Large white elephant spotted near Wigan

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's at 2 Piccadilly (And TfGM) now...

Dont get TfGM and TfGMC mixed up in your deliberations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Iit's between Walkden and the Crescent (and even more so on the A6 into Manchester now it's ruined!) ....You could add bus lanes if you wanted, but like I said before, this would mean stealing a lane and making traffic worse, there are a lot of bridges and sections that cannot be widened.

I am still trying to understand the logic of narrowing the roadway in the final section past Salford Cathedral. What exactly was the reason for this and where will the peak period traffic flows that used to use this section be sent?

 

[snail]

I am still trying to understand the logic of narrowing the roadway in the final section past Salford Cathedral. What exactly was the reason for this and where will the peak period traffic flows that used to use this section be sent?

http://www.salford.gov.uk/chapelstreetredevelopment.htm

It's an attempt to regenerate the area between the University and the boundary with Manchester by making it 'pedestrian friendly'. Or something.

Traffic is intended to use Liverpool Street or Regent Road instead. Drivers being creatures of habit, turning off the A6 on to Albion Way near Salford Crescent station will take some time to get used to.

 

[Bevan Price]

http://www.salford.gov.uk/chapelstreetredevelopment.htm

It's an attempt to regenerate the area between the University and the boundary with Manchester by making it 'pedestrian friendly'. Or something.

Traffic is intended to use Liverpool Street or Regent Road instead. Drivers being creatures of habit, turning off the A6 on to Albion Way near Salford Crescent station will take some time to get used to.

In other words, they will move the traffic jam from Crescent to somewhere else. Just like many other traffic mismanagement schemes, they funnel more & more traffic through fewer key junctions. Similar thing happening in Liverpool - widening the Edge Lane approach to the city centre from the M62 will simply move the traffic jam closer to the city centre.

 

[WatcherZero]

The aim is to create a pedestrian freindly street that may form the nucleas of a Salford high street which at the moment does not exist anywhere in the Borough.

 

[snail]

In other words, they will move the traffic jam from Crescent to somewhere else. Just like many other traffic mismanagement schemes, they funnel more & more traffic through fewer key junctions. Similar thing happening in Liverpool - widening the Edge Lane approach to the city centre from the M62 will simply move the traffic jam closer to the city centre.

Very true, but trying to give Salford a "centre" that links into central Manchester growth and uses the river as a focus isn't a bad thing in itself. The medieval centre is around the old Trinity Church and the original town hall was built near to the RC cathedral. Cities aren't just for building roads through.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Very true, but trying to give Salford a "centre" that links into central Manchester growth and uses the river as a focus isn't a bad thing in itself. The medieval centre is around the old Trinity Church and the original town hall was built near to the RC cathedral. Cities aren't just for building roads through.

Will the eventual aim be to re-route all the bus services away from this particular road section?

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the buses will stay (actually increasing) and they will try and distribute the car users to alternative routes.

 

[Nym]

They have, the've given two lanes to get onto the A5063 down toward Liverpool Road and Regent Road, like they didn't need more traffic on them...!
There isn't anywhere else for traffic to go...

 

[snail]

I think the buses will stay (actually increasing) and they will try and distribute the car users to alternative routes.

One of the purposes of the exercise was to have bus lanes all the way along the A6 corridor, something that will [getting back on topic!] help the Leigh buses amongst others.

 

[Nym]

And completely cock up the A580 for all other traffic...

 

[radamfi]

Having continuous, proper width bus lanes along the A6 and A580 should make bus journey times very reliable. I presume this will be tied into the cross-city bus scheme enabling frequent, reliable buses to run through the city centre and down towards the university.

Mass car usage in a conurbation of 2+ million people (particularly in its inner city) doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Nym]

The problem comes when you realise that not everyone is travelling to the city, Manchester may have a lot of offices now but there is still a rather large backbone (even if it is broken) of industry in Trafford Park, and dotted around the inner and outer city areas...

 

[radamfi]

It is possible to build a high quality, public transport network that serves suburbs as well as city centres. It is just Anglo-Saxon opinion that says otherwise.

 

[Nym]

I'd like to see it...

Is there a system that could do my previous commute from Bolton to CP5, Trafford Park?

Choices by public transport...

Local Bus to Bolton (20m), 22/68 to Trafford Centre (1hr10), 250 to Trafford Circle, Walk 10mins
Local Bus to Bolton (20m) Train to Oxford Road, 250 to Trafford Circle
etc etc..
All well and good for getting there in the morning, now, I finished at 10:15 pm, find me a bus route that is frequent and still runs...
The last 22 and 68 have left, theres a bus laid on by the company to Picc Gardens via Chorlton, by the time that gets in I've missed the 1046 to Bolton off Piccadilly and might be able to leg it for the 1123 off Victoria, but it's a push to do it, the 1123 gets into Bolton at 1145 by this time the last local bus for me to get home (that is a 7min frequency and served by 3 operators during the day) had it's last bus at 1030 because GMPTE pulled funding for late buses, so now I need to get a taxi home, and I'd be home at Midnight... Even if I could have gotten the 1046 off piccadilly by some magic of running for the 250 and finishing 10mins early (that never happened!) I'd still not be in Bolton before the last bus that used to be at 1132 but got pulled, (was handy when I was working late shifts at the airport) so either way, I'm not home until midnight, journey takes about 90mins, I can drive to CP5 in 18mins on a clear run, 90mins in the world's worse traffic on the M60, ususally 30mins in and 20mins out, I could proberbly cycle home faster than public transport.

And that isn't that much of an extreme example, theres many more where if you work outside of the normal 8am - 6pm period it can become near impossible to make an easy journey on public transport in Greater Manchester, and no matter what cross manchester transport links get put in place, it won't run 24hr, and it won't run to employment centres outside of the OR corridor, and Manchester CC from plans I've seen, it might reach the office complexes in Didsbury if we're lucky!

 

[tbtc]

I finished at 10:15 pm, find me a bus route that is frequent and still runs...

And that isn't that much of an extreme example

A radial journey at that time of night isn't "typical" though, is it?

Of course there are people needing transport at all hours of the day, but criticising public transport for not providing a service like that at that time does seem a little extreme...

 

[radamfi]

I'd like to see it...

Try Zürich.

Go to

http://www.zvv.ch/de/linien-und-zonen/stadt-zuerich.html

You can see there is a comprehensive network of frequent tram and trolleybus lines. Not just radial, but orbital too. Due the high frequencies, interchange is not an issue. So any journey can be made.

PT modal share in Zürich is 63%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share

 

[Nym]

Not really, but it does prove a point, some people both in goverment and on this forum don't want anyone to travel to work by car and think that public transport is better in all circumstances, and it clearly isn't, there were 1,400 staff working the same shift as me at this company, under than instruction and sponsership of the DWP and the AGMA.

And you'd be supprised about the change in journey patterns from centric to radial at diffenent shift patterns, my experience is generally that most journies are centric for office workers and radial for shift workers and industry workers.

And I'll edit that:

I'd like to see it in THIS country outside Greater London...

 

[tbtc]

Not really, but it does prove a point, some people both in goverment and on this forum don't want anyone to travel to work by car and think that public transport is better in all circumstances, and it clearly isn't

...but then some people on this forum think that heavy rail is better than buses in all circumstances, and it clearly isn't...

For the kind of flexible demand you are talking about, a rail link wouldn't be suitable.

 

[radamfi]

I'd like to see it in THIS country outside Greater London...

Who cares what country is it in! That is the problem with the Anglo-Saxon world. We are only interested in the solution if we can think of it in this country, or at worst, in another English speaking country.

Switzerland shows it can be done, even in a relatively small city such as Zurich. That is a very rich country where anyone who wants a car can afford one. So it should be easier in a country (i.e. the UK) where there are still some people who can't afford cars and which has lots of big cities.

 

[Nym]

No it wouldn't, but a section of Metrolink and later running bus services would be a reasonably viable option, is supprising me that they aren't considering any Metrolink services on busy radial flows, where inferstructure does exist already (and could be abused with little extra work) such as...

Bolton - Bury - Rochdale
Ashton U Lyne - Oldham

I suppose you could count Stockport - E Dids - Chorlton - Deansgate - Picc as kind of circular route, but there is a rather large flow of traffic between the Bolton area and Trafford Park area, and there is also a choice of old trackbeds one could use, perhaps the most prominant being through Walkden, also serving Royal Bolton Hosp, and down to Eccles, then onward to Trafford Park (or avoiding Eccles and traveling via Port Salford, shortly to become a major employment centre, that will no dowbt be employing staff from the areas local, such as Walkden, Eccles and Urmston... )

Or local stops on services between Stockport and Alty in Wythenshawe and Cheadle Heath...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Switzerland shows it can be done, even in a relatively small city such as Zurich. That is a very rich country where anyone who wants a car can afford one. So it should be easier in a country (i.e. the UK) where there are still some people who can't afford cars and which has lots of big cities.

All well and good until yet again, public transport is MORE expensive than car ownership for the TTW journies, especially if you include leisure and utlility travel...

(For most people over 25 who can get cheaper insurance, if insurance wasn't a killer it would have been cheaper for me to commute to Manchester Airport by car than by bus + train)

County Card: £95/month
Fuel: 25mi RT/day, I did 60mpg, so in a 4.3wk month that works out at about 40ltr of fuel per month, comes in at about £52, insurance and maintenance can easilly come in under £43/month...

That doesn't take into account that travelling by car was 3 times faster, and allowed greater flexibility so I could get offered and accept a lot more overtime, increasing my wage by about £200 - £300/month..

Commuting to Trafford Park as the other example, 1hr30mins by buses, (To the trafford centre, not trafford park!) can be done on a First Month (£55) but that doesn't cover all buses, and the fuel costs would be halfed as it's half the distance...

 

[radamfi]

All well and good until yet again, public transport is MORE expensive than car ownership for the TTW journies, especially if you include leisure and utlility travel...

Price is irrelevant in Switzerland. PT in Switzerland isn't that cheap, and petrol is comparable to the UK, but PT is used because it is good and reliable.

 

[WatcherZero]

There was a GMPTE/TFGM program in the works behind the scenes to create a orbital bus route network, directly connecting the towns outside the city centre to each other but they had to cancel it with the spending cuts and massive axing of bus subsidy from central Government. There is demand for the orbital routes but they wouldnt survive without subsidy, at least initially. Its still a low key planning aim should money become available.

Like the Cross City bus routes it would have created bus corridors with improved infrastructure, regular frequencies and cross-operator route branding, fare integration and public information.

 

[snail]

A radial journey at that time of night isn't "typical" though, is it?

Of course there are people needing transport at all hours of the day, but criticising public transport for not providing a service like that at that time does seem a little extreme...

As does complaining about bus lanes causing congestion. The East Lancs Road is usually quiet around 10pm.

 

[Nym]

Aye, but the M60 isn't...

And I would rarely be using the ELR on a radial journey from the M61, thats usually only when I'm making an axial journey in the marginal hours where it only just moves, taking a lane away would screw that...

 

[radamfi]

Aye, but the M60 isn't...

Are you saying that the M60 is normally congested at 10pm to the point of queueing? Without roadworks or accidents?

Even the M25 is pretty empty after 9pm.

 

[Nym]

No, but it is far from empty... I've been on the M60 at 2am, frequently, and it still has a fair amount of vehicles on it between Cheadle Heath and Worsley...

More than the M62 between Goole and Newport at 6pm on a Friday...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Who cares what country is it in! That is the problem with the Anglo-Saxon world. We are only interested in the solution if we can think of it in this country, or at worst, in another English speaking country....Switzerland shows it can be done, even in a relatively small city such as Zurich. That is a very rich country where anyone who wants a car can afford one. So it should be easier in a country (i.e. the UK) where there are still some people who can't afford cars and which has lots of big cities.

The problem that I have seen, even in our local village of Prestbury (which fortunately has a rail station and a bus service to Macclesfield), is that some people have been made redundant and have been unable to find another job for nearly two years (not through any lack of trying, may I add) and find they now cannot afford to run a car with insurance and running costs, as their main priority is keeping their homes, after such a period of time. I cannot see any light at the end of this particular tunnel for the foreseeable future.

I am glad that both my wife and I are in retirement and not subject to these pressures.

 

[Nym]

Not to sound horrible or anything here Paul, but from Prestbury it is easy enough to commute to Manchester and Manchester Airport (Even by public transport) and over the last two years of being in and out of work, I've had quite a few difficulties in finding work in the GM area, but there have been two major tempory employments made last year for a major project with a lof of the support being on a direct bus route to Macclesfeild (BSS Ltd. you need to use google to find out what it was for), all I am wondering here before going way too far off topic is if some unemployed are refusing work because it is below them? (Especially being from a posher part of the UK).

PS: If it's for two years then that covers two major recruitment cycles at Manchester Aiport (April - May every year), and four major recruitment cycles at the Trafford Centre (May and October), and the major projects I just mentioned.

PPS: When I was looking for work I was looking in pretty much the whole GMTTW area, as far north as Preston and south as Manchester Airport / Stockport, since thats what the job centre says, 90mins by public transport from home, that covers 17 job centres thanks to being 20mins from Bolton Railway Station

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There was a GMPTE/TFGM program in the works behind the scenes to create a orbital bus route network, directly connecting the towns outside the city centre to each other but they had to cancel it with the spending cuts and massive axing of bus subsidy from central Government.

The "Trans-Lancs Express" covering Bolton-Bury-Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton-Stockport came the nearest to fulfilling that particular service, as there was the Airport extension from Stockport in the summer. The service 500 at one time did cater for Altrincham to Bolton , but Wigan itself was never really part of these services and I think that that it was a service 456 run by The Coachmasters that ran a route of Wigan-Bolton-Bury-Rochdale.

 

[Bevan Price]

The "Trans-Lancs Express" covering Bolton-Bury-Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton-Stockport came the nearest to fulfilling that particular service, as there was the Airport extension from Stockport in the summer. The service 500 at one time did cater for Altrincham to Bolton , but Wigan itself was never really part of these services and I think that that it was a service 456 run by The Coachmasters that ran a route of Wigan-Bolton-Bury-Rochdale.

The lack of long-term success of the 400 Trans-Lancs Express bus needs to be contemplated by those favouring the Leigh busway project. Whilst buses serve a very useful purpose for within-town transport, the sad fact is that not many people will use buses in preference to their cars, especially for the longer inter-town services. However, given a good, fairly fast rail (or tram) service, sizeable numbers of people may be willing to leave the car at home (or at a park & ride station) and use the train.