Lack of ticket on departure on Merseyrail

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed they're not, but Heathrow Connect are and HEx accept tickets that are issued through to/from Heathrow Airport on their services.

So do LU, and Metrolink, and so on, neither of which are TOCs.

But Merseyrail are the same as HEx in that they cannot be compelled to issue ToD.

Which is in my view a gap in the franchise agreements.

LO/TfL Rail can issue ToD. But then there are issues at some stations managed by London Underground, e.g. Amersham.

True.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The TSA says Merseyrail stations can issue reservations, and so they should be able to sell advance tickets.

I do not believe they can sell Advance tickets on the day of travel, so two visits would have to be made to the local station, firstly to book and then to travel.

There's another solution of sorts. You establish the price from <local station> to <distant station>. When it comes to issuing tickets, the cost of <local station> to Lime Street is deducted and the ticket issued Lime Street to <distant station>. The instruction is that you need to pay separately for <local station> to Lime Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or a refund could be given on application for the single ticket purchased.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I do not believe they can sell Advance tickets on the day of travel

No they can't, because you can only get those online and Merseyrail don't do ToD collections.

So do LU, and Metrolink, and so on, neither of which are TOCs.

They're slightly different as they are sold as add-ons, not as through tickets. It's the same with the Tyne and Wear Metro.

Some London Underground stations with National Rail services do not allow ToD, and they don't even retail the full range of tickets, unlike Merseyrail.

There are two solutions: compel Merseyrail to issue ToD, or invest in separate machines at key stations like Southport, Bootle New Strand, Birkenhead Central, etc. Both will cost money. Is there an incentive? There isn't for Merseyrail.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I have this very problem with Merseyrail and the lack of TOD facilities at its stations, including my local one Waterloo. Advance tickets and seat reservations are a big problem unless you can plan well ahead. I'm often forced to buy walkup fares from Waterloo on the day of travel and fight for a seat on long distance connecting services at Lime Street. Either that or buy an unnecessary extra ticket from Waterloo to Liverpool. If they offered TOD then I could book seat reservations and possibly a through Advance ticket the night before I travelled.

I wrote to Merseyrail and this was the unsatisfactory response that I got:

Thank you for taking the time to contact Merseyrail. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying.

I am sorry to advise we do not currently provide any of the ticket machines which allow customers to print off pre-booked tickets at your local station. I am sorry for any upset this has caused.

The only option for this are Liverpool Lime Street Mainline station and a machine operated by Northern rail at Liverpool South Parkway.

Customers with any pre booked tickets would still require a ticket to cover their journey on our network. I can confirm customers are able to purchase advance tickets beyond our network at any Merseyrail staffed station.

There are currently no plans to offer this service on our network and it is likely that the new smart tickets such as Merseytravel's Walrus card will supersede this technology.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your feedback, please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Yet it's said upthread that LO/TfL Rail do ToD.

Just to confirm that LO definitely do offer TOD.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why do people still think that a station is the best place to fulfil a ticket?

Why not a corner shop, or the petrol station, or your phone, etc etc?

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
There are two solutions: compel Merseyrail to issue ToD, or invest in separate machines at key stations like Southport, Bootle New Strand, Birkenhead Central, etc. Both will cost money. Is there an incentive? There isn't for Merseyrail.

Merseryrail would gain whatever the service fee is for each TOD collection.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I have this very problem with Merseyrail and the lack of TOD facilities at its stations, including my local one Waterloo. Advance tickets and seat reservations are a big problem unless you can plan well ahead.

Is there a body that can demand Merseyrail offer compensation for their lack of TOD machines and the consequent inconvenience to longer distance travellers? That might be a requirement to issue a permit to travel or free local ticket against a booking confirmation or a refund of the unnecessary additional ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Merseryrail would gain whatever the service fee is for each TOD collection.

Perhaps you should write the business case for them. I don't doubt they would be interested if there were enough transactions to outweigh the costs of purchase, installation, infrastructure provision and maintenance of such machines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They already have TVMs at selected stations.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Merseyrail's ticket offices are manned throughout the day so new TVMs would not be necessary, providing that whatever machines are used in the ticket offices could be enabled to offer TOD. Does anyone know what software they use and whether it is capable of doing TOD?

Merseyrail's ticket office staff should be pushing to offer this kind of service otherwise, after the guards dispute is sorted out, they will be the next in line. The spiel will go something like "We need to invest in new ticket machines and barriers at all our stations. These machines will offer exciting new features like Walrus card top-ups and collection of tickets bought online. In order to pay for the machines we have to reduce costs and will be closing all of our ticket offices. Don't worry, all our stations will still be manned throughout the day with Customer Service Representatives available to help you work the ticket machines, assist you boarding trains, sell you pop and crisps at our MtoGo outlets, etc...."

 

[M28361M]

Does anyone know what software they use and whether it is capable of doing TOD?

I believe Merseyrail use Fujitsu STAR.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Why do people still think that a station is the best place to fulfil a ticket?

Apart from the limited experiments with M-tickets and buying on train from the conductor, they are the ONLY places where you can collect a ticket. In London, you can top up Oyster cards at local shops, but there's little sign of anyone rolling out ticket issuing machines in more general outlets. Do some university student unions have them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from the limited experiments with M-tickets and buying on train from the conductor, they are the ONLY places where you can collect a ticket. In London, you can top up Oyster cards at local shops, but there's little sign of anyone rolling out ticket issuing machines in more general outlets. Do some university student unions have them?

There's one in my employer's office for collection of tickets booked via their corporate system (but can be used for any). I don't think this is unheard of in other large businesses.

But the long term solution is other delivery mechanisms and ideally true e-ticketing i.e. no need to collect anything, just show a barcode on any device or bit of paper you like. (This would have the downside of requiring names on tickets, but I think people can cope with that and it removes completely the issue of transfer and resale).

 

[Joe Paxton]

Apart from the limited experiments with M-tickets and buying on train from the conductor, they are the ONLY places where you can collect a ticket. In London, you can top up Oyster cards at local shops, but there's little sign of anyone rolling out ticket issuing machines in more general outlets. Do some university student unions have them?

A few workplaces have (or have had) a TOD collection machine - here's an old photo of a Trainline Business branded machine that has crashed (a Trainline crash?).

 

[sheff1]

Why do people still think that a station is the best place to fulfil a ticket?

Why not a corner shop, or the petrol station, or your phone, etc etc?

I would love to be able to buy a rail ticket at my corner shop (as long as the full range was available of course ). Unlike at certain booking offices, I am 100% confident that the staff there, with whom I regularly chat, would be most willing to listen when I explained what I wanted and, if they had trouble locating the ticket, would welcome assistance in finding it. They would also not make up their own rules as to why I could not have the ticket I wanted.

For what it is worth you can already get tickets at some shops on Merseyside - they are called Mtogo

 

[MarlowDonkey]

A few workplaces have (or have had) a TOD collection machine

So the technology exists. Why are TOCs in general and Merseyrail in particular not talking to supermarket chains about installing a few in areas without machines at stations?

 

[Tetchytyke]

they are the ONLY places where you can collect a ticket.

I have no idea if they are still there or not, but London Midland installed a TVM on campus at Birmingham University and EMT installed them on campus at places like Loughborough University and Sheffield University.

 

[edwin_m]

I have no idea if they are still there or not, but London Midland installed a TVM on campus at Birmingham University and EMT installed them on campus at places like Loughborough University and Sheffield University.

There's one at Luton Airport too, or at least there was a few months ago.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Be careful what you wish for with TVMs. The poor areas of Merseyside are rife with exploitative fee-charging ATMs and some corporate git could see new TVMs as a nice little earner too. I can imagine "Merseyrail have teamed up with TheTrainline.com to install new ticket machines at some of our busiest stations. These machines will sell tickets for travel on Merseyrail, Walrus card top-ups, and collection of tickets bought online from TheTrainline.com *booking fees may apply."

I would much prefer it if the existing ticket offices could print out TOD tickets for passengers.

 

[gray1404]

I think we have to be very realistic on what can and cannot be done here. It is a question of having to balance cost with customer service.

I see the following as viable: -
1. Merseyrail enables TOD from their existing [staffed] stations which also have a TVM, or
2. Merseyrail enables TOD from their booking offices (either all of them or indeed those at stations with high levels of passenger use).

This way they will be able to use the existing machines and TIS they have installed already at their booking offices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Be careful what you wish for with TVMs. The poor areas of Merseyside are rife with exploitative fee-charging ATMs and some corporate git could see new TVMs as a nice little earner too. I can imagine "Merseyrail have teamed up with TheTrainline.com to install new ticket machines at some of our busiest stations. These machines will sell tickets for travel on Merseyrail, Walrus card top-ups, and collection of tickets bought online from TheTrainline.com *booking fees may apply."

There are no fee-charging TVMs on the network, so I don't see that fear.

As for cash machines, there are plenty of free ones, charging ones tend to appear in places where there were previously none.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The issue I can see with TOD collection form Merseyrail booking offices is at the one window locations where you have train frequencies of 4 or 6 tph's you need the machine free to issue tickets to customers intended to travel there and then not cause a queue with someone flangeing about with a mobile phone in their hand or reading something that's been transposed incorrectly onto a napkin or complaining that they've already paid for the ticket when you ask for the card to be inserted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue I can see with TOD collection form Merseyrail booking offices is at the one window locations where you have train frequencies of 4 or 6 tph's you need the machine free to issue tickets to customers intended to travel there and then not cause a queue with someone flangeing about with a mobile phone in their hand or reading something that's been transposed incorrectly onto a napkin or complaining that they've already paid for the ticket when you ask for the card to be inserted.

There are plenty of stations in the South East with one window[1] and one TVM, such as Bletchley. We seem to cope.

[1] There are actually two but the second one is almost never open.

 

[gray1404]

I do not believe it will take any longer to issue a TOD then a usual ticket from a booking office window if the booking office know what they are doing and the reference number is available. I recently had a TOD printed by a booking office at a GTR station and it took less then 10 seconds from me giving them the number, entered it into the system and the tickets popped straight out.

This is the beauty is keeping it to stations that also have a TVM is that the TVM can do it or if from the booking office window, then there is also the TVM to sell tickets to keep the que down. Also, worth noting though that many other booking offices with one window cope offering TOD and all of the Merseyrail booking office sell Advance tickets, this will take much longer to issue then a TOD. Even doing a walk up to a destination off their network where there is a destination off their network would take longer to issue then a simple TOD. And remember, it would be quicker still if they allowed their TVMs to issue TOD.

 

[Starmill]

Who will do this persuading? And more to the point, who will pay? The cost of purchasing, installing and maintaining a TVM runs into tens of thousands of pounds even if the TOC has the relevant infrastructure in place to start with. I would be surprised if the TOCs you have mentioned have that infrastructure at the stations suggested, and there could be huge costs in providing it.
A far easier solution, for both Merseyrail and the majority of customers, might be for the TOC to accept barcoded tickets (e-tickets, m-tickets and self print) for journeys that go beyond their own domain. This would be relatively low cost in infrastructure and equipment terms. However, Merseyrail are quite firm in their approach - they do what is necessary and required of them and have little interest in what might be called optional extras.

Look, it was just an idea based on what's already happening. I don't have all of the figures and I'm not an expert, but I thought about how the problem might be solved. ATW have apparently spent this money many times over given the number of new TVMs they've installed in recent years, some of which are in the middle of nowhere. GTR have made ToD available at Ashurst (Kent), Pevensey Bay and Doleham, wayside halts in rural areas with single digit numbers of passengers per day. Northern have spent it to offer a solution at Liverpool South Parkway. It's the TOCs who came up with the notion of ToD, not me. And your idea of Merseyrail accepting m-tickets seems even less likely, because there's absolutely no evidence on the ground that they would ever be willing to do that. TfL Rail and London Overground don't do that. But funnily enough they do offer ToD. How have they got around the cost barrier you describe?

Perhaps nothing will change. Perhaps, within reason, nothing can. But you shouldn't just argue that nothing should change because the current situation is just as it is and is good enough, even when it obviously falls a long way short of what customers expect.

 

[Starmill]

I have no idea if they are still there or not, but London Midland installed a TVM on campus at Birmingham University and EMT installed them on campus at places like Loughborough University and Sheffield University.

I think ToD is available at Edinburgh Airport too, and the University of Nottingham. It's definitely available at the University of Leeds even though EMT scarcely serve Leeds.

 

[rs101]

There are plenty of stations in the South East with one window[1] and one TVM, such as Bletchley. We seem to cope.

[1] There are actually two but the second one is almost never open.

Same here at Manningtree - one TVM and one window. That has to close from time to time so the one staff member can assist with train departures.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Going back to the original question, I am not convinced that - outwith this forum - the difficulty of picking up tickets is seen as a problem by the people of Merseyside who (let's face it) aren't backward at complaining if they feel they are missing out.

But if there really is an issue to address, then the thing to do is to get the Liverpool Echo onside. http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/send-a-story/