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Largest Town with No Sunday Bus Services

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TheGrandWazoo

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I cannot believe that there is no money to be made in Shrewsbury on Sundays, given that there is money to be made in similar places like Carlisle.

But the lack of independents removes the incentive



The Whitby town services only run (roughly) 10am-4.30pm on Sundays, with a PVR of 1. And yes, it wouldn't surprise me if the town services make a small loss, although 75-100 journeys across six hours isn't an unreasonable expectation in the summer.

But it is clearly the X93/X4 and the P&R that keeps the town services running on a Sunday, as the staff needed to run and maintain the buses (even as an outstation of Redcar) are already up and in work.

As I said before, Arriva were operating various routes under tender. They knew the revenue and costs. Also, Minsterley Motors were also operating into the town; they also elected not to operate. Arriva Oswestry still operate to Wrexham on a Sunday but no longer to Shrewsbury (and would assume they rely on Wrexham for breakdown cover).

In terms of Whitby, I'm not certain what you mean in that the other routes keep the town routes running on a Sunday. It's not like Whitby has any fixed cost that they are soaking up - it really is just a marginal cost. There is no maintenance or supervisory presence on a Sunday in Whitby but clearly are able to make the £20-25 per hour for the marginal cost - each and every hour.

Why can't Shrewsbury achieve that whilst Whitby can? Is it tourist related? I don't know as neither Whitby local routes seem especially touristy though maybe there is an element plus seasonal workers? Perhaps in Shrewsbury, is there a relative lack of traffic and cheap parking?
 
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Robertj21a

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I suppose that there just can't be significant demand for buses in Shrewsbury on Sundays or something would have been done about it by now (presumably a tender from the council, or a local independent earning a few £s extra commercially). Are the locals revolting (!) ? - are there letters to the papers ?, is Arriva forever explaining themselves ? Is it all too spread out to have much in the way of obvious routes on Sundays ?

I don't know Shrewsbury well enough to comment.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I suppose that there just can't be significant demand for buses in Shrewsbury on Sundays or something would have been done about it by now (presumably a tender from the council, or a local independent earning a few £s extra commercially). Are the locals revolting (!) ? - are there letters to the papers ?, is Arriva forever explaining themselves ? Is it all too spread out to have much in the way of obvious routes on Sundays ?

I don't know Shrewsbury well enough to comment.

A bit of a check and discovered that 32800 journeys were made across 6 routes so 630 per day. Estimate that 4 vehicles were out (assuming they were hourly) so probably marginal at best.
 

radamfi

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Maybe bus use in Shrewsbury is generally low on all days of the week for the usual reasons why bus usage is low in Britain, for example unreliable services, high fares, poor connectivity etc. so if people aren't using them much in the week they will be even less likely to use them on Sunday. Maybe if buses in Shrewsbury have had more favourable ownership and/or management for the last 30 years (such as in the usual cited locations of high bus usage) they may have commercial Sunday bus services now?

Traffic problems are certainly an issue in Shrewsbury, for example there is a perceived need for the North West Relief Road. So there is certainly a demand for travel in the area.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Maybe bus use in Shrewsbury is generally low on all days of the week for the usual reasons why bus usage is low in Britain, for example unreliable services, high fares, poor connectivity etc. so if people aren't using them much in the week they will be even less likely to use them on Sunday. Maybe if buses in Shrewsbury have had more favourable ownership and/or management for the last 30 years (such as in the usual cited locations of high bus usage) they may have commercial Sunday bus services now?

Traffic problems are certainly an issue in Shrewsbury, for example there is a perceived need for the North West Relief Road. So there is certainly a demand for travel in the area.

Clearly, it's the patented Radamfi explanation

  • Lack of double glazing
  • Lack of air conditioning
  • Sending buses into a town centre terminal rather than a peripheral rail station
  • Lack of windmills and tulip fields
Excuse my flippancy but it's perhaps a number of things? Perhaps some of the stuff may be/may have been true. However, seems a bit like your stock response and it's probably a mix of things. Firstly, Shrewsbury has always been a bit of a backwater for the main operator, even in the rose tinted days of deregulation. Whether it be BET's BMMO, the NBC's Midland Red, the Drawlane MRN (that I concede was awful) or today's Arriva. However, the same could be said of Hereford and that does have commercial Sunday services.

Instead, a bit of research has revealed that the cost of parking a car for 3 hours is £3.50 Mon to Sat - on a Sunday, you can park all day for a £1.00 (as opposed to £8.00 the rest of the week). The self same carpark adjacent to the bus station. Might that be a significant issue? In addition, there may be some issues with modern development that doesn't promote bus use, especially the very large out of town centre by the football ground. I don't know the town well enough but perhaps these are some of the issues?

As for the NWRR, the issue is that the A5 gets very busy in peak, and for journeys that are more interurban and longer distance. Try it on a Friday night and you have the usual mix of commuters heading to Welshpool from Telford (as an example) plus longer distance holiday traffic - a sea of caravans, and cars with bikes or canoes strapped to the top. I know - it's an experience I've had a few times when travelling to North Wales.
 
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Teflon Lettuce

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Clearly, it's the patented Radamfi explanation

  • Lack of double glazing
  • Lack of air conditioning
  • Sending buses into a town centre terminal rather than a peripheral rail station
  • Lack of windmills and tulip fields
Excuse my flippancy but it's perhaps a number of things? Perhaps some of the stuff may be/may have been true. However, seems a bit like your stock response and it's probably a mix of things. Firstly, Shrewsbury has always been a bit of a backwater for the main operator, even in the rose tinted days of deregulation. Whether it be BET's BMMO, the NBC's Midland Red, the Drawlane MRN (that I concede was awful) or today's Arriva. However, the same could be said of Hereford and that does have commercial Sunday services.

Instead, a bit of research has revealed that the cost of parking a car for 3 hours is £3.50 Mon to Sat - on a Sunday, you can park all day for a £1.00 (as opposed to £8.00 the rest of the week). The self same carpark adjacent to the bus station. Might that be a significant issue? In addition, there may be some issues with modern development that doesn't promote bus use, especially the very large out of town centre by the football ground. I don't know the town well enough but perhaps these are some of the issues?

As for the NWRR, the issue is that the A5 gets very busy in peak, and for journeys that are more interurban and longer distance. Try it on a Friday night and you have the usual mix of commuters heading to Welshpool from Telford (as an example) plus longer distance holiday traffic - a sea of caravans, and cars with bikes or canoes strapped to the top. I know - it's an experience I've had a few times when travelling to North Wales.

or perhaps the reason why Shrewsbury has no sunday services is because it's catchment is a largely rural hinterland, half of which is the sparsely populated mid Wales? the same mid Wales that is broadly speaking deeply traditional in it's outlook... still relatively chapel observant and never having developed a sunday shopping culture?

There are numerous and varied reasons why one town has a better service than another... just look at Milton Keynes and Luton.... Milton Keynes is a well spread out town with many out of town shopping areas and plentiful free or nearly free parking... Luton is a traditional town with a compact shopping area and few out of town retail parks PLUS tradition views on car parking charges... both towns have a similar population... so why is it that MK's bus services are about 3 times as intensive as Luton's on ANY day of the week?

perhaps Radamfi could explain how this could be?
 

Tetchytyke

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or perhaps the reason why Shrewsbury has no sunday services is because it's catchment is a largely rural hinterland, half of which is the sparsely populated mid Wales?

Carlisle is equally rural and just as, er, traditional.

I guess it's just one of those anomalies. I'm amazed, but as I don't live down there I can't comment any more than that really.
 

radamfi

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Instead, a bit of research has revealed that the cost of parking a car for 3 hours is £3.50 Mon to Sat - on a Sunday, you can park all day for a £1.00 (as opposed to £8.00 the rest of the week). The self same carpark adjacent to the bus station. Might that be a significant issue? In addition, there may be some issues with modern development that doesn't promote bus use, especially the very large out of town centre by the football ground. I don't know the town well enough but perhaps these are some of the issues?

Parking on Sunday was free in many town centres until about 10-15 years ago but now many charge even if it is a nominal charge like £1. Even some places like Ashford Designer Outlet charge £1 now. So Sunday parking is more expensive than it has ever been. Of course, we had Sunday services before Sunday shopping was even allowed. Sunday shopping is massive in the UK, whereas it is still quite rare in many parts of Europe.

When the lack of Sunday buses and Boxing Day buses and trains is discussed, shopping is always brought up in the argument, yet a more dominant reason for travel is probably visiting friends and family. Presumably that was the main reason for bus travel before Sunday shopping was allowed. Visiting friends and family still happens, but now largely by car and/or train.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Carlisle is equally rural and just as, er, traditional.

I guess it's just one of those anomalies. I'm amazed, but as I don't live down there I can't comment any more than that really.

Indeed, it's not an exact science. You have demographics (age, economic activity, SE), land use, topography, structure of urban development, bus priority, culture, local bus management approach, local authority attitude, etc.

In that respect, think most people do have a valid point in the many facets of why some towns do have a service and some don't but it is a mixed picture and for all (and more) of the reasons that people have said.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Parking on Sunday was free in many town centres until about 10-15 years ago but now many charge even if it is a nominal charge like £1. Even some places like Ashford Designer Outlet charge £1 now. So Sunday parking is more expensive than it has ever been. Of course, we had Sunday services before Sunday shopping was even allowed. Sunday shopping is massive in the UK, whereas it is still quite rare in many parts of Europe.

When the lack of Sunday buses and Boxing Day buses and trains is discussed, shopping is always brought up in the argument, yet a more dominant reason for travel is probably visiting friends and family. Presumably that was the main reason for bus travel before Sunday shopping was allowed. Visiting friends and family still happens, but now largely by car and/or train.

The increase in Sunday bus services is a direct correlation to the change in Sunday trading laws.

The idea of Sunday parking being more expensive that ever isn't the point; it's the wrong comparator.

The issue is it's a £1 for a car - a fixed asset that may be used Mon to Fri by someone commuting but is "free" at the weekend. The fuel and and parking of a £1 is a minimal sum vs. the cost of getting the bus into town. This is how real people think.... :roll:
 

radamfi

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The increase in Sunday bus services is a direct correlation to the change in Sunday trading laws.

The idea of Sunday parking being more expensive that ever isn't the point; it's the wrong comparator.

The issue is it's a £1 for a car - a fixed asset that may be used Mon to Fri by someone commuting but is "free" at the weekend. The fuel and and parking of a £1 is a minimal sum vs. the cost of getting the bus into town. This is how real people think.... :roll:

The vast majority of car trips on any day of the week don't involve a parking charge at all, because neither end of the trip is in a town centre. Even some trips to town centre don't have a parking charge because there is private parking. Most people visiting friends and family usually have free parking at the destination. The most successful public transport networks in the world cater for travel to places other than the town centre, and reasons for travel other than shopping, school and work.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The vast majority of car trips on any day of the week don't involve a parking charge at all, because neither end of the trip is in a town centre. Even some trips to town centre don't have a parking charge because there is private parking. Most people visiting friends and family usually have free parking at the destination. The most successful public transport networks in the world cater for travel to places other than the town centre, and reasons for travel other than shopping, school and work.


This was a question about Sunday bus services esp. in Shrewsbury - not talking about Ashford or Arbroath and why they aren't more successful.

You may not care to listen but the truth is that buses are good at moving people along major traffic flows and that usually involves major traffic objectives - from outlying residential areas to town centres, hospitals, shopping centres (the Bluewater and Merry Hill type - not some poxy retail park).

The growth of Sunday buses (and why other services do not survive) is attributable to the growth of retailing predominantly. Who says? Well perhaps the MD of Arriva Bus Wales who, when doubling the frequency of the core North Wales routes to half hourly said just that.

Of course, what do experts know?
 

175mph

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Gainsborough in Lincolnshire doesn't have any Sunday bus services as far as I know.
 

Smethwickian

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With major cuts in Staffordshire County Council funding from April, towns such as Rugeley and Penkridge will be without Sunday links and many others will be busless after about 6pm weekdays.
 

Dentonian

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In Scotland, there's no archaic trading laws on Sunday so there's quite a lot of demand throughout the day for travel to major retail centres.

That said, I suppose that in England and Wales it would be relatively easy to provide a Sunday service to the shops; as they only open for six hours a day most routes could easily be covered by a single shift of drivers.

Not that clear cut. Sunday trading laws in England (and presumably, Wales) state that (large) shops can open AND take money for goods for no more than any 6 hours. Smaller shops can open when they want, btw. Large shops can (and do) however, open their doors somewhat earlier than the chosen 6 hour period, to allow customers to browse and indeed, to purchase and consume food and drink, as these are regarded as a "service" not goods. Also, shops don't have to open the tills for the same six hours, but because the free market UK style seems to be breed a sheep like (or lemming like) mentality, they all seem to copy each other. Indeed, its only recently I learnt that the law allowed for any 6 hours, as I believed for a long time it was strictly 1100 to 1700 hrs. Unfortunately, both GMPTA/E (as the tendering authority at the time Sunday trading was introduced) and the commercial Operators (certainly Stagecoach Manchester), re-inforced this belief through not only the late starting time of many Sunday services, but the unrealistic running times of any services that do/did run before 1100hrs.

OTOH, even if it was a strict 1100-1700, individual shifts could not cover each bus, unless services were suspended from, say 1330-1415, as mealbreaks of 1x 30 minutes or 2x 20 minutes are legally required in any shift over 6hrs 36 mins. It would even be a stretch to cover individual services with a standard duty of say, 8hrs, even ignoring the period when the cafes etc are open. On top of the 6 to 7 hours shops are open, the bus driver has to sign on for duty, find and check the allocated bus is safe to go out on the road (15 minutes?), run to the start point of the route, run the journey and arrive in the town/city centre at an attractive time for shoppers. The same is then done in reverse when the shops shut.

As usual, economics of scale and flexibilty of numbers comes in to play, which is why it is far more likely that a large/r town will be served by a commercial Operator running a number of Sunday services, than a smaller town where only one or two catchment areas justify a bus into the centre.
 

Deerfold

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Indeed, its only recently I learnt that the law allowed for any 6 hours, as I believed for a long time it was strictly 1100 to 1700 hrs. Unfortunately, both GMPTA/E (as the tendering authority at the time Sunday trading was introduced) and the commercial Operators (certainly Stagecoach Manchester), re-inforced this belief through not only the late starting time of many Sunday services, but the unrealistic running times of any services that do/did run before 1100hrs.

It's not *any* 6 hours, it's 6 hours between 1000 and 1800. In my local town the two larger supermarkets stagger their opening times so one is 1000-1600 and the other is 1100-1700.

However, on a Sunday there are 3 different bus routes past my house from different places- one of them gets into town for 0955 - the others 1029 and 1100.
 

Dentonian

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It's not *any* 6 hours, it's 6 hours between 1000 and 1800. In my local town the two larger supermarkets stagger their opening times so one is 1000-1600 and the other is 1100-1700.

However, on a Sunday there are 3 different bus routes past my house from different places- one of them gets into town for 0955 - the others 1029 and 1100.

I stand corrected - although the principle still holds.
 

Jordan Adam

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Aberdeen which i'd regard as a medium sized city that's quite spread out has seen a bit of a trend over the past few years that have seen Sunday services massively improve.

The 1/2 operate Every 10 minutes during the day and every 15 during the evening, the 12 increased last year to Every 20 minutes and the 17 is away to increase to Every 15 minutes at the end of the month.

Heathryfold for example. About 10 years ago had 2 buses per hour on Sundays. Now it has 7 buses per hour.
The Dubford and Denmore areas are about to get their Sunday service back which will mean that 12 buses per hour will serve the King Street area.
It's very likely that the 19 and 23 will see frequency increases very soon too.
I'd say Sundays from my perspective at least, have seen the biggest over all improvements in services.

Stagecoach also run their 59 and 727 on a 20 minute frequency.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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OTOH, even if it was a strict 1100-1700, individual shifts could not cover each bus, unless services were suspended from, say 1330-1415, as mealbreaks of 1x 30 minutes or 2x 20 minutes are legally required in any shift over 6hrs 36 mins. It would even be a stretch to cover individual services with a standard duty of say, 8hrs, even ignoring the period when the cafes etc are open. On top of the 6 to 7 hours shops are open, the bus driver has to sign on for duty, find and check the allocated bus is safe to go out on the road (15 minutes?), run to the start point of the route, run the journey and arrive in the town/city centre at an attractive time for shoppers. The same is then done in reverse when the shops shut.
I hate to be pedantic but a single driver could cover a shift that only operates during shopping hrs, even allowing for sign on/ sign off and light running. Under Domestic rules you can drive for up to 8 1/2 hrs continuously as long as there are accumalated breaks of 45 mins... and unbelievably even a 1 minute stand time can be included in that calculation. Even if the car working was so tightly scheduled that only 15 mins "breaks" had accumulated, the operator could then get round that by scheduling a 30 minute break before running light back to the depot!
 

ivanhoe

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Once a town like Shrewsbury gets used to no Sunday Service, it ain’t ever going to come back unless the town itself has a strategy for increased bus usage. This will require the said Council to put its hand in its pocket to subsidise such routes as well as look at the horrendous traffic issues in the town and implement traffic flow measures which will favour the bus. The lack of Sunday services is usually linked to early evening finishes during the rest of the week.
There is a lack of political will to do anything other than improve things for motorists in Shrewsbury. It’s a lovely town BUT it appears to be behind the times on so many issues. The Unitary status of Telford has broken up the effectiveness of the County Council and perhaps the ironic aspect of Shrewsbury is that it is the County Town but not the most economically important area. (Telford)
 

SCH117X

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Operator attitude can be a factor - Connexions do not run evening and Sunday services because the back up costs (cleaners, engineers etc) are too much. Operators that have a depot open on a Sunday, because they have key commercial routes that they would be completely daft not to operate, can run more marginal services that make a limited profit as the back up costs are not excessively increased.
 

Typhoon

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There is a lack of political will to do anything other than improve things for motorists in Shrewsbury. It’s a lovely town BUT it appears to be behind the times on so many issues. The Unitary status of Telford has broken up the effectiveness of the County Council and perhaps the ironic aspect of Shrewsbury is that it is the County Town but not the most economically important area. (Telford)
Absolutely, but not only is Telford the most important economic area, but the most populated as well, by some distance. Anyone wishing to develop (leisure/ retail) facilities is going to look there first. Also, for several towns in Shropshire, it is closer.

Elsewhere in the thread, there are comparisons with Carlisle and Hereford. In Cumbria, Carlisle is No.1. In Herefordshire, Hereford is very much No.1. In Shropshire, Shrewsbury is very much No.2.
 

Robertj21a

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Absolutely, but not only is Telford the most important economic area, but the most populated as well, by some distance. Anyone wishing to develop (leisure/ retail) facilities is going to look there first. Also, for several towns in Shropshire, it is closer.

Elsewhere in the thread, there are comparisons with Carlisle and Hereford. In Cumbria, Carlisle is No.1. In Herefordshire, Hereford is very much No.1. In Shropshire, Shrewsbury is very much No.2.

Very true. Although Shrewsbury will be No 1 for tourists etc, no doubt the vast majority will go there by car/train anyway. I think it fair to say that Telford is unlikely to attract too much in the way of tourists !
 

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Very true. Although Shrewsbury will be No 1 for tourists etc, no doubt the vast majority will go there by car/train anyway. I think it fair to say that Telford is unlikely to attract too much in the way of tourists !

Going to be very pedantic here, but the World Heritage site of Ironbridge and the Ironbridge Gorge museums of Coalbrookdale, etc, are within the Telford & Wrekin unitary council area. Think you'll find they get one or two visitors and, indeed, have in previous years enjoyed enhanced summer shuttle bus links, including Sundays, between the various museum sites and car parks.

But I agree if it's Telford town centre you're thinking off, then, yes, not much to attract anyone who hasn't already seen a typical late 20th century shopping mall anywhere else.
 

Dentonian

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I hate to be pedantic but a single driver could cover a shift that only operates during shopping hrs, even allowing for sign on/ sign off and light running. Under Domestic rules you can drive for up to 8 1/2 hrs continuously as long as there are accumalated breaks of 45 mins... and unbelievably even a 1 minute stand time can be included in that calculation. Even if the car working was so tightly scheduled that only 15 mins "breaks" had accumulated, the operator could then get round that by scheduling a 30 minute break before running light back to the depot!

It looks like the Law has changed - for the worse - since I was a Scheduler in the 1980/90s. And I bet bus company managers and shareholders whinge about the time off drivers have sick with stomach problems...............and worse.
 

route101

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It's not *any* 6 hours, it's 6 hours between 1000 and 1800. In my local town the two larger supermarkets stagger their opening times so one is 1000-1600 and the other is 1100-1700.

However, on a Sunday there are 3 different bus routes past my house from different places- one of them gets into town for 0955 - the others 1029 and 1100.

Living in scotland this always catches me out , always forget about it .
 

Teflon Lettuce

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It looks like the Law has changed - for the worse - since I was a Scheduler in the 1980/90s. And I bet bus company managers and shareholders whinge about the time off drivers have sick with stomach problems...............and worse.
no, the law hasn't changed, it has been as I stated ever since before I started in the industry in the mid 80's. However what HAS changed is the power [or lack thereof] of the unions. Certainly before deregulation, if you were scheduling for a large company or municipal operator then the union agreements would have been very restrictive and certainly wouldn't have allowed scheduling to the legal maximum... very much in the old days the "spirit" of the law was what mattered whereas now it is very much the "letter" of the law... and the LETTER of the law allows you to schedule a driver to work 365 days a year!
 

Dentonian

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no, the law hasn't changed, it has been as I stated ever since before I started in the industry in the mid 80's. However what HAS changed is the power [or lack thereof] of the unions. Certainly before deregulation, if you were scheduling for a large company or municipal operator then the union agreements would have been very restrictive and certainly wouldn't have allowed scheduling to the legal maximum... very much in the old days the "spirit" of the law was what mattered whereas now it is very much the "letter" of the law... and the LETTER of the law allows you to schedule a driver to work 365 days a year!

Again, I thought it was illegal to work more than 13 days in a row. It really is a wonder there aren't more accidents involving buses.
 

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