Lancaster to Stoke

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Sammy h, 17 Nov 2011.

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  1. Sammy h

    Sammy h Member

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    Can anyone help me get the cheapest fare for the above.

    No railcards etc. Leaving later tonight and returning tomorrow.

    Thanks
    Sammy
     
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  3. sonic2009

    sonic2009 Established Member

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    Lancaster - Stoke-On-Trent Anytime Return Any Permitted £69.00
    valid via Manchester/Crewe
    Lancaster - Stoke-On-Trent Off Peak Return Any Permitted £39.20
    valid via Manchester/Crewe

    have given you both prices as you don't specify what time you are returning tommorow morning.

    going via Manchester will save you money :

    Lancaster - Manchester Piccadilly £20.30 Anytime Return Any Permitted
    Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke-On-Trent £11.00 Anytime Return Virgin Trains Only

    Lancaster - Manchester Piccadilly £16.50 Off Peak Return Any Permitted
    Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke-On-Trent £11.00 Anytime Return Virgin Trains Only
     
  4. neilmc

    neilmc Member

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    Sorry if this is obvious, but given that the OP might be buying his ticket at Lancaster station, will he be able to purchase both tickets there when he is obviously split-ticketing, or will he have to rebook in Manchester?

    When I've split-ticketed I've always booked online, or (e.g. Manchester-Bimingham) booked Stoke-Birmingham online and bought the Manchester-Stoke part at the station.
     
  5. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    You can buy both at the ticket office, but not from a TVM (ticket machine). It may also be possible to buy the first ticket at Lancaster, and then get the second whilst on board the first train
     
  6. calc7

    calc7 Established Member

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    Any ticket office clerk who does not wish to break the rules on impartial retailing is obliged to sell both tickets without question. I have done this many times and they are often impressed with the research.
     
  7. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    This is correct. They do not have to offer it, however when requested must sell the specific combination.
     
  8. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    Remembering of course that this ticket is only valid on Virgin Trains, which restricts you to two trains per hour (at x:15 and x:35 from Manchester, x:25 and x:48 from Stoke) out of the four possible fast services. And going south there are only three trains available to you after 7pm, at 19:15, 20:15 and 21:15 from Piccadilly.

    If you'll be later than that you need the £14 Off-Peak Return (route Any Permitted) which covers the later Cross Country services. But isn't valid until the 09:48 from Stoke the next day, so if you're coming back earlier than that you'd need two singles Manchester to Stoke and back (£12.80 south for the any permitted Anytime Day Single, £9 north for the VT only one) for a total of £38.30, which is only a modest saving over the through Off-Peak Return which would allow you to come back by the faster route via Crewe...
     
  9. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    The Lancaster - Manchester offpeak return has no tiume restrictions on the return portion..

    It is also valid via Crewe ( and a break of journey is allowed, unlike a Manchester - Lancaster off peak return!)

    So a Lancaster - Manchester off peak return from Lancaster - Crewe £16-50 and 2 x Crewe to Stoke off peak single 2x£5-80

    Total £28-10
     
  10. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    What's the betting this route disappears in the next revision of the RG...
     
  11. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    I doubt it - it has mentioned on here for at least 12 months and has not yet been removed - it is priced by TPE why should they be worried about fare extraction from Virgin tickets between Lancaster and Crewe?
     
  12. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree TPE wouldn't be bothered, but ATOC would say to the DafT "This is is an error, it's not a material change, we do not need to consult with you, we are removing this route form the Routeing Guide and that's that" and the DafT will say "Yes, of course, go ahead!" :|
     
  13. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    Precisely. It's a clear mistake and I'm sure a quick phone call from Virgin to ATOC will have the Routeing Guide "amended." :roll: The last revision was in April 2011 so I shall wait and see. ;)

    There is a fine line to be drawn between obvious mistakes (Lancaster to Manchester being one) and routes where the longer winded route is reasonable because the journey time is similar (e.g. Chester to Birmingham via Shrewsbury or Crewe). The TOC's can get around the latter one by introducing a new ticket restriction (regarding Chester to Birmingham, LM took control of the "Any Permitted" ticket - and hiked the price up (:roll:) - and ATW introduced a "Route Shrewsbury" ticket), but this doesn't happy very often because I believe it costs the TOC's quite a lot of money.

    I would strongly advise against recommending the Lancaster to Manchester ticket via Crewe, as in the 50/50 chance of a ticket inspection, there is a strong likelihood that the Train Manager won't accept it.
     
  14. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    I had a look as this and I don't think that's exactly correct to say; it doesn't really tell the whole story. It looks to me like they have been very careful to stay within the bounds of fares regulation here.

    Yes there is now no ANY PERMITTED CDR. I'm sure that's a big loss to lots of people, but it's not a regulated fare. The two regulated fares are the SVR and 7DS (weekly season).

    The ANY PERMITTED SVR has actually decreased in price and is now only £29. Even back in NFM05 it was already £31.70. Granted it used to be an 8A restriction and now it's a CS, but for travel (via either route) after 9am or on a weekend and coming back a different day it's actually cheaper than before, and break of journey is now allowed on the outward portion.

    The ANY PERMITTED 7DS has increased slightly, but stayed within the boundaries allowed by fares regulation.

    The two big losses are that the CDR is now only valid via Shewsbury, and for occasional early morning journeys via Crewe you would need to get an SOR, which I agree is hiked up a bit (at £45) from the old 8A SVR. But if you were a regular traveller you could get a season, which is a regulated fare and thus unaffected by the hike.
     
  15. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    They might not want to accept it, but it is perfectly valid according to the Routeing Guide so they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
     
  16. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    Why is it clearly a mistake. It has been valid since Lancaster became a routeing point in 2005; Virgin themselves issue Advance tickets for the route.

     
  17. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    Try telling that to the guard! :roll:
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Lancaster to Manchester direct takes 1h. Lancaster to Manchester via Crewe takes almost 2h. No one would call that a "reasonable route."

    I am bewildered by the existence of VT Advance fares, which is a good argument against this particular route being a "mistake," but do remember that Virgin are free to remove Advance fares at any time!
     
    Last edited: 18 Nov 2011
  18. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    But what relevence does the total time taken have?
    Tickets are available from Shrewsbury - London via Warwinster & Salisbury - that takes a lot lot longer than travelling via Birmingham or Crewe.

    York to Sheffield is valid via York, ATOC removed this route in 2009, but it was reinstated after intervention by Passenger Focus, going on your basis of time taken it would not have been reinstated.
     
  19. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    The TOC's do not care about the total journey time - they care about fare abstraction.

    Lancaster to Manchester direct is just under 50 miles. Lancaster to Manchester via Crewe is just under 100 miles, and involves travelling on a normally expensive section of track between Lancaster and Crewe.

    All the TOC's have to do is introduce a "Route Bolton" fare, and do what Indigo2 explained to the "Any Permitted" fare. This would reduce fare abstraction, whilst still allowing people to travel via Crewe.

    It is best for such obvious "anomalies" (and this one is an anomaly) to not be mentioned on a public forum, as the TOC's and ATOC read this forum. Even tickets that are not really "anomalies" (e.g. Chester to Birmingham via Crewe - which is the fastest, most obvious and most reasonable route!) have been meddled with by the TOC's because of fare abstraction.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your second point. York to Sheffield is of course valid via York, otherwise the journey would be impossible?
     
    Last edited: 18 Nov 2011
  20. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    ???
    Did you mean via Leeds? Or via Doncaster perhaps?

    Another Yorkshire annoyance is the recently introduced negative easement preventing Leeds to Rotherham via Meadowhall. Maybe I should complain and try to get that reversed too?
     
  21. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think he meant York to Sheffield via Huddersfield.
     
  22. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    That routes seems fair enough to me, and it does not cause any significant fare abstraction. Unlike Lancaster to Manchester via Crewe! :lol:
     
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Yes, he meant York to Sheffield via Huddersfield. ATOC are supposed to consult with the DfT when they make changes, however this was investigated and the DfT were not consulted, therefore the legal process was not being carried out correctly (am I surprised? Err, nope.)

    The time is irrelevant, and a customer may want to visit more than one place! Car drivers are not expected to, nor constrained to, travelling from A to B via a very direct route and then have to come back the way they came! It is perfectly reasonable to expect people to drive to more than one place between leaving home and coming back, so why is there not such an expectation that passengers who travel by rail may wish to do this?

    Sorry ALR, I do not follow your logic. However I do agree with you that it is an example of a routeing that I could see ATOC changing, and using the excuse to the DfT that it is an "anomaly" and "mistake" so they do not need a consultation to remove it. If it does get removed, I suggest you take the matter up with your MP, and investigate whether it was done using the correct legal processes, as ATOC/DfT do seem to slip up quite often with this sort of thing.
     
  24. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    The logic is this:
    • Chester to Birmingham via Crewe - logical
    • Chester to Birmingham via Shrewsbury - logical
    • Chester to Shrewsbury via Crewe - logical
    • Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham - logical
    • Stoke to Birmingham direct - logical
    • Stoke to Birmingham via Crewe - logical
    • York to Sheffield direct - logical
    • York to Sheffield via Huddersfield - logical
    • Crewe to Liverpool via Runcorn - logical
    • Crewe to Liverpool via Warrington - slightly logical
    • Lancaster to Manchester direct - logical
    • Lancaster to Manchester via Warrington - slightly logical
    • Lancaster to Manchester via Crewe - not logical at all!

    It is not just the time that must be taken into account, but the distance travelled and the cost of the route taken.

    Going by your logic of "I'm free to take whatever route I like," a Manchester to London ticket could be valid via York, a Manchester to Carlisle ticket could be valid via Newcastle, a Peterborough to London ticket could be valid via Nuneaton, etc, etc... But none of these routes are valid because they would caused severe fare abstraction.

    The train is different to the car. When travelling via car, you pay more in petrol if you take a longer, long-winded route. But when travelling by train, you pay exactly the same price whether taking a direct train or a much longer, long-winded route!

    The routes listed above are all reasonable for any of the following reasons:
    • The time taken is similar for both routes
    • The distance is similar for both routes
    • One route is quicker than the other at certain times of the day, and vice versa
    • One route has an extremely infrequent service

    I don't think Lancaster to Manchester via Crewe fits any of those criteria. I am unable to explain why VT Advance tickets exist. And although I have plenty more examples that do fit at least one of the critera above, I am not going to mention them on a public forum. ;)
     
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