Largest Town with No Sunday Bus Services

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are you implying that the withdrawal of all or nearly all Sunday (or otherwise) bus services in many parts of the country is acceptable, desirable, or just something that we should just put up with because other aspects of life in the UK are OK?

I don't think I said, implied, suggested or otherwise anything of the sort. :roll:

What I have said consistently is that the government are cutting the amount of funding to LAs, and that whilst LAs have statutory responsibilities in areas such as education and social care, the support of local bus services is a very low priority. You could, of course, hope that this will change after 8th June but it won't a) the tories will get in and b) even if they don't, there's only a small amount of latitude and buses don't win votes.

In addition, I have provided carefully evidenced illustrations of quite how varied the position is around the UK and why two places of seemingly equal standing can vary so much, and that in a number of areas, Sunday services are actually better than they were 25 or 30 years ago.

I fully appreciate that this is not a consistent picture and have explained why. In addition, I've explained in the past that conversely, as social changes (e.g. increase in high street footfall on Sundays) have impacted some services positively, the fragmentation and decline of the evening economy has negatively impacted on most evening services.

 

[radamfi]

I don't think I said, implied, suggested or otherwise anything of the sort. :roll:

So what did you mean by "none so blind as those who do not wish to see" ? I could understand if you were saying, "I know there are some places with no Sunday services but there are a few with good ones, and you don't want to acknowledge that", which you had already stated previously, but you were asking whether I thought funding would be available for bus services. By saying "I have written off the UK", I essentially agreed with you that funding will not be forthcoming.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So what did you mean by "none so blind as those who do not wish to see" ? I could understand if you were saying, "I know there are some places with no Sunday services but there are a few with good ones, and you don't want to acknowledge that", which you had already stated previously, but you were asking whether I thought funding would be available for bus services. By saying "I have written off the UK", I essentially agreed with you that funding will not be forthcoming.

You do not wish to see = rather than go and look and see what is actually happening, you self filter and believe the alternative is to travel to the Netherlands.

Believe me, if you go out and actually travel and see what is happening, you will be better informed.

 

[radamfi]

You do not wish to see = rather than go and look and see what is actually happening, you self filter and believe the alternative is to travel to the Netherlands.

Believe me, if you go out and actually travel and see what is happening, you will be better informed.

Have British buses now started to install double-glazing and air-conditioning, enjoy good bus priority, integrate properly and operate comprehensive rural/inter-urban bus services on Sunday? Until that's the case, I don't think I'm missing anything.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There used to be a subsidised service Bradford - Guiseley - Otley - Ilkley which outlasted the daytime service by some years - I used to catch it regularly between Otley and Bradford Interchange after a few drinks. It was usually very quiet, changed number a couple of times and was finally withdrawn as the 963 (with only 2 remaining journeys along the full route) in 2013.

I remember it, for very similar reasons (although I used it much less frequently, really only when I was back at my parents' in Shipley).

I still genuinely cannot believe that the route up Hollins Hill to Guiseley Morrisons, and then Yeadon or Menston, cannot support a commercial bus service. I think more of it has to do with First's retrenchment in recent years; it's a long way from either Leeds or Bradford depots. It hasn't really been the same since Yorkshire Rider days, if I'm honest (well, actually I think it started to go downhill when West Yorkshire Road Car was split up and sold to Yorkshire Rider, but still...)

Believe me, if you go out and actually travel and see what is happening, you will be better informed.

Just not in Shrewsbury on a Sunday

 

[duncombec]

Have British buses now started to install double-glazing and air-conditioning, enjoy good bus priority, integrate properly and operate comprehensive rural/inter-urban bus services on Sunday? Until that's the case, I don't think I'm missing anything.

Presumably you will also be wanting them to travel on the right-hand side of the road?

Jokes aside, though, you cannot really compare methods across international borders. It is no more accurate to try and force Dutch-style behaviour on our operators than it is to expect the French to stand up in a cafe, German style, to match the ongoing belief there is one "continental cafe culture". For every example you can give of a high-quality Dutch or Swiss operational principle, I'm fairly sure I can give you an equally low-quality example from Ireland, Germany or Denmark.

What is so special about double glazing and air conditioning anyway? I can't think of many day-to-day cars that have the former, and the latter is now generally known to be detrimental to fuel consumption and efficiency (and thus presumably emissions). Meanwhile, given the current constraints on funding, why would anyone, council-funded or otherwise, operate a largely empty bus to provide a network for largely non-existent passengers?

There are things that could be learned from European operations, of course there are. But I would be promoting appropriate connections to both other buses and other public transport, buses that actually serve suitable locations (even if the tourist attractions are only served on Saturdays or Sundays), the use of minibuses or taxis - where necessary on sub-contract - rather than full-size buses if that keeps costs down, or the combination of a number of city services into longer, presumably circular services rather than the insistence on trying to replicate the Mon-Sat daytime pattern.

Many rural communities are struggling to retain their Saturday services (where potential users are probably put off by the high fares required to top up the miserly funding received from pass holders): empty follies will simply not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just not in Shrewsbury on a Sunday

Ha ha

When my mum's Sunday service got axed, I never thought to mention to her that the alternative was to fly to the Netherlands

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Presumably you will also be wanting them to travel on the right-hand side of the road?

Jokes aside, though, you cannot really compare methods across international borders. It is no more accurate to try and force Dutch-style behaviour on our operators than it is to expect the French to stand up in a cafe, German style, to match the ongoing belief there is one "continental cafe culture". For every example you can give of a high-quality Dutch or Swiss operational principle, I'm fairly sure I can give you an equally low-quality example from Ireland, Germany or Denmark.

What is so special about double glazing and air conditioning anyway? I can't think of many day-to-day cars that have the former, and the latter is now generally known to be detrimental to fuel consumption and efficiency (and thus presumably emissions). Meanwhile, given the current constraints on funding, why would anyone, council-funded or otherwise, operate a largely empty bus to provide a network for largely non-existent passengers?

There are things that could be learned from European operations, of course there are. But I would be promoting appropriate connections to both other buses and other public transport, buses that actually serve suitable locations (even if the tourist attractions are only served on Saturdays or Sundays), the use of minibuses or taxis - where necessary on sub-contract - rather than full-size buses if that keeps costs down, or the combination of a number of city services into longer, presumably circular services rather than the insistence on trying to replicate the Mon-Sat daytime pattern.

Many rural communities are struggling to retain their Saturday services (where potential users are probably put off by the high fares required to top up the miserly funding received from pass holders): empty follies will simply not stand up to scrutiny.

Exactly, and I can't say I have ever got onto a bus and heard people complaining about double glazing or lack of.

As an aside, I am currently writing this in Sheffield having travelled up from Bristol; I can see the interchange across the road. From here, I'm travelling to Hull where the bus station is also located next to the rail station; even have plus bus added to my ticket

The UK is far from perfect but, as you say, they are other countries that are not perfect too.

 

[radamfi]

What is so special about double glazing and air conditioning anyway? I can't think of many day-to-day cars that have the former, and the latter is now generally known to be detrimental to fuel consumption and efficiency (and thus presumably emissions).

Double glazing has been standard on British trains since the 80s and with the exception of 376s air-conditioning has been standard on British trains for about 20 years. Double glazing stops windows steaming up and so therefore hugely improves comfort in winter and during rainy weather.

But I would be promoting appropriate connections to both other buses and other public transport

We've discussed this at length. Essentially, whilst British bus managers etc. may say they support timetable/fare integration between different buses and different modes, they have so many provisos, ifs and buts that by the time they are finished you end up with little change to what we have at the moment.

 

[duncombec]

Double glazing has been standard on British trains since the 80s and with the exception of 376s air-conditioning has been standard on British trains for about 20 years. Double glazing stops windows steaming up and so therefore hugely improves comfort in winter and during rainy weather.

But how is this any different to a car? I know from daily experience that car drivers will very happily sit in steamed-up cars to get to their double-glazed and steam-less trains. I also know that the double-glazed coaches I commute on have a constant stream of cold-air running down the side of the windows. It is anything less than "hugely improved comfort" when it is below freezing outside.

Have you ever heard someone bemoan the lack of double-glazing on a bus?

We've discussed this at length. Essentially, whilst British bus managers etc. may say they support timetable/fare integration between different buses and different modes, they have so many provisos, ifs and buts that by the time they are finished you end up with little change to what we have at the moment.

Well what more do you expect? Surely there are limits to how long connections are held in the Netherlands? I can read some Dutch; perhaps you'd like to provide a link to a few examples of timetabled inter-modal connections and the relevant conditions?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But how is this any different to a car? I know from daily experience that car drivers will very happily sit in steamed-up cars to get to their double-glazed and steam-less trains. I also know that the double-glazed coaches I commute on have a constant stream of cold-air running down the side of the windows. It is anything less than "hugely improved comfort" when it is below freezing outside.

Have you ever heard someone bemoan the lack of double-glazing on a bus?



Well what more do you expect? Surely there are limits to how long connections are held in the Netherlands? I can read some Dutch; perhaps you'd like to provide a link to a few examples of timetabled inter-modal connections and the relevant conditions?

Quite!

This is straying into the usual hobby horse territory.

Getting back on topic - we have a very polarised position on Sunday bus services. Those LAs that have a better settlement, or put public transport ahead of other priorities, are still supporting services albeit at a lower level.

Otherwise, we have certain places that because of demographics, geography, population density, etc can support services commercially. Others don't.

Hence Selby can have a service every 30 mins to York (with traffic to the city and to the outlet centre) but a service to Goole is just not viable.

It is sad but that is the world we are in.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Otherwise, we have certain places that because of demographics, geography, population density, etc can support services commercially. Others don't.

It does seem to be a quirk of which operator is there, though. Carlisle has a population of 71,000 and is as rural and isolated as Shrewsbury is. Yet Carlisle has a full Sunday service, and Shrewsbury has nothing.

Presumably this is because Stagecoach are happy to open their doors for a smaller profit margin than Arriva are. I don't think the bus services in Carlisle are supported anymore.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It does seem to be a quirk of which operator is there, though. Carlisle has a population of 71,000 and is as rural and isolated as Shrewsbury is. Yet Carlisle has a full Sunday service, and Shrewsbury has nothing.

Presumably this is because Stagecoach are happy to open their doors for a smaller profit margin than Arriva are. I don't think the bus services in Carlisle are supported anymore.

It isn't a exact science and it may also include cost base, passenger base, local demographics etc. I don't know. Certainly Arriva did operate and so knew the loadings etc in Salop. How does Whitby justify one bus doing Eskdale and Sleights but nothing in Shrewsbury?

 

[radamfi]

But how is this any different to a car? I know from daily experience that car drivers will very happily sit in steamed-up cars to get to their double-glazed and steam-less trains. I also know that the double-glazed coaches I commute on have a constant stream of cold-air running down the side of the windows. It is anything less than "hugely improved comfort" when it is below freezing outside.

Have you ever heard someone bemoan the lack of double-glazing on a bus

Cars obviously have demisters. If you go from a coach or train with double glazing to one without the difference is very noticeable in winter. I can remember travelling on Yelloway coaches as a kid and even though there was (poor) air-conditioning the windows steamed up all the time. Pacers also steam up a lot in winter.

Well what more do you expect? Surely there are limits to how long connections are held in the Netherlands? I can read some Dutch; perhaps you'd like to provide a link to a few examples of timetabled inter-modal connections and the relevant conditions?

The main difference is obviously that buses usually go to the station which in itself helps multi-modal connections compared to the British situation. And in the Netherlands you really do stop outside the station. You don't have to cross busy roads or even a taxi rank. Dutch trains nowadays run every 15 minutes or better on most lines so timed bus/train connections are not so important, however in the rural east of the country where frequencies are lower, the train and bus franchise is combined to further aid integration. For example, if you look at the trip from Zutphen to Borculo, the change from bus to train at Ruurlo is co-ordinated in both directions.

https://www.arriva.nl/web/file?uuid...32-6c73-47d5-af4d-f1553a2c3b77&contentid=1223

https://www.arriva.nl/web/file?uuid...32-6c73-47d5-af4d-f1553a2c3b77&contentid=1431

Bus to bus interchange in the countryside is often very impressive, with rural bus stations located at strategic locations with several routes meeting at set minutes past each hour. And usually they arrive in convoys and leave in convoys. Of course, things don't wait forever but if you tell the driver you want a connection the driver will get on the radio to see if the connecting bus will wait. That often isn't necessary, though, as there are often several people wanting the connection from both buses.

One example is Heinnoord bus station about 10 miles south of Rotterdam. Most of the routes on this list have timed connections with each other.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busstation_Heinenoord

https://www.connexxion.nl/data/upload/Connexxion_HWGO_2017_v2.pdf

https://www.connexxion.nl/data/upload/LF 405.pdf

 

[Tetchytyke]

How does Whitby justify one bus doing Eskdale and Sleights but nothing in Shrewsbury?

Arriva have a Park and Ride contract, as well as the X93, so the buses are out anyway in Whitby. But Arriva tried to charge a "voluntary surcharge" on ENCTS passengers on the Whitby town services, until they were told it wasn't allowed, and so there is no evening service on the Whitby town services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva have a Park and Ride contract, as well as the X93, so the buses are out anyway in Whitby. But Arriva tried to charge a "voluntary surcharge" on ENCTS passengers on the Whitby town services, until they were told it wasn't allowed, and so there is no evening service on the Whitby town services.

The buses may be out anyway but a) the variable cost still needs to be borne and b) there's no engineering or management cover locally. Arguably, if it made sense to run and cover the variable cost, Arriva could do the same in Shrewsbury but with Telford managing any breakdowns? Perhaps people didn't travel much on a Sunday in Shrewsbury, even when they had buses?

 

[Martin2012]

In the last 5 years the bus services here in Yate and Chipping Sodbury have actually increased in frequcncy on a sunday.

Previously the 329 from North Yate and Winterbourne and 342 from Chipping Sodbury and South Yate ran at alternative two hourly frequencies with a limited evening service and the last bus back from Bristol was at something like 2145-2150? The 46,(replacement for 329) and 47 (previously 342) now operate hourly during the daytime plus there is a 2 hourly X49 service and an hourly service to Cribbs. Also there is an earlier first bus from Yate to Bristol and 47 runs hourly on sunday evening with the last bus back from Bristol now being at 2335.

Does anyone know how the Yate routes have managed to increase in frequency on a sunday in spite of cutbacks to funding and the like?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the last 5 years the bus services here in Yate and Chipping Sodbury have actually increased in frequcncy on a sunday.

Previously the 329 from North Yate and Winterbourne and 342 from Chipping Sodbury and South Yate ran at alternative two hourly frequencies with a limited evening service and the last bus back from Bristol was at something like 2145-2150? The 46,(replacement for 329) and 47 (previously 342) now operate hourly during the daytime plus there is a 2 hourly X49 service and an hourly service to Cribbs. Also there is an earlier first bus from Yate to Bristol and 47 runs hourly on sunday evening with the last bus back from Bristol now being at 2335.

Does anyone know how the Yate routes have managed to increase in frequency on a sunday in spite of cutbacks to funding and the like?

Probably because of the growth in retailing - no surprise that it features a bus to Cribbs? Also, Bristol still has a vibrant evening economy - more than many places

In fact, the same can be said for many of the routes into Bristol on a Sunday. The 376 used to run every 3 hours to Bristol from Wells; it was raised to hourly and now runs half hourly. The 39 from Bath to Bristol was half hourly, but is now every 20 mins.

However, some of the weaker services just don't have the strength to survive without subsidy, as shown by the Sunday service from Radstock to Bristol being cut as part of BaNES cost saving.

 

[Bantamzen]

I remember it, for very similar reasons (although I used it much less frequently, really only when I was back at my parents' in Shipley).

I still genuinely cannot believe that the route up Hollins Hill to Guiseley Morrisons, and then Yeadon or Menston, cannot support a commercial bus service. I think more of it has to do with First's retrenchment in recent years; it's a long way from either Leeds or Bradford depots. It hasn't really been the same since Yorkshire Rider days, if I'm honest (well, actually I think it started to go downhill when West Yorkshire Road Car was split up and sold to Yorkshire Rider, but still...)

Well judging by the daily traffic, you'd think there was. Its been so many years since there was a what you would call a decent level of weekday service, let alone Sunday service across this section its hard to remember just how busy the section was. But considering that Mon-Sat could at one time support 4-6 buses on hour, and Sunday half that it is surprising that aside from a brief period of Mon-Sat with the TLC 653s, there is just one single decker an hour plying it's way up and down Otley Road.

And whilst the Northern services soak up some demand, with a lot of the areas served heading towards the Wharfe valley many new developments have gone up that are some distance from the train stations and so with few (if any) bus routes heading in the direction of Shipley / Bradford / Aire Valley most people just take to their cars and head for Hollins Hill or over the tops through Baildon to commute. There is a market in and amongst there, it is a question of getting the right one to suit. TLC have tried hard, but with very limited capacity and to be honest probably not enough time or finance to prove the 653 it now falls to another company to maybe see what they could provide. Perhaps someone like TransDev who seem to be growing routes in the area might like to eye it up? Otherwise the traffic will just get worse and eventually Shipley and Guiseley will become entrances to one big car park in-between.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perhaps people didn't travel much on a Sunday in Shrewsbury, even when they had buses?

I've only ever been to Shrewsbury once, so I don't exactly have local knowledge. I just find it amazing that Stagecoach North West can run a commercial bus service in Carlisle from dawn until dusk- admittedly at a relatively low frequency compared to weekdays- yet in Shrewsbury there is nothing at all.

As for Whitby, there is a marginal cost, but a Solo or MPD bouncing round for six hours during the day has very little marginal cost, basically whatever the cost of a driver and a bit of diesel is. The fact it's an outstation of Redcar, and the fact they have to be there anyway for the P&R contract, will only reduce the marginal cost. Without the P&R and the X93, they probably wouldn't bother; I don't think it is coincidence that there is no evening service on the town routes, even on a weekday.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've only ever been to Shrewsbury once, so I don't exactly have local knowledge. I just find it amazing that Stagecoach North West can run a commercial bus service in Carlisle from dawn until dusk- admittedly at a relatively low frequency compared to weekdays- yet in Shrewsbury there is nothing at all.

As for Whitby, there is a marginal cost, but a Solo or MPD bouncing round for six hours during the day has very little marginal cost, basically whatever the cost of a driver and a bit of diesel is. The fact it's an outstation of Redcar, and the fact they have to be there anyway for the P&R contract, will only reduce the marginal cost. Without the P&R and the X93, they probably wouldn't bother; I don't think it is coincidence that there is no evening service on the town routes, even on a weekday.

That very little marginal cost is not insignificant.

Driver - £12 all up cost (e.g. Incl NI, holiday pay, pension) for a ten hour day = £120
Fuel 9hrs x 12 miles = 108 miles/6 mpg = 18 gallons x £4.20 gallon = £76

Add in some extra for tyres and maintenance and it's easily above £200.

 

[philthetube]

That very little marginal cost is not insignificant.

Driver - £12 all up cost (e.g. Incl NI, holiday pay, pension) for a ten hour day = £120
Fuel 9hrs x 12 miles = 108 miles/6 mpg = 18 gallons x £4.20 gallon = £76

Add in some extra for tyres and maintenance and it's easily above £200.

True But divide that by 100 passengers over the day and probably at break even, (I admit I don't know the figures). Add another half dozen who work sundays and would have to make alternative arrangements because no Sunday bus, and those arrangements could involve all week, and it soon becomes a plus.

A factor in the decline if Sunday busses in some areas is that councils give them to other operators to run and this makes them unaffordable to regulars
I was in a situation where I could by a weekly ticket for £25, the evening/Sunday operator changed and all that was available to me was singles at £4.50 a time, £45 a week for an eight mile round trip, I bought a car and the bus lost me, probably for good.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

True But divide that by 100 passengers over the day and probably at break even, (I admit I don't know the figures). Add another half dozen who work sundays and would have to make alternative arrangements because no Sunday bus, and those arrangements could involve all week, and it soon becomes a plus.

A factor in the decline if Sunday busses in some areas is that councils give them to other operators to run and this makes them unaffordable to regulars
I was in a situation where I could by a weekly ticket for £25, the evening/Sunday operator changed and all that was available to me was singles at £4.50 a time, £45 a week for an eight mile round trip, I bought a car and the bus lost me, probably for good.

Yes, and that is the point. Are you getting those 100 customers? Those are the questions that bus companies do ask - if they can make money, they'll run and they do make the calculation in totality. In Whitby, they clearly do have sufficient passengers plus two services that can be efficiently operated by one vehicle in an hour.

As I said before, in Shrewsbury Arriva had the travelling figures; they knew what the performance was and elected not to continue.

You have a valid point on the issue of tendered operations. In some enlightened places, it was the case that if another operator ran the supported service in an evening, travelcards and returns issued by the main operator, the tendered operator would be obliged to accept.

 

[A0wen]

Yes, and that is the point. Are you getting those 100 customers? Those are the questions that bus companies do ask - if they can make money, they'll run and they do make the calculation in totality. In Whitby, they clearly do have sufficient passengers plus two services that can be efficiently operated by one vehicle in an hour.

As I said before, in Shrewsbury Arriva had the travelling figures; they knew what the performance was and elected not to continue.

You have a valid point on the issue of tendered operations. In some enlightened places, it was the case that if another operator ran the supported service in an evening, travelcards and returns issued by the main operator, the tendered operator would be obliged to accept.

There is another factor, which is the contracts drivers are now employed under - it may be they are all on 6 day contracts with one day off, always having Sunday off as its not part of the working week. Many, many moons ago when my late grandfather worked for London Country his garage was one which didn't operate any Sunday services - the Sunday services in the town were covered as they were routes from neighbouring towns who's garages did have a Sunday roster.

 

[6Gman]

There is another factor, which is the contracts drivers are now employed under - it may be they are all on 6 day contracts with one day off, always having Sunday off as its not part of the working week. Many, many moons ago when my late grandfather worked for London Country his garage was one which didn't operate any Sunday services - the Sunday services in the town were covered as they were routes from neighbouring towns who's garages did have a Sunday roster.

"Every Sunday off" can also be a recruitment aid.

 

[edwin_m]

"Every Sunday off" can also be a recruitment aid.

I saw a driver ad by the late and mostly unlamented Premiere Travel, boasting that there was no evening or Sunday working involved (though they did later start some).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I saw a driver ad by the late and mostly unlamented Premiere Travel, boasting that there was no evening or Sunday working involved (though they did later start some).

Indeed, Faresaver in Wiltshire have made a virtue of avoiding Sunday and evening operation, leaving that to First to operate under tender. A number of their core operations run Mon to Fri as they tie into schools work too; this is also true of Abus in Bristol who don't wish to operate at weekends.

 

[Deerfold]

I saw a driver ad by the late and mostly unlamented Premiere Travel, boasting that there was no evening or Sunday working involved (though they did later start some).

When I lived near Slough, First's driver recruitment ads emphasised there was no compulsory Sunday working

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I feel the point is;

Just because there is a profit to be made, does not mean that a business will step in to take that profit.

There may be reasons why a company decides not to earn that extra profit. For example, as a self-employed person, you may well have seven full days worth of potential work, but you turn some of that work down because you want a day or two off!

One problem now faced by the bus industry is it's lack of smaller players ready to step in and take on a bit of extra work for the extra turnover it brings in.

The threat of competition, as much as competition itself, is what holds a company to account and prevents abuse of a monopoly situation. If there were two operators in Shrewsbury, with 50% of the market each, there would be an incentive to provide a Sunday (and evening) service so that you were one up on your competitor.

Arriva may well have the figures for Shrewsbury. There may, or may not, be enough potential business to make it financially viable. But, as other posters have said, if there is value in having Monday to Saturday only working rather than seven days (driver retention, lower overall pay rates, maintenance time) then that may be the underlying thinking rather than that there is insufficient demand.

When did Shrewsbury last have Sunday services. I remember Shropshire CC launching a network of (subsidised) inter-urban services, now all gone. Were there town services at the time? Did Arriva run any of that Sunday network?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If there were two operators in Shrewsbury, with 50% of the market each, there would be an incentive to provide a Sunday (and evening) service so that you were one up on your competitor.

I think that is more the point I was making. My gut instinct is that, for whatever reason, Arriva have decided that they are not interested in making the profit on Sundays in Shrewsbury.

I cannot believe that there is no money to be made in Shrewsbury on Sundays, given that there is money to be made in similar places like Carlisle.

But the lack of independents removes the incentive- part of the reason why Carlisle has the Sunday service it does is because the independent, Wreays, did not run commercially on Sundays and so Stagecoach used it to cement their position. It worked- Wreays are pretty much gone as a commercial competitor to Stagecoach- but the Sunday service remains.

That very little marginal cost is not insignificant.

The Whitby town services only run (roughly) 10am-4.30pm on Sundays, with a PVR of 1. And yes, it wouldn't surprise me if the town services make a small loss, although 75-100 journeys across six hours isn't an unreasonable expectation in the summer.

But it is clearly the X93/X4 and the P&R that keeps the town services running on a Sunday, as the staff needed to run and maintain the buses (even as an outstation of Redcar) are already up and in work.

I wonder if Shrewsbury town services would still operate if there were more interurban services on a Sunday. I still can't believe running a 10am-5pm service using Telford buses and drivers can't make money though. It feels more a lack of will than anything else.