Lack of redevelopment to Leeds city station

[gordonthemoron]

ofcourse, en-route from KX to Thameslink you could pop into the Flying Scotsman

 

[Deerfold]

ofcourse, en-route from KX to Thameslink you could pop into the Flying Scotsman

That's not quite en-route!

 

[EM2]

Easier interchange between EMT and TL? May have been true before they messed around with the escalators. I don't think walking half way down the concourse while avoiding idiotic tourists is easy myself.

Accidents on those escalators have reduced by over 20% since the change. If you don't walk down to the up escalators, take the lift?

In the case of the EMT concourse, it is quite obviously an afterthought, though it was larger until EMT decided to install barriers and almost halved it while reducing the amount of seating. The installation of the barriers completely negated any benefits to passenger flow.

That I agree with, although the seating has been increased recently.

As for step free access I've seen TL lifts out of service more than a few times.

Any lift or escalator can have a problem. But surely better that they're there than not at all?

Am I right in remembering you work there?
Passengers who have passed through a few times may rate it highly, but as a commuter I know people similar to myself sure don't.

You remember right. I know plenty of commuters that prefer it over the previous arrangements.
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Inconvenient depends where you were going. From Platforms 1-8 at Kings X I can be at Kings X Thameslink a lot faster than St Pacras Thameslink.

Depending on pedestrian and vehicle traffic, surely? And also how much you're carrying, I'd say.

 

[ExRes]

That's the standard excuse from an architect when they come up with something as spectacularly retarded as the new roof at Reading or Newport.

"It's not our fault mate, you never told us you wanted a roof that would stop people getting wet".

I think the main problem at St Pancras is that the domestic platforms were designed as an afterthought, and they don't really work as a result. I don't understand the gripes about the new Thameslink station, though; Kings Cross Thameslink was inconveniently placed and the narrow platforms meant it got dangerously overcrowded pretty quickly. Thameslink had outgrown the station.

This is very much a matter of opinion depending on what type of traveller you are, if you're travelling Eurostar or MML then the new Thameslink is a fantastic improvement, if you want Kings Cross then it's touch and go, once you've risen from the depths and made your way east across to KX then I don't see much difference from the old KX Thameslink station, whereas if you happen to be a commuter trying to get to work, then you would be one of the majority who screamed blue murder as they now have to get up from the new Thameslink and make their way south through the shoppers and Eurostar passengers to get to the Euston Road to then disperse to their workplaces and that is of no benefit whatsoever. The ideal, of course, would have been to keep KX Thameslink open in the rush hour which would have benefitted everyone and assisted passenger flow enormously

 

[EM2]

...they now have to get up from the new Thameslink and make their way south through the shoppers and Eurostar passengers to get to the Euston Road to then disperse to their workplaces and that is of no benefit whatsoever.

Why not just leave by the Midland Road doors, right by the Thameslink barrier line, and head south to Euston Road? Saves all that aggravation you're complaining about.

 

[jon0844]

Kings Cross station was perfectly functional before the improvements were made. I know this because I've been there a few times in the past.

I have to totally disagree with that. I wasn't particularly bothered by the crowded concourse, as I was getting a FCC train and mostly down near platforms 9-11 (and not having to wait to board an Intercity train) but for everyone else, it was hell.

But I do wonder what the station might look like in ten years, as that too is likely to need cleaning if it doesn't want to start looking grubby.

Taking my old bugbear, St Pancras, like so many others I was amazed at the wonderfully designed windows on the western side of the extension, totally the wrong size which leave platforms 1 and 2 open to the elements and turn the platforms themselves into skating rinks, the pleasing distribution of plastic buckets whenever it rained to catch the rain which the newly renovated roof allowed in at it's joint with the old one, the disgraceful lack of escalators between the MML platforms and the shopping centre, sorry, the access to all other parts of the station, the queues that build up in the corridors where the left luggage and toilet area is

All these areas are built to the aesthetic standards that the architects and designers want, not to assist the running of a working station or, heaven forbid, the safety and comfort of passengers and staff

I agree that the design issues, which cause problems in windy and wet weather (and indeed snow, which comes in and snows down on the undercroft) are rather embarrassing. Nice and romantic as it might look to have it snowing inside, it's not really very good when you'll soon have very slippery floors.

Meanwhile, there are various changes and tweaks that I can see going on at St Pancras. New signs (at long last) that seem to guide people around better, and might even point to the right places now (I recall signs pointing in the wrong direction to the lift to access the SET high speed platforms if you were coming from WH Smith/Vodafone).

Getting about St Pancras isn't actually that hard, but it requires good signs for those who aren't familar. I think that's starting to happen.

We no longer have two separate ticket offices (well, we do but they're both marked as the same - not by TOC) and hopefully one day the departure boards will be organised better (we can but hope). I do also wish they'd have used the amber LED boards, but that's unlikely to change until these ones break.

There are new toilets by the Eurostar arrivals which are a big improvement.

Overall, it's a station that has some great things and some very poor things. And some of the poor things might not be fixable, but will remain simply because of the station layout. Ultimately, you'd only fix all of these issues if you'd knocked down the old station and started from scratch - perhaps having a much wider station built from the outset.

As for step free access I've seen TL lifts out of service more than a few times.

The lifts for the FCC platforms are very often out of service. In fact, I've successfully used them once when needing to! Sure, I don't need them often - but I have absolutely no idea why they're out of service so often. Do they fail, are they soiled, are they just turned off to save electricity?!

The ones elsewhere in the station have always worked when I've seen them.

"It's not our fault mate, you never told us you wanted a roof that would stop people getting wet".

I think the main problem at St Pancras is that the domestic platforms were designed as an afterthought, and they don't really work as a result. I don't understand the gripes about the new Thameslink station, though; Kings Cross Thameslink was inconveniently placed and the narrow platforms meant it got dangerously overcrowded pretty quickly. Thameslink had outgrown the station.

King's Cross doesn't appear to have any leaks on the main concourse and I've not checked the platforms - but the glass shelter outside the front of the station (platforms 0-8) are a joke. Network Rail have attempted to fix things many times, but must have just given up. On a wet day, they leak like crazy and may as well not be there.

And, King's Cross Thameslink station was a nightmare. It was obviously going to be more convenient to some people, if working or living nearer to the station, but it wasn't safe. I have concerns about how good the new platforms will be when we get services increased in frequency and to multiple destinations come 2018 - but the platforms are somewhat wider than the Thameslink station. People would have been falling on the tracks daily!

 

[ExRes]

Why not just leave by the Midland Road doors, right by the Thameslink barrier line, and head south to Euston Road? Saves all that aggravation you're complaining about.

Indeed you can, and hope that it's not tipping down with rain for example or, if you walk down the east side of St Pancras, that Eurostar isn't suffering delays because, as you will be aware, this is where the Eurostar passengers 'waiting area' is, whatever you do, inside, outside, east side or west side the length of the walk is no different

 

[Grumpy]

That's the standard excuse from an architect when they come up with something as spectacularly retarded as the new roof at Reading or Newport.

"It's not our fault mate, you never told us you wanted a roof that would stop people getting wet".

.

Can't argue with that. I believe the architects were Grimshaws. On their website is some blurb bragging about Nunawading station
http://grimshaw-architects.com/project/nunawading-station-rail-separation-project/

One look at that tells you all you need to know about them. I wouldn't trust them with my money.

However again the responsibility lies with Network Rail who continue to employ them. Network Rail's property people surely know what designs of canopy perform best on their network and the brief should indicate that these be replicated in new projects.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Leeds could be improved immeasurably by demolishing and replacing the 1960's concourse, but as that's the only way onto the platforms I'm not sure how you'd keep the place open while you spent 2 years doing so! The roof needs a good clean of course.

A fairly simple (in the grand scheme of things) improvement would be to replace the Eastern footbridge with one that was a bit more substantial (wider/fully accessible) than the one there currently which looks like an afterthought. This could also be accessed from any new concourse if a way can be found to build one.

 

[yorksrob]

A fairly simple (in the grand scheme of things) improvement would be to replace the Eastern footbridge with one that was a bit more substantial (wider/fully accessible) than the one there currently which looks like an afterthought. This could also be accessed from any new concourse if a way can be found to build one.

This dates from the old 1960's rebuild, so perhaps should be classed as a "pre-thought".

 

[Mugby]

One thing which I find a pain at Leeds is the access to Platform 17.

I use this platform when I travel on the NR 'Express' service to Sheffield.
From the far end of the footbridge the steps extend quite some distance in the opposite direction along 16 before you have to double back to reach 17.

Sometimes it's the difference between catching or missing your train, especially if you get caught up in the crowd waiting at the bottom of the steps on 16.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This dates from the old 1960's rebuild, so perhaps should be classed as a "pre-thought".

That makes it even worse! I did think it was pretty much the same bridge that was there before the rebuild (barring the span to P16). It really should have been rebuilt then and widened. That would cause congestion along P8(c) though unless there was a second access point and gateline from the 1960s (or new! ) concourse.

One thing which I find a pain at Leeds is the access to Platform 17.

I use this platform when I travel on the NR 'Express' service to Sheffield.
From the far end of the footbridge the steps extend quite some distance in the opposite direction along 16 before you have to double back to reach 17.

Sometimes it's the difference between catching or missing your train, especially if you get caught up in the crowd waiting at the bottom of the steps on 16.

I don't often have cause to use 17, but I see what you mean about access. I do use P16 a lot, and it affects users of both. The 'Southern Entrance' project would seem to be an ideal opportunity to add a West-facing staircase and escalator- if there's room!

 

[yorksrob]

One thing which I find a pain at Leeds is the access to Platform 17.

I use this platform when I travel on the NR 'Express' service to Sheffield.
From the far end of the footbridge the steps extend quite some distance in the opposite direction along 16 before you have to double back to reach 17.

Sometimes it's the difference between catching or missing your train, especially if you get caught up in the crowd waiting at the bottom of the steps on 16.

Spot on !

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed you can, and hope that it's not tipping down with rain for example or, if you walk down the east side of St Pancras, that Eurostar isn't suffering delays because, as you will be aware, this is where the Eurostar passengers 'waiting area' is, whatever you do, inside, outside, east side or west side the length of the walk is no different

Midland Road referred to in the previous post is on the west of St Pancras. Although last time I tried, it seemed to be largely dodging the hotel deliveries and the taxis. To my mind St Pancras badly needs an exit from the upper level in the SW corner where the hotel is - I haven't tried shortcutting through the foyer!

 

[ExRes]

Midland Road referred to in the previous post is on the west of St Pancras. Although last time I tried, it seemed to be largely dodging the hotel deliveries and the taxis. To my mind St Pancras badly needs an exit from the upper level in the SW corner where the hotel is - I haven't tried shortcutting through the foyer!

Yes, I was mixing up my roads there but my point is still valid, Midland Road you can fight with the taxi rank and hotel, Pancras Road was equally as crowded with taxis and minibuses last time I was there along with the potential Eurostar chaos queue, internally you have the shops, Eurostar passengers and then the bottleneck of the Underground ticket office, all those working in Grays Inn Road and its environs have no option but to suffer this every morning and evening or use Farringdon and walk all that distance, such a lot of thought must have gone into the customer relations discussions before the station rebuild/facelift/whatever

Happy days

 

[jon0844]

Some tourists might turn up with bags the size of The Shard, but it's still quite easy to get around the station and transfer to the tube or King's Cross. I did it many times without major problems.

Both stations, and the underground ticket halls, are built to cope with large numbers of people.

It's not a big problem at all, except when some tube lines are overcrowded and they implement the deliberate funnelling of passengers through the gates (by restricting the number of open gates). But that's common throughout the tube network given the sheer numbers of people.

 

[Starmill]

Leeds City Station was largely rebuilt a short while ago, stop complaining

It's still something of a mess I'm afraid...

Stepping away from the North/South argument for a second, the buses are an obstruction and the main entrance is too narrow and forces you to walk down a narrow pathway between them and the wall. The front sign has the old national rail logo and the green strip is very faded. The old concourse needs a new floor, and as for the ticket offices the lot wants bombing and rebuilding! Access to P17 is atrocious. A station of 26million a year nobody tell me there isn't the money for improvements here, it should be made a priority - along with a damn good deep clean for every platform. Dead on about Leeds needing this to project a good image to visitors to the city.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, I was mixing up my roads there but my point is still valid, Midland Road you can fight with the taxi rank and hotel, Pancras Road was equally as crowded with taxis and minibuses last time I was there along with the potential Eurostar chaos queue, internally you have the shops, Eurostar passengers and then the bottleneck of the Underground ticket office, all those working in Grays Inn Road and its environs have no option but to suffer this every morning and evening or use Farringdon and walk all that distance, such a lot of thought must have gone into the customer relations discussions before the station rebuild/facelift/whatever

Happy days

For going between St Pancras and the Grays Inn Road area I usually go via the top level past the two statues and use the big arch next to the Betjeman Arms. Or there is a little staircase down to the tube just next to this arch.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Midland Road referred to in the previous post is on the west of St Pancras. Although last time I tried, it seemed to be largely dodging the hotel deliveries and the taxis. To my mind St Pancras badly needs an exit from the upper level in the SW corner where the hotel is - I haven't tried shortcutting through the foyer!

When I used to commute into St.P in the 1990s, I used to exit the station via the taxi ramp behind the ticket hall. What became of that?

 

[edwin_m]

When I used to commute into St.P in the 1990s, I used to exit the station via the taxi ramp behind the ticket hall. What became of that?

It's now the posh lounge in the hotel.

 

[asylumxl]

For going between St Pancras and the Grays Inn Road area I usually go via the top level past the two statues and use the big arch next to the Betjeman Arms. Or there is a little staircase down to the tube just next to this arch.

This is the way I transfer from the SSLs to EMT. It's signed as "The Grand Terrace" but I prefer calling it the Barlow Shed.

It's much easier than the sign posted route for sure.

 

[cavie78]

Work's underway on the new southern entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Rqz5mUJtOHc

 

[billio]

One thing which I find a pain at Leeds is the access to Platform 17.

I use this platform when I travel on the NR 'Express' service to Sheffield.
From the far end of the footbridge the steps extend quite some distance in the opposite direction along 16 before you have to double back to reach 17.

Sometimes it's the difference between catching or missing your train, especially if you get caught up in the crowd waiting at the bottom of the steps on 16.

What's also annoying about platform 17 is that you can find trains for Nottingham and Knottingley on the same platform at the same time. OK they are spelled differently, but announcements can sometimes be less clear .

 

[jon0844]

What's also annoying about platform 17 is that you can find trains for Nottingham and Knottingley on the same platform at the same time. OK they are spelled differently, but announcements can sometimes be less clear .

Weren't Tunes lozenges made for this very situation?

 

[atraindriver]

Weren't Tunes lozenges made for this very situation?

Nah, they were invented so that people wanting Nottingham weren't accidentally-on-purpose sent to Doetinchem [NL] by obtuse railway staff (i.e. by people like me!)

 

[Welshman]

weren't tunes lozenges made for this very situation?

l.o.l.!

 

[Deerfold]

Weren't Tunes lozenges made for this very situation?

Now you're showing your age!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Weren't Tunes lozenges made for this very situation?

Indeed. I remember having a heavy cold and asking for a return to Norwich only to finish up several hours later in Dorridge.

 

[aylesbury]

Leeds cant be that bad as a great deal of money was spent on the whole station form rail level upwards.Last I was there thought it a reasonable place to catch a train , oh by the way the twin arrow sign is still the official markings for stations.

 

[Waverley125]

As has been said previously, the work done between 1999 and 2002 was to upgrade the capacity of the station in terms of train throughput. Unfortunately no thought was given to the there being more people on those trains, something that has now happened. As a result of passenger growth Leeds City is now nearly full its train movement capacity and definitely above its designed passenger capacity.

The issues are largely three - Train Capacity, Passenger Flows & Aesthetics.

I should stay from the start that I like the design, the only thing I'd change would be replacement of some of the panels on the bridge section over Neville Street to glass in order to get some more light into the trainshed. The existing gangways should allow a good clean - they managed over at platform 1 & 2 without disrupting services at all.

In terms of train capacity there's a need for additional capacity from both East & West, which is the prompt for building LEP. One solution would be to open two new western terminators to the north of the current P1, with access from a new set of gates in the North concourse where the current 1st class lounge is. This could also have good aesthetic effects for the concourse, as the final section of the old 1930s hall is still obscured by a low ceiling. It could easily be opened up & a new entrance to the platforms created.

In terms of passenger flow a new expanded footbridge at the eastern end (a mirror image of the current west footbridge), and southeastern entrance leading onto Sovereign Square would reduce the pressure through New Station Street and the Neville Street staircase.

Removing the existing South Concourse roof & including a mezzanine would increase the retail space while allowing direct access to the new eastern footbridge. A small extension to the west footbridge could also allow access to the mezzanine, allowing grade-separation of platform access and egress from the south concourse.

Lastly the concourse could be expanded by pedestrianising & arcading New Station Street, creating a much more pleasant concourse as well as entrances far more visible in Leeds City Centre and removing the current diesel-fume-filled walk along a narrow pavement into the city centre.