Large white elephant spotted near Wigan

[185]

RIP Common Sense :roll: Perfect opportunity to build a heavy rail scheme for not far off the same (eventual) price.

http://www.gmpte.gov.uk/tfgm_news.cfm?news_id=9008265?submenuheader=3

January start for busway scheme

Further work to prepare for a new busway to provide a fast, frequent and reliable bus service from Leigh to central Manchester will take place in January 2012.

The 21km bus route, a priority project for Transport for Greater Manchester, will take passengers from Leigh to Manchester city centre and the Central Manchester Hospitals site via Tyldesley, Ellenbrook and Salford, reducing journey times to less than 45 minutes.

A 7km stretch of the route will be a dedicated guided section on which only specially-adapted buses will be able to travel, allowing them to avoid busy traffic.

The guided section of the route follows that of the disused former railway line. The scheme also includes a path for walking, cycling and horse-riding.

The remainder of the route follows the East Lancashire Road and will include measures such as dedicated bus lanes and bus priority junctions to help buses avoid delays.

When the busway is complete, there will be at least eight direct services an hour on most of the route during weekday peak times.

In order for the construction of the guided section of the route to begin early in 2013, TfGM's contractors will be clearing some vegetation and trees this winter, starting during the week beginning 2 January 2012.

The work is being carried out in the winter months to avoid disturbing birds during their nesting season, which takes place in spring and summer. Thorough ecological surveys have already been carried out along the route and a number of great crested newts have been relocated to a purpose-built pond in a nearby field to ensure they are not affected by the works.

Tree removal will be kept to a minimum, and TfGM will plant more trees elsewhere than it removes.

TfGM will contact residents and businesses in the area to keep them informed about any work happening close by.

Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of the Transport for Greater Manchester Committee, said: "TfGM always aims to provide the people of Greater Manchester with transport projects that are the most beneficial to passengers and which can boost the local economy.

"The busway is a great example of that and represents excellent value for taxpayers' money.

"It will provide a fast, frequent and reliable transport link between Leigh and Manchester, opening up new opportunities for employment and leisure and helping to promote investment and regeneration in the area."

 

[MK Tom]

I have nothing against busways as a way of improving a city's transport but building them on railway alignments is such a monumental waste of a transport corridor. It's like the travesty being committed in Luton and Dunstable that I was looking at today. They've decimated the formation as though they purposefully wanted to ensure a railway or tramway can't be retro-fitted at any point in the future.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What a hunch of absolute berks they must have been to reach that decision. Pathetic, stupid imbeciles.

 

[142094]

It'll come back to bite them in the backside in a few years time, just wait.

 

[asylumxl]

Bunch of absolute ****ing morons...

Cambridge hasn't showed them anything? And probably Luton's in the future.

It must be one bunch of ******s pushing the same **** ideas.

 

[Ivo]

How many more of these STUPID things are we going to have to build before someone in power realises just how detrimental they are to an urban area? These things almost never work! Perhaps now that a PTE is giving it a go, when it invariably fails others might just take notice? Might?

Ms Greening and friends, please refuse the SERT scheme back home. I will for ever vote Conservative - nay, join the Conservatives, as I hinted at a few months ago - if you do! (Assuming nothing stupid happens such as Nick Griffin becoming Party leader of course.)

 

[tbtc]

These things almost never work!

What's your evidence?

There aren't many significant guided busways in the UK (ignoring the short sections that are more about "priority at junctions" than they are "long segregated busways")

 

[175001]

GMPTE...sorry....GMIPTA.....sorry TfGM, love Trams and Buses, trains, are 2nd best.

 

[Ivo]

What's your evidence?

OK, maybe I said that wrong. It's more a case of "they often don't work, and when they do they are very poor value for money".

I will be surprised if the massive delays and costs invovled in Cambridge prove more worthwhile than pretty much any other scheme, not just reopening the railway to St Ives and the like.

The only one I am aware of that has been a reasonably successful venture is the Bluewater one - which says a lot. Two small-ish towns linked to a large shopping facility, as opposed to a major centre, and in ana rea that is not particularly busy on the roads anyway.

 

[pemma]

Leigh to Manchester in 45 minutes isn't an impressive time. I bet they still intend to convert it to Metrolink but don't have enough funding to do it just now.

 

[tbtc]

OK, maybe I said that wrong. It's more a case of "they often don't work, and when they do they are very poor value for money".

I will be surprised if the massive delays and costs invovled in Cambridge prove more worthwhile than pretty much any other scheme, not just reopening the railway to St Ives and the like.

The only one I am aware of that has been a reasonably successful venture is the Bluewater one - which says a lot. Two small-ish towns linked to a large shopping facility, as opposed to a major centre, and in ana rea that is not particularly busy on the roads anyway.

The Cambridge scheme was badly project managed, I don't think anyone would argue with this. But the same could be said of the Edinburgh trams, the same could be said of almost every rail scheme in the past decade (look at the costs for a few yards of track at Tormorden...).

We need to wait and see how the Cambridgeshire scheme works before we can pass comment on the effectiveness of a long distance scheme like this (rather than just a short section to avoid junctions, like the Scot Hall Road scheme in Leeds).

IIRC Stagecoach were planning on increasing the number of journeys on the Cambridgeshire busway, which suggests that it must be doing okay, but its still too early to judge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Leigh to Manchester in 45 minutes isn't an impressive time. I bet they still intend to convert it to Metrolink but don't have enough funding to do it just now.

The Edinburgh busway was built with the intention to convert it to tram - no reason why the same doesn't happen in Leigh.

 

[Jordy]

Stupid decision, was nobody watching the farce that was (and is!) "The Busway" in Cambridge?

 

[WestCoast]

GMPTE...sorry....GMIPTA.....sorry TfGM, love Trams and Buses, trains, are 2nd best.

My theory about TfGM is that they fear that if they were to invest in Northern's rolling stock and services in the GM area, their investment would benefit areas outside of their remit. This is because few services are contained within the GM area. By investing in trams and buses they feel they can keep the investment within their boundaries.

I am not saying this is the right or wrong think to do by the way.

 

[pemma]

By investing in trams and buses they feel they can keep the investment within their boundaries.

Trams yes they stop before the boundary. Some bus routes cross the boundaries though - there are bus routes like Manchester-Rawtenstall-Nelson and Manchester-Oldham-Huddersfield.

their investment would benefit areas outside of their remit.

They could work together with other PTEs though. TfGM could fund new trains on Manchester-Southport goes in to Merseyside while Merseytravel could fund new trains on Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road which goes in to GM.

 

[WestCoast]

They could work together with other PTEs though. TfGM could fund new trains on Manchester-Southport goes in to Merseyside while Merseytravel could fund new trains on Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road which goes in to GM.

Cooperation and pooling of funds between PTEs for services which benefit both areas I would be supportive of. I've long said that this type of thing should happen.

 

[tbtc]

Stupid decision, was nobody watching the farce that was (and is!) "The Busway" in Cambridge?

Would investing in railway infrastructure be a "stupid decision" because of all the badly managed railway projects?

You'd laugh if someone said that "electrifying the Transpennine route from Manchester to Leeds/York was a stupid decision after the farce that was the WCML upgrade"...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS: Since we have a Mod commenting on this thread, any chance it could be merged with http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47978&highlight=leigh and/or http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55867&highlight=leigh ?

(both threads are about Leigh and the options for a rail/busway link to Manchester)

 

[bluenoxid]

Fantastic. A major change from the profit making, subsidised and over rated rail services. A profit making, subsidised and over rated guided bus service.

Fair to say, considering what Manchester could achieve with that money (better feeds into rail services from Leigh), tram systems and better bus priority schemes.

 

[tbtc]

In fairness to the Busway:

* - Its not like Manchester hasn't had a lot of (planned) "rail" investment recently (various Tram extensions, electrification to Liverpool/Preston/Leeds on the card, Ordsall Curve and other Northern Hub plans), so I don't think anyone can claim TfGM have an agenda
* - Piccadilly and Victoria are both pretty busy (and getting busier) - where would Leigh trains fit?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What's your evidence?

There aren't many significant guided busways in the UK (ignoring the short sections that are more about "priority at junctions" than they are "long segregated busways")

If you look at the Luton-Dunstable scheme you won't need any evidence to see it won't work!

http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media Libra...ransportation /busway/LDB Core Route Plan.pdf

It does not directly serve:

Dunstable town centre (it doesn't go that far!)
Houghton Regis (it doesn't go that far either!)
Luton town centre (to be fair, it does get close)
Luton and Dunstable Hospital (the only NHS hospital in the area)
Pretty much every housing estate in the region (well there is a stop at Clifton Road and Totland close)
Luton Town FC (there may be merit for that)
Most, if not all, schools

It is also worth noting that both the Luton and Leigh proposals have been looked at, approved, had money guaranteed, halted, reviewed, approved again and so on for approximately 15 years!

ISTR, some councillors in Dunstable admitted to only saying yes to the scheme because they thought the Government would not give any money for it (they pledged £78m at the time (10 years ago))

 

[tbtc]

If you look at the Luton-Dunstable scheme you won't need any evidence to see it won't work!

http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media Libra...ransportation /busway/LDB Core Route Plan.pdf

It does not directly serve:

Dunstable town centre (it doesn't go that far!)
Houghton Regis (it doesn't go that far either!)
Luton town centre (to be fair, it does get close)
Luton and Dunstable Hospital (the only NHS hospital in the area)
Pretty much every housing estate in the region (well there is a stop at Clifton Road and Totland close)
Luton Town FC (there may be merit for that)
Most, if not all, schools

It is also worth noting that both the Luton and Leigh proposals have been looked at, approved, had money guaranteed, halted, reviewed, approved again and so on for approximately 15 years!

ISTR, some councillors in Dunstable admitted to only saying yes to the scheme because they thought the Government would not give any money for it (they pledged £78m at the time (10 years ago))

I didn't think it had opened yet?

And one advantage of a Busway is that the buses can extend beyond the "guided" section onto normal roads to serve central Dunstable, central Luton, Houghton Regis etc.

I presume that a rail link wouldn't have served all of these schools/housing estates directly either?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I didn't think it had opened yet?

And one advantage of a Busway is that the buses can extend beyond the "guided" section onto normal roads to serve central Dunstable, central Luton, Houghton Regis etc.

I presume that a rail link wouldn't have served all of these schools/housing estates directly either?

It hasn't opened yet, they only started work on it in the last year or so, but the idea is as sound as making a ship float better by cutting a whole in the hull.

IIRC, the rail link plans (back in 1996 - which where either diesel shuttle or Thameslink services to London) included stops at the L&D hospital (well a short distance away, but far closer than the bus way will have them and within walking distance), which would have been useable for Challney High school (although not ideal), and at Luton Town FC (which would have suited half the pupils at said high school and is essentially in the Bury Park area of Luton).

I'm not exactly sure where the Dunstable stop would have been, but the Luton stop would have been the former Bute Street site, behind the bus station, next to the existing station and a short walk to the shopping centre. I think there was talk of another stop between the L&D and Dunstable, possibly the Halfway House (there is also a Tesco supermarket there).

The problem with the busway is it basically copies the existing bus routes, excepting that it runs down the side of the relief road for much of it's length. A road which I note is not mentioned in any publications of the scheme, despite several mentions of the jammed A505 being a 'key point' for the scheme.

The only reason Friends of the Earth are now backing the scheme is because there is no other scheme to back!

 

[snail]

In fairness to the Busway:

* - Its not like Manchester hasn't had a lot of (planned) "rail" investment recently (various Tram extensions, electrification to Liverpool/Preston/Leeds on the card, Ordsall Curve and other Northern Hub plans), so I don't think anyone can claim TfGM have an agenda
* - Piccadilly and Victoria are both pretty busy (and getting busier) - where would Leigh trains fit?

...and how do the trains get to the hospitals?

 

[gingerheid]

I hope it's constructed so that possibility of conversion to something useful is retained.

 

[WatcherZero]

I see Cambridge is continuing to be a white elephant:

Plans for Cambridge busway to extend to Peterborough
Published on 20 November 2011 by Gemma in Cambridge News


The recently opened Cambridge guided busway route could now be extended to take travellers to and from Peterborough.

The proposal has been put forward by one of the operators of the guided busway, Stagecoach, and follows the successful take-up of the guided busway by travellers since its launch in August.

The plans in their current form do not involve physically extending the special busway track itself, since any bus heading for Peterborough will simply be able to leave the track and continue along normal roads. The proposal will however mean adding eight additional buses to the fleet.

Commenting on the proposal, Stagecoach Cambridgeshire managing director, Andy Campbell, said:


“We believe there is a market there as the train goes round the houses. Our service will also be cheaper than the trains”.

The plans have been put to the Stagecoach board of directors and, if approved, could see the Peterborough to Cambridge link in operation by summer 2012.

Meanwhile, extensions to the guided busway track are being considered in order to link up with both the proposed new Cambridge Science Park station at Chesterton and the new enterprise zone at Alconbury.

The guided busway, which uses a dedicated concrete track to avoid congestion on normal traffic routes, has been used for about half a million journeys thus far since launching in August.

 

[142094]

Cooperation and pooling of funds between PTEs for services which benefit both areas I would be supportive of. I've long said that this type of thing should happen.

Would only work for Metro, SYPTE, TfGM and Merseyrail, and in limited locations. Centro and Nexus are effectively isolated from the rest.

What is needed is more co-operation between PTEs and the LAs that surround them. The problem is age old though - if you live in a PTE area, do you want your money going to help other areas, from which you might so no benefit whatsoever?

 

[asylumxl]

It hasn't opened yet, they only started work on it in the last year or so, but the idea is as sound as making a ship float better by cutting a whole in the hull.

I couldn't agree with you more. The fact is the idea is just stupid, and over time the "guided" section of the route has been cut back further and further.

Even more ridiculous is that due to these changes, the busway doesn't even avoid the congested road it's supposed to avoid!

In my opinion, the only reason for all these rubbish busway schemes is probably because the companies involved have friends in Westminster..

 

[Nym]

* - Piccadilly and Victoria are both pretty busy (and getting busier) - where would Leigh trains fit?

I'll add more later, but read anything I have written about future service patterns at Victoria and you'll quickly find the answer to that is Yes, 2tph without any bay platforms added, and up to 3 or 4tph with some bays on the Chat Moss side (with grade separation)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...and how do the trains get to the hospitals?

Who said they where going to get to the hospitals? If they wanted to get buses there now all they have to do is change the routes, the busway won't make that any easyer, get off that high horse obsession about hospital links!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I couldn't agree with you more. The fact is the idea is just stupid, and over time the "guided" section of the route has been cut back further and further.

Even more ridiculous is that due to these changes, the busway doesn't even avoid the congested road it's supposed to avoid!

In my opinion, the only reason for all these rubbish busway schemes is probably because the companies involved have friends in Westminster..

Oh it will avoid the congested road, it will morethan likely have it's own lane on there, making the East Lancs even harder to get down in a morning, most places on there have choke points where it isn't possible to add another lane, so the only option is to steal one for the buses.

 

[kylemore]

I couldn't agree with you more. The fact is the idea is just stupid, and over time the "guided" section of the route has been cut back further and further.

Even more ridiculous is that due to these changes, the busway doesn't even avoid the congested road it's supposed to avoid!

In my opinion, the only reason for all these rubbish busway schemes is probably because the companies involved have friends in Westminster..

Correct!
First and Souter have "invested" large sums in contributions to political parties (variously labour and SNP- essentially whoevers in power at the time), and they expect a return on that "investment", basically legalised corruption.

Guided busways are a nonsense - the flexibility of the bus is it's key advantage, yes by all means bus priority at junctions and bus lanes at certain locations to speed up journeys. I drove buses on the Edinburgh busway and the ride was terrible, and frequently in the off peak the journey on the guided section was actually slower than on the adjacent road. And if you had a breakdown (not unknown even on well maintained Lothian Buses) complete chaos! It's just as well it closed for conversion to tram as it was falling apart with bits of concrete coming away at the point where the guide wheels contacted.

Right from the start of these schemes it has been seen by idiot local authorites as a way of kidding on they're investing in public transport - but on the cheap. Mind you even these incompetents usually manage to over-run the costs until you could have had a light rail line if it had been planned by people who knew what they were doing!

 

[tbtc]

I see Cambridge is continuing to be a white elephant:

Interesting quotes from that article:

...the successful take-up of the guided busway by travellers since its launch in August...

...The guided busway...has been used for about half a million journeys thus far since launching in August...

Does anyone know how the numbers compare to the expected numbers? That article suggests that the busway is doing okay, now it is up and running.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They could work together with other PTEs though. TfGM could fund new trains on Manchester-Southport goes in to Merseyside while Merseytravel could fund new trains on Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road which goes in to GM.

The problem with the Manchester-Southport line is that after Appley Bridge to near to Meols Cop, there is no PTE involvement. You are then in the administrative area of Lancashire County Council. (To a smaller extent, the Manchester-Kirkby line also has Lancashire County Council land from the Orrell/Upholland border to the Rainford area). Has anyone any news as to the current views of Lancashire County Council on rail transportation? To what extent is the funding of TfGM specific to spending within its own area boundary, whilst noting the "special position" of the Hadfield/Glossop line?

With regard to the Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road line, there is a considerable amount of non-PTE administered land in the central portion. Again, what are the rail provision views of the bodies in this central area and what specific funding requirements do Merseytravel have, noting the 3rd rail extension to Chester was allowed to take place in the past.

Would any extra Government project funding for either TfGM or Merseytravel for projects outside their administrative areas be compensated by a similar reduction in Government grants to the non-PTE areas in-between.