and poo. Not an easy task .

 

[306024]

For the benefit of you head-up-your-arse Southerners..........

Good to see insults being used to support an argument :roll:

Ever used the Southern side of Victoria Station? (the one in London ), makes Leeds look positively spacious.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
The last time I was at Leeds I was thinking just the same, it could do with a bloody good spring clean, but the next problem is when you going to do it then? as it will need isolations of the 25kv overheads and line blockages etc.....

My opinion of Leeds station has oft been repeated on here :roll:
However, innocent question: when designing a rebuild of such a complex station, would the architects have taken any notice of cleaning arrangements, and perhaps incorporated a sectionalised cleaning schedule to minimise disruption?

 

[Bald Rick]

My opinion of Leeds station has oft been repeated on here :roll:
However, innocent question: when designing a rebuild of such a complex station, would the architects have taken any notice of cleaning arrangements, and perhaps incorporated a sectionalised cleaning schedule to minimise disruption?

Possibly not.

 

[ExRes]

My opinion of Leeds station has oft been repeated on here :roll:
However, innocent question: when designing a rebuild of such a complex station, would the architects have taken any notice of cleaning arrangements, and perhaps incorporated a sectionalised cleaning schedule to minimise disruption?

I think you'll find that architects don't take any notice of anything except their own aesthetic design goals, practicality is a word removed from the handbook of how to become a renowned and revered architectural genius

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, the trainshed at Leeds has been built with a number of elevated walkways under the roof, so NR could probably give it a spring clean were they so inclined.

 

[EM2]

I think you'll find that architects don't take any notice of anything except their own aesthetic design goals, practicality is a word removed from the handbook of how to become a renowned and revered architectural genius

This is true, the architect that designed Sydney Opera House admitted that he had absolutely no idea how it could be built, when it was announced that he'd won the competition to design it.

 

[deltic08]

Good to see insults being used to support an argument :roll:

Ever used the Southern side of Victoria Station? (the one in London ), makes Leeds look positively spacious.

No insult, fact. Southerners including London centric Ministers and civil servants don't know what the North is like because they have not pulled their heads out to look. Most do not care how far the North has fallen behind the South and London in particular. If you take the time to read #30, you will discover why Leeds needs rebuilding again so soon. Lack of platforms on the west side for terminating trains as that is where the population centres of West Yorkshire are in relation to Leeds. It is a case of the North being short-changed in 1999 by London based decision-makers instead of doing a proper job at the time.

The same mistake is being made again as forecast growth for West Yorkshire to 2024 is 2.7% per annum for Network Rail infrastructure enhancement planning.

In the morning and evening peaks there are insufficient platforms and staircases to the main footbridge for the traffic on offer. Fact. One bottleneck Victoria (the one in London ) does not suffer from. One way to deal with growth is to increase train length but of course there is a shortage of carriages in the North because an order for 200 was cancelled four years ago unlike the South where orders for 2,000 were made. Eventually. Why do you think the North is so bitter?

 

[sirbobpaisley]

When I was at Leeds today there was a very strong smell of fresh paint all over the concourse.

That is because they have painted the ceiling of the main concourse. I seem to gather someone complained it was dark and dingy so a splash of white paint has been applied to brighten it up. I think it would have been better to rip the roof off and put in a glass roof like Kings across station instead of bothering with a few tins of cheap paint.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Leeds station seemed perfectly adequate to me, quite spacious as well, having waited there for ages for the night replacement coach to York!

I think your confusing the bus and coach station with the train station mate :roll:

 

[Grumpy]

I think you'll find that architects don't take any notice of anything except their own aesthetic design goals, practicality is a word removed from the handbook of how to become a renowned and revered architectural genius

Following the passing of the Construction Design and Management regulations a few years ago they don't really have that freedom.
Design teams now have to include a separate Planning Supervisor whose role is to ensure that not only can the design be safely built, but also safely maintained. I think the CDM regs came in after Leeds was designed

 

[ExRes]

Following the passing of the Construction Design and Management regulations a few years ago they don't really have that freedom.
Design teams now have to include a separate Planning Supervisor whose role is to ensure that not only can the design be safely built, but also safely maintained. I think the CDM regs came in after Leeds was designed

I'm sure you're correct and I have no argument with you at all, I wonder exactly when these regulations came into force though

Taking my old bugbear, St Pancras, like so many others I was amazed at the wonderfully designed windows on the western side of the extension, totally the wrong size which leave platforms 1 and 2 open to the elements and turn the platforms themselves into skating rinks, the pleasing distribution of plastic buckets whenever it rained to catch the rain which the newly renovated roof allowed in at it's joint with the old one, the disgraceful lack of escalators between the MML platforms and the shopping centre, sorry, the access to all other parts of the station, the queues that build up in the corridors where the left luggage and toilet area is

All these areas are built to the aesthetic standards that the architects and designers want, not to assist the running of a working station or, heaven forbid, the safety and comfort of passengers and staff

 

[asylumxl]

High speed Southeastern services, more destinations served, easier interchange between Thameslink and MML, easier access to KX, bigger concourse areas, step-free access throughout?


And if it's that bad, why do passengers not agree?


http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/news/articles/is-busiest-best


http://stpancras.com/news/archive/2013/august/st-pancras-named-the-uks-best-station/

Easier interchange between EMT and TL? May have been true before they messed around with the escalators. I don't think walking half way down the concourse while avoiding idiotic tourists is easy myself.



In the case of the EMT concourse, it is quite obviously an afterthought, though it was larger until EMT decided to install barriers and almost halved it while reducing the amount of seating. The installation of the barriers completely negated any benefits to passenger flow.



As for step free access I've seen TL lifts out of service more than a few times.



Am I right in remembering you work there?



Passengers who have passed through a few times may rate it highly, but as a commuter I know people similar to myself sure don't.

 

[Grumpy]

I'm sure you're correct and I have no argument with you at all, I wonder exactly when these regulations came into force though

Taking my old bugbear, St Pancras, like so many others I was amazed at the wonderfully designed windows on the western side of the extension, totally the wrong size which leave platforms 1 and 2 open to the elements and turn the platforms themselves into skating rinks, the pleasing distribution of plastic buckets whenever it rained to catch the rain which the newly renovated roof allowed in at it's joint with the old one, the disgraceful lack of escalators between the MML platforms and the shopping centre, sorry, the access to all other parts of the station, the queues that build up in the corridors where the left luggage and toilet area is

All these areas are built to the aesthetic standards that the architects and designers want, not to assist the running of a working station or, heaven forbid, the safety and comfort of passengers and staff

CDM regs came in around 2007.

I can understand your thinking, but I wonder how many of the problems are due to bad briefing by the Client.

Thus issues such as provision of escalators, toilet numbers, areas required for waiting, size of corridors, which areas need to be next to which etc etc need to be worked out by the Client's Planners and included in the brief. They should know their business better than a Designer.

When the building's finished the Architect will disappear but the Client will have to occupy/maintain it for many years, so it's in his operational and financial interest to make sure there is a tight and comprehensive brief.

Somehow I don't imagine the Architects working for the likes of Aldi or Lidl being given much freedom to vary what the Client wants.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can understand your thinking, but I wonder how many of the problems are due to bad briefing by the Client.

That's the standard excuse from an architect when they come up with something as spectacularly retarded as the new roof at Reading or Newport.

"It's not our fault mate, you never told us you wanted a roof that would stop people getting wet".

I think the main problem at St Pancras is that the domestic platforms were designed as an afterthought, and they don't really work as a result. I don't understand the gripes about the new Thameslink station, though; Kings Cross Thameslink was inconveniently placed and the narrow platforms meant it got dangerously overcrowded pretty quickly. Thameslink had outgrown the station.

 

[Deerfold]

I think the main problem at St Pancras is that the domestic platforms were designed as an afterthought, and they don't really work as a result. I don't understand the gripes about the new Thameslink station, though; Kings Cross Thameslink was inconveniently placed and the narrow platforms meant it got dangerously overcrowded pretty quickly. Thameslink had outgrown the station.

Inconvenient depends where you were going. From Platforms 1-8 at Kings X I can be at Kings X Thameslink a lot faster than St Pacras Thameslink.

 

[Tetchytyke]

True. To the north end of 1-8, and to 9-11, I think it is marginally quicker from St P. To the south end of 1-8 it's marginally quicker from the old Kings Cross, although it depends on the pedestrian lights on Pentonville Road.