Large white elephant spotted near Wigan

[yorksrob]

Yes but thats always been the difference between Rail and Bus transport modes, bus is door step-to-door step while rail is centre-to-centre. Many people prefer the conveniance of making the whole journey, never having to make a connection.

You could get a train then switch to the bus and maybe save 15 minutes, but if your elderly, infirm or in a wheelchair then making the hospital trip in one go becomes very attractive.

Good point well made - which is why Leigh needs its railway for the Centre to Centre travel. Of course, the bus is better for doorstep to doorstep travel, which is why it's better suited to the public highway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That would create some new through journeys for some journeys starting or finishing along the busway admittedly, but for people living in places such as Newton or Wigan, getting the bus via the busway to Manchester and beyond would still be slower than the existing train service

Leigh is within the administrative area of Wigan MBC. I cannot see why people in Wigan, with its existing rail services from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester and an extensive bus network radiating from Wigan Bus Station, wishing to travel to Manchester, would be interested in using the travel facilities afforded by this Leigh Guided Busway project.

 

[Nym]

Oh, need it also be said that if you run via Walkden, changing there will provide journies to Wigan, although it would take a while to go round that way, in rush hour it would be quicker than trying to get through Hindley.

 

[tbtc]

Leigh is within the administrative area of Wigan MBC. I cannot see why people in Wigan, with its existing rail services from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester and an extensive bus network radiating from Wigan Bus Station, wishing to travel to Manchester, would be interested in using the travel facilities afforded by this Leigh Guided Busway project.

The point I was trying to make is that a Wigan - Leigh - Guided Busway - Manchester service would link north/western Leigh to Manchester (which a train wouldn't, and the busway was being criticised for not helping either), by tagging two routes onto each other.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The point I was trying to make is that a Wigan - Leigh - Guided Busway - Manchester service would link north/western Leigh to Manchester (which a train wouldn't, and the busway was being criticised for not helping either), by tagging two routes onto each other.

The trouble is, when you mention "Wigan", you are referring to a very large geographical area that is administered by Wigan MBC, of which Leigh sits in the south-eastern segment.

To the south of Wigan and the west of Leigh, there are areas such as Golborne (to name but one) that are on the periphery of the administered area and would not be in a good position to take advantage of the Leigh Guided Busway project. This is a north/south divide, where the northern part of Wigan MBC has far better existing public transport links, than those on the south-westerly part of the area.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The trouble is, when you mention "Wigan", you are referring to a very large geographical area that is administered by Wigan MBC...

Or just referring to the town of 80,000, not the metropolitan area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or just referring to the town of 80,000, not the metropolitan area.

It is even more so, as you rightly say, when the Wigan town area is mentioned, as it already possesses two railway stations in its core area and other railway stations at Pemberton, Bryn and Ince in its periphery. (Orrell and Gathurst are too far out to be mentioned here).

 

[tbtc]

The trouble is, when you mention "Wigan", you are referring to a very large geographical area that is administered by Wigan MBC, of which Leigh sits in the south-eastern segment.

To the south of Wigan and the west of Leigh, there are areas such as Golborne (to name but one) that are on the periphery of the administered area and would not be in a good position to take advantage of the Leigh Guided Busway project. This is a north/south divide, where the northern part of Wigan MBC has far better existing public transport links, than those on the south-westerly part of the area.

I think that you are reading too much into things and complicating the argument.

The point was, simply, that a guided busway doesn't limit services to *just* the busway, they could serve other parts of Leigh (not just the town centre) and other parts of Manchester (e.g. the Hospitals).

As an example, look at the reports that Stagecoach are considering using the Cambridgeshire busway for services to/from Peterborough - the busway is merely the conduit for several potential services (that may extend beyond it at either end).

A train/tram, on the other hand, would obviously only penetrate Leigh as far as its terminus.

 

[Nym]

But if one was to put wires over the guided sections of the busway and electrify it, then trolley buses would have a much sounder enviromental case, (and can use current(ish) hybrid designs for drive systems, just drop the panto off wires.

 

[yorksrob]

A train on the other hand, would obviously only penetrate Leigh as far as its terminus.

But it would link the town in with the national railway network - and that is what the town is missing at the moment.

 

[Nym]

Anyone else thinking of demolishing 12 houses and running through via Leigh Sports Village for a Manchester P&R and then onwards to Wigan NW?

Guess who just got granted access to a LOT of old maps

 

[Bevan Price]

Quote:
The 21km bus route, a priority project for Transport for Greater Manchester, will take passengers from Leigh to Manchester city centre and the Central Manchester Hospitals site via Tyldesley, Ellenbrook and Salford, reducing journey times to less than 45 minutes.
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And what a huge improvement they are offering, when one remembers that, nearly 50 years ago, Leigh to Manchester took 31 to 32 minutes by train. Such is "progess".

The presence of housing on former railway alignments does not prevent reopening. Similar properties were removed to enable the Croydon Tramway to be built. And hundreds - probably thousands - of houses have been bulldozed when "they" want to build new road or motorway. The only problem in rebuilding a closed railway is lack of willpower & funding. Plus when "they" get the idea that busways are "good", to change their minds would need "them" to admit that their initial decision was a mistake.

So, when proper rail is eventually returned to Leigh town centre, our successors will face the additional cost of removing miles of unwanted concrete from the busway before they can lay railway track. (And, beware - never even think about buying a house on a former railway alignment....- especially on lines that history considers that it was a mistake to close.)

 

[snail]

And what a huge improvement they are offering, when one remembers that, nearly 50 years ago, Leigh to Manchester took 31 to 32 minutes by train. Such is "progess".

I don't understand why improvements have to be measured against what is not there any more. If it was so good a service back then, why didn't people use it? If they had, it would still be open today.

 

[Bevan Price]

I don't understand why improvements have to be measured against what is not there any more. If it was so good a service back then, why didn't people use it? If they had, it would still be open today.

People did use it, but not enough to satisfy the accountants. If PTE's had been in existence a few years earlier, the line would probably never have closed.

 

[Nym]

Or at least only one of the lines would have closed.

Looking at an old map, Leigh had two main railway routes through it, and I get the feeling it would have been the Atherleigh railway one that would have closed, and Eccles - Walkden S - Leigh - Wigan remaining open.

 

[Bevan Price]

Or at least only one of the lines would have closed.

Looking at an old map, Leigh had two main railway routes through it, and I get the feeling it would have been the Atherleigh railway one that would have closed, and Eccles - Walkden S - Leigh - Wigan remaining open.

More complex than that. There were:
1. Manchester - Eccles - Tyldesley - Springs Branch - Wigan
2. Tyldesley - Leigh - Kenyon Junction (for Liverpool / Warrington Bank Quay, etc.)
3. Kenyon Junction - Pennington - Westleigh - Atherleigh - Bolton Great Moor Street.
4. Some distance from the town centre, Glazebrook - Wigan Central branch.
5. Plus various connections around Pennington / Plank Lane, mainly used for freight, but in early years had a very restricted passenger service between Leigh & Wigan North Western

Leigh suffered somewhat in the pre-diesel era, as you often had to change at Tyldesley to get to Manchester (Exchange). With dieselisation, there was a mostly hourly dmu service from Liverpool & Newton Le Willows to Leigh, Tyldesley, Eccles & Manchester (Exchange). Area was still affected by mining subsidence, so trains were slower than ideal, but from what I remember, patronage increased after dieselisation.

I also wonder if the closure decision was influenced by a desire to avoid the cost of building a bridge near Eccles Junction when the M602 /62 was being built ?

Tyldesley - Wigan suffered steady reductions in passenger services in the years up to closure. Although it passed through well-populated areas, much of the housing lay parallel to the railway, making it difficult for stations to be located where they served the greatest concentrations of population.

 

[tbtc]

Quote:
The 21km bus route, a priority project for Transport for Greater Manchester, will take passengers from Leigh to Manchester city centre and the Central Manchester Hospitals site via Tyldesley, Ellenbrook and Salford, reducing journey times to less than 45 minutes.
----------------------------------
And what a huge improvement they are offering, when one remembers that, nearly 50 years ago, Leigh to Manchester took 31 to 32 minutes by train. Such is "progess"

By the same logic, you'd complain when new planes are built, as they aren't as fast as Concorde was?

 

[Nym]

A 777 is slower than a 747-200 if you want a more realistic comparison...

 

[Bevan Price]

By the same logic, you'd complain when new planes are built, as they aren't as fast as Concorde was?

Would't care - nobody is going to get me inside a sealed tube flying several miles high.

 

[yorksrob]

By the same logic, you'd complain when new planes are built, as they aren't as fast as Concorde was?

So you're comparing the National Rail Network, upon which the entire economy depends with Concorde - a brilliant, but ultimately, since nothing much happenned when it ended, not so important form of transport !

Hmm

 

[tbtc]

So you're comparing the National Rail Network, upon which the entire economy depends with Concorde - a brilliant, but ultimately, since nothing much happenned when it ended, not so important form of transport !

Hmm

No, I'm arguing with the "there's no point in building something if it wasn't faster than the best time ever achieved" logic.

If you live in Leigh, all that matters is whether this new service will be faster/better than the existing bus service/ driving. Comparing it to a train service from fifty years ago (as Bevan Price was) is irrelevant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst perusing through various internet listings on this project, there is one that is stated to be currently in the process of being set up for people opposed to the Leigh Guided Busway project. It seems to be called Busway Noway Campaign

 

[Nym]

Just found their site here http://www.planningsanity.co.uk/groups/busway/busguide.htm and it looks like it's in desperate need of updating...

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres two groups, the Busway Noway which opposes the use of the rail corridor for environmental reasons in their locality but has no objection to the concept of a busway built elsewhere and the Transport for Leigh group which initially opposed the concept of the busway arguing that there should be a rail connection instead but which were persuaded by the research evidence TfGM provided and now argue there should be both.

http://www.transportforleigh.org.uk/Transport_for_Leigh/Welcome.html

 

[yorksrob]

No, I'm arguing with the "there's no point in building something if it wasn't faster than the best time ever achieved" logic.

If you live in Leigh, all that matters is whether this new service will be faster/better than the existing bus service/ driving. Comparing it to a train service from fifty years ago (as Bevan Price was) is irrelevant.

I would argue that if you live in Leigh (or visit it regularly) all that matters is that it needs to be re-introduced to the railway network. How fast (or not) the bus goes is beside the point.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just found their site here http://www.planningsanity.co.uk/groups/busway/busguide.htm and it looks like it's in desperate need of updating...

Indeed so. One item the final addresses in particular caught my attention, was that they refer to Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Authority (GMPTA). I could be wrong, but I think that this was renamed when all the other titles were changed to be part of Transport for Greater Manchester Committee (TfGMC), which itself is a joint committee between Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) and the ten ten local areas that make up the Greater Manchester area.

 

[Nym]

It's at 2 Piccadilly (And TfGM) now...

 

[tbtc]

I would argue that if you live in Leigh (or visit it regularly) all that matters is that it needs to be re-introduced to the railway network. How fast (or not) the bus goes is beside the point.

There appears to be little chance of that - with all the investment in other Mancunian transport taking up the budgets (railway electrification, tram extensions...).

So really, its a case of "is the busway value for money which will improve travel to/from Leigh enough to justify building it".

If people would rather that the trackbed remained derelict then fair enough.

 

[yorksrob]

There appears to be little chance of that - with all the investment in other Mancunian transport taking up the budgets (railway electrification, tram extensions...).

So really, its a case of "is the busway value for money which will improve travel to/from Leigh enough to justify building it".

If people would rather that the trackbed remained derelict then fair enough.

I would say that it won't be value for money for the simple reason that it will cost a lot of money without solving the problem.

 

[Nym]

Like many have said, the problem isn't between Leigh and Walkden where the're building the busway, it's between Walkden and the Crescent (and even more so on the A6 into Manchester now it's ruined!)

You could add bus lanes if you wanted, but like I said before, this would mean stealing a lane and making traffic worse, there are a lot of bridges and sections that cannot be widened.

One solution that I would see as benefiting all (asside from building the M601) would be removing the traffic lights from and grade seperating the A580 between Walkden and the A6, meaning freeflowing traffic along the route and that express buses using this route would be able to move faster down there, as would all other traffic, the problem comes when you get to where it drops from four lanes to one, there would need to be something done about Liverpool Road or Regent Road to take the increased traffic flow, (finishing the M602 would be a start!) but with the amount of botched jobs in the road network around Greater Manchester it's any wonder anything moves at all sometimes.