Last call for the Charing Cross to Gillingham via Woolwich semi fasts

[Daz28]

Would you be willing to address the point that, as a result of the new Thameslink service, Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith have all lost their regular 10-minute (almost) turn-up-and-go service.

Belvedere and Erith have six tph with a gap pattern of 10-14-6-10-14-6. The challenge with achieving an even 10 minute interval is the need to coordinate with the Thameslink services. You can’t have 6tph for some stations and 8tph for other stations on the same line and everyone get an even interval.

The SouthEastern timetable consultation response attempts to answer many of the questions in this thread:

https://www.southeasternrailway.co....018-timetable-consultation-response.pdf?la=en

A south east London MP shared concerns received from a number of constituents that we planned to reduce ser- vices from Erith and Belvedere, increase journey times, stops would be missed out and services to some London stations would be lost. We also received a number of requests for more services to stop at Woolwich Dockyard.
In response, there will still be six off peak services stopping at Erith and Belvedere, and the new Southeastern time- table includes more stops at Woolwich Dockyard than previously.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Belvedere and Erith have six tph with a gap pattern of 10-14-6-10-14-6. The challenge with achieving an even 10 minute interval is the need to coordinate with the Thameslink services. You can’t have 6tph for some stations and 8tph for other stations on the same line and everyone get an even interval.

If, by 'everyone get an even interval', you mean a train every 10 minutes at the some stations and a train every 7.5 minutes at other stations - then, sure you can't achieve that. But what you can achieve - and what the old timetable did achieve - was an even train every 10 minutes at every station, and some stations had a 'bonus' train every half hour that took a different route, and was useful for people who specifically wanted that different route (And for anyone at Belvedere, Erith, etc. who specifically wanted the CHX trains, it was a simple same-platform change with a connection time of a few minutes). That seems as close to even as you can achieve.

To my mind those 14 minute gaps that you get at some stations are quite serious - it means someone using the service as true turn-up-and-go (ie. arriving at the station at a random time without trying to coordinate with the timetable) has an almost 50% chance of arriving in a 14-minute gap instead of a 10-minute gap. For some people, that could be a significant disincentive to use the train if they have other means available to travel.

At Cannon Street it's arguably even worse, since where there used to be Greenwich-line trains every 10 minutes, now there are gaps of up to 20 minutes - and if you turn up randomly you have a 67% chance of arriving in the 20-minute gap. In that case, you might be able to change to the Thameslink Rainham train at London Bridge, but only really if you arrive within the first few minutes of that 20-minute gap and if there's another train about to leave Cannon Street - otherwise you won't get to London Bridge in time and you'll be just as well off waiting at Cannon Street.

 

[telstarbox]

West Hampstead from the south is a bit of a red herring - the links to Farringdon and St Pancras are the ones which will see the most passengers.

 

[KingJ]

There is an obsession on this board with toilets, what happened to going before you leave work/home?

If Higham is not that well used, then 2tph to London slow and a connection to Crossrail should be enough. Temporarily a HS1 easement (and call) for there and Strood might be a good olive branch.

There are alas a good number of us who need urgent, unexpected access to toilets due to either acute or chronic medical conditions. I do not consider the argument of "but the stations have toilets" sufficient - many stations close their facilities for significant parts of the day (or even all day on certain days!), not to mention that late at night hopping off to use the toilet could mean you've waiting 20, 30, 60 minutes for the next service. Beyond this, station toilets aren't much help when your train gets caught up in congestion or when an incident occurs on the line which causes the train to be held outside the station for an indeterminate amount of time.

Yes, go before you leave home/work etc. And make use of facilities at stations where available. But onboard toilets are an absolute lifeline for many travellers. It's very disappointing that the 345s do not have any form of toilet provision, especially in an era when we're trying to make travel as accessible as possible to all travellers.

Apologies for taking the thread off topic, I couldn't leave that question hanging. Hopefully that helps illustrate just why so many consider onboard toilet facilities essential and important!

---

In terms of the Higham services, although 4 TPH would indeed be too many for a station with that level of patronage, stopping 2 of the high speed services per hour until Thameslink returns to an orderly fashion would i'm sure be a big plus for Higham's travellers. Even if only in the peak i'm sure it'd go quite a way to addressing the issues facing Higham's users in the short term.

 

[rd749249]

I get all nostalgic when I think of this service. It was a rare treat to stop at only 4 stations to get home from London on what must have been the fastest service to Dartford at the time(London Bridge, Greenwich, Woolwich Arsenal & Abbey Wood). The only criticism I had of putting the semi-fasts down this line was the amount of low PSR’s from Greenwich to Woolwich Arsenal or Lewisham to the same. Then, when I worked in the west end, Charing Cross did a semi fast up the Sidcup line to Strood, fast from Waterloo East to New Eltham. Given that the only significant PSR’s were at the crossover just past St. John’s and into Hither Green, I always felt that was a better line of route for fast trains to Dartford and beyond. Mind you, the stopping Sidcup service was always late so we were frequently held outside Sidcup before that went into the siding. Also remember that Greenhithe wasn’t a regular stopping station until more recent times. Memories

 

[Barn]

You know for all that talk about Plumstead and Slade Green being “busy stations” that can’t cope with just a “basic” 6tph, they’re not that busy at all, before and after the 20th it’s actually laughable,
Erith on the other hand looks pretty busy these days, yet Erith gets a less tph than the aforementioned stations, you do wonder whether these rail bosses actually do their research (spoiler alert, they don’t or else Gravesend wouldn’t be the starting point for the fasts while Gillingham is the starting point of a stopping service)

That's just not right. Plumstead's usage is comparable to Charlton's, and way more than Erith's. That's before the new developments in West Thamesmead, for which Plumstead will be the railhead.

I happen to think that an even 6tph would suffice at Plumstead. But if you were to create 6tph now by cutting out 2tph from the pattern (a la Erith) then the 20-minute gaps would be inappropriate. There are already some peak gaps (e.g. nothing between 1820 and 1840 from London Bridge to Plumstead).

Are TL drivers to be trained on another route to provide a weekend service to Medway when the North Kent is closed for maintenance?

 

[Barn]

If, by 'everyone get an even interval', you mean a train every 10 minutes at the some stations and a train every 7.5 minutes at other stations - then, sure you can't achieve that. But what you can achieve - and what the old timetable did achieve - was an even train every 10 minutes at every station, and some stations had a 'bonus' train every half hour that took a different route, and was useful for people who specifically wanted that different route

Yes, that's right.

You can combine TL with Cannon Street services in an even 10 minute pattern. This gives a perfect 6tph London Bridge to Greenwich but it messes up Erith as TL doesn't stop there.

If you managed to match up the Charing Cross and Cannon Street services, you might be able to get a perfectly-spaced 6tph between Charlton and Slade Green but you'd mess up the Greenwich line.

The former approach was taken.

The difference with the old timetable was that it had a simple 6tph from Cannon Street to Slade Green, all stations. The bonus was the semi-fast.

Ideally, Erith would have been served by Thameslink and stations like Stone Crossing left with a Southeastern service, but I guess the aim was to give as many stations as possible a direct Abbey Wood service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I get all nostalgic when I think of this service. It was a rare treat to stop at only 4 stations to get home from London on what must have been the fastest service to Dartford at the time(London Bridge, Greenwich, Woolwich Arsenal & Abbey Wood). The only criticism I had of putting the semi-fasts down this line was the amount of low PSR’s from Greenwich to Woolwich Arsenal or Lewisham to the same. Then, when I worked in the west end, Charing Cross did a semi fast up the Sidcup line to Strood, fast from Waterloo East to New Eltham. Given that the only significant PSR’s were at the crossover just past St. John’s and into Hither Green, I always felt that was a better line of route for fast trains to Dartford and beyond. Mind you, the stopping Sidcup service was always late so we were frequently held outside Sidcup before that went into the siding. Also remember that Greenhithe wasn’t a regular stopping station until more recent times. Memories

Indeed, Greenhithe was only added in 1998 ahead of the Bluewater opening,

That's what made the Woolwich semi fasts rather eccentric, since technically the Sidcup was probably the better route to have the fasts, but I guess more was going on on the Woolwich line and loads of developments happened along that line in recent decades.

This debacle shows that the timetable worked better before May 20th, 6tph on the line, with some larger stations receiving an extra 2tph semi fast service

Yes, that's right.

You can combine TL with Cannon Street services in an even 10 minute pattern. This gives a perfect 6tph London Bridge to Greenwich but it messes up Erith as TL doesn't stop there.

If you managed to match up the Charing Cross and Cannon Street services, you might be able to get a perfectly-spaced 6tph between Charlton and Slade Green but you'd mess up the Greenwich line.

The former approach was taken.

The difference with the old timetable was that it had a simple 6tph from Cannon Street to Slade Green, all stations. The bonus was the semi-fast.

Ideally, Erith would have been served by Thameslink and stations like Stone Crossing left with a Southeastern service, but I guess the aim was to give as many stations as possible a direct Abbey Wood service.

If this was the case then why keep services at 2tph between Abbey Wood and stations east of Dartford? Surley Gravesend and stations to Stone Crossing would prefer 4tph to Abbey Wood, the CX-Dartford service should be extended to Gravesend and the Victoria service kept at Dartford?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, that's right.

You can combine TL with Cannon Street services in an even 10 minute pattern. This gives a perfect 6tph London Bridge to Greenwich but it messes up Erith as TL doesn't stop there.

If you managed to match up the Charing Cross and Cannon Street services, you might be able to get a perfectly-spaced 6tph between Charlton and Slade Green but you'd mess up the Greenwich line.

The former approach was taken.

The difference with the old timetable was that it had a simple 6tph from Cannon Street to Slade Green, all stations. The bonus was the semi-fast.

Ideally, Erith would have been served by Thameslink and stations like Stone Crossing left with a Southeastern service, but I guess the aim was to give as many stations as possible a direct Abbey Wood service.

Yes I think that's correct.

There are really several issues being mixed up in this thread:

• The diversion of 2tph from Cannon Street up the Thameslink core
• Swapping the 2tph semi-fasts between Charlton and Dartford from the Lewisham/CHX trains to the Thameslink ones
• Running the 2tph Gillingham/Rainham trains as all stops East of Dartford.

And it's really the 2nd issue - the swapping over of the semi-fasts between Charlton and Dartford - which has screwed over Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith, since that makes it impossible to serve all stations on the line with a regular 10-minute frequency. I wonder if that's the reason that the decision was taken to slow down the semi-fasts by having them stop at Plumstead and Slade Green too? From that point of view, it would arguably have been better to keep the semi-fasts as the via-Lewisham trains.

As for the 3rd issue - you're correct that running Thameslink as all stops to Rainham does give more stations a direct link to Abbey Wood - but at the expense of slowing down services for people further out. The other thing people haven't really drawn much attention to is that it means there's still only a half-hourly service from East of Dartford to Abbey Wood, which I suspect may not reflect likely demand for the interchange with Crossrail.

It's for those reasons that I've argued it would have been better - if there had to be 2tph Thameslink - to run them as all stops to Gravesend, replacing the CST-Dartford trains, while keeping the CHX-Gillingham route as the semi-fast East of Charlton (and presumably running it through to Rainham). That would have solved most of the issues people have been complaining about on this thread: People from Medway would have kept their semi-fast, more stations would get a more frequent link to Abbey Wood, and all Greenwich/Woolwich line stations would be able to keep their 10-minute frequency. And it would also have given a better service on the Sidcup stations if, as part of that, the Sidcup line became 6tph all stops at 10-minute intervals.

 

[cle]

If they ever do a proper Abbey Wood rebuild (so stupid to have built it as-is) for the purpose of extending Crossrail to the east, they should create a third platform to allow inner metro services to turn, and reduce traditional frequencies to the east, given 12tph Crossrail services.

If not, and would be useful today, they should have built a bay to allow 4-6 car trains from Abbey Wood to the east which wouldn’t eat up London paths but would provide good connectivity. Perhaps also if GOBLIN heads that way, there could be a smarter rebuild.

London has changed, the termini are largely full and as with Stratford, we need to see more services which don’t run through to the traditional terminals, but to these emerging hubs. Tokyo has this all over. But we don’t have the platform/line space to do it neatly. Lewisham would be another great spot for this, especially once the Bakerloo arrives. Clapham Junction with some work could do this for SWT.

 

[NorthKent1989]

No more Thameslink trains for this evening........I would slow clap but the powers that be would take it as a praise rather than a criticism

 

[NorthKent1989]

If they ever do a proper Abbey Wood rebuild (so stupid to have built it as-is) for the purpose of extending Crossrail to the east, they should create a third platform to allow inner metro services to turn, and reduce traditional frequencies to the east, given 12tph Crossrail services.

If not, and would be useful today, they should have built a bay to allow 4-6 car trains from Abbey Wood to the east which wouldn’t eat up London paths but would provide good connectivity. Perhaps also if GOBLIN heads that way, there could be a smarter rebuild.

London has changed, the termini are largely full and as with Stratford, we need to see more services which don’t run through to the traditional terminals, but to these emerging hubs. Tokyo has this all over. But we don’t have the platform/line space to do it neatly. Lewisham would be another great spot for this, especially once the Bakerloo arrives. Clapham Junction with some work could do this for SWT.

That last point hit the nail on the head.

At the end of the day traditional working patterns are changing, not every works in Central London anymore, most businesses are moving to upcoming areas like Stratford and Lewisham, one idea I had for Lewisham is that platforms one and two become terminal platforms for outer suburban semi fast services to Gravesend and Sevenoaks while platforms three and four can keep the through services to all three terminals (Victoria, Charing Cross and Cannon Street) From the Woolwich and Bexleyheath lines.

It’s pie in the sky of course but it’s could be one way of solving the Lewisham issue long term, maybe Then this will also keep the Blackheath crowd happy at keeping all three terminals.

 

[Class465fan]

There was a service to gravesend that did a similar run via abbey wood that the old "CHX to Gillingham" service did earlier on today, but instead of it going via Lewisham (and also not going to Gillingham but terminating at gravesend instead) it went via Greenwich. Probably ran this service because of thameslink appalling service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There was a service to gravesend that did a similar run via abbey wood that the old "CHX to Gillingham" service did earlier on today, but instead of it going via Lewisham (and also not going to Gillingham but terminating at gravesend instead) it went via Greenwich. Probably ran this service because of thameslink appalling service.

This is exactly what Kent Council and Medway wanted for this service, but that would leave a worse service for a Deptford, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park, which is unreasonable

 

[telstarbox]

Which businesses are moving to Lewisham?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Which businesses are moving to Lewisham?

Not sure which specifically but they are expecting growth in that area, at the moment Westfields could possibly come to Lewisham in the early 2020s, and BoxPark is also being planned, Lewisham is fast becoming a major centre in its own right.

So I’m certain those with vision may move to Lewisham in the years to come

 

[Barn]

There was a service to gravesend that did a similar run via abbey wood that the old "CHX to Gillingham" service did earlier on today, but instead of it going via Lewisham (and also not going to Gillingham but terminating at gravesend instead) it went via Greenwich. Probably ran this service because of thameslink appalling service.

There are a few peak Strood services which call at all Greenwich line stations, then semi-fast to Dartford, then all stations to Strood.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W42128/2018/06/05

 

[Class465fan]

There are a few peak Strood services which call at all Greenwich line stations, then semi-fast to Dartford, then all stations to Strood.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W42128/2018/06/05

Same service like this one (earlier) but it didn't call at all stations from dartford to gravesend.

 

[MikeWh]

... one idea I had for Lewisham is that platforms one and two become terminal platforms for outer suburban semi fast services to Gravesend and Sevenoaks while platforms three and four can keep the through services to all three terminals (Victoria, Charing Cross and Cannon Street) From the Woolwich and Bexleyheath lines.

It’s pie in the sky of course but it’s could be one way of solving the Lewisham issue long term, maybe Then this will also keep the Blackheath crowd happy at keeping all three terminals.

How would you get the freight from the South London Line to Hither Green?

 

[NorthKent1989]

How would you get the freight from the South London Line to Hither Green?

The track bed would remain and for such a service only one platform would be used at any time leaving the freight to use platform 1

 

[cle]

Ideally a rebuild would allow an extra platform - we are only talking 2-4tph shuttles to augment the network here.

Thinking now, all of the likely candidates are such that any terminal expansion (even the odd bay) would be so difficult as they are very built up - Ealing Broadway, Finsbury Park, Elephant, Richmond, Wimbledon, West Hampstead, Denmark Hill perhaps ...and now Abbey Wood.

I do think once the additional platforms are built, East Croydon might be able to act as a small terminus for certain services from the South. Gatwick too. Both are busy enough hubs to ensure people would disperse onto various services, rather than all heading to the same train, which would defeat the purpose.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Ideally a rebuild would allow an extra platform - we are only talking 2-4tph shuttles to augment the network here.

Thinking now, all of the likely candidates are such that any terminal expansion (even the odd bay) would be so difficult as they are very built up - Ealing Broadway, Finsbury Park, Elephant, Richmond, Wimbledon, West Hampstead, Denmark Hill perhaps ...and now Abbey Wood.

I do think once the additional platforms are built, East Croydon might be able to act as a small terminus for certain services from the South. Gatwick too. Both are busy enough hubs to ensure people would disperse onto various services, rather than all heading to the same train, which would defeat the purpose.

E&C I imagine would be difficult to add extra platforms, that said I do think more SE Thameslink routes should be routed there, leaving South Central Thameslink routes to London Bridge.

West Hampstead would be good, I think Woolwich Arsenal would be a possibility if you were willing to add an additional platform into the Car Park, Blackheath you could reopen the third platform on the London Side.

The time has come for such things to happen in London since we can only build so many Cross london routes.

 

[MikeWh]

The track bed would remain and for such a service only one platform would be used at any time leaving the freight to use platform 1

So let's get this straight. You're all for providing interchange possibilities and Lewisham is a key interchange for the DLR. So you're going to have trains from Hayes, Sidcup and Orpington all terminate in platform2. So that's probably 6 trains an hour turning round. How long does a 10/12 car train need for the driver to get from one end to the other and ready it for the next service? You'd have to widen the platform quite a bit or they'll be fighting past all the commuters coming from the back end. 10 minutes isn't enough, especially as the curves leading to platforms 1/2 would require very slow movement.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So let's get this straight. You're all for providing interchange possibilities and Lewisham is a key interchange for the DLR. So you're going to have trains from Hayes, Sidcup and Orpington all terminate in platform2. So that's probably 6 trains an hour turning round. How long does a 10/12 car train need for the driver to get from one end to the other and ready it for the next service? You'd have to widen the platform quite a bit or they'll be fighting past all the commuters coming from the back end. 10 minutes isn't enough, especially as the curves leading to platforms 1/2 would require very slow movement.

As I said it’s pie in the sky, and obviously not a good idea either, I’m just thinking of ways you could sort Lewisham out, sadly the possibilities of building a new platform is now impossible thanks to the badly placed skyscrapers right next To Lewisham station.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

In my youth there was an hourly Charing Cross to Ramsgate service, fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal, then fast to Dartford and then fast to Gravesend before calling at all stations to Ramsgate. Later on there were peak hour services that ran fast from Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street in the morning and the reverse in the evening. Journey time was 15 minutes. One of the morning trains started from Sheerness which had a headcode of 95 and an early Saturday morning service started from Dover Marine running fast from Woolwich Arsenal to London Bridge. How times have changed!

 

[swt_passenger]

If they ever do a proper Abbey Wood rebuild (so stupid to have built it as-is) for the purpose of extending Crossrail to the east...

The change TO the as built layout was intentional so that an extension, either to Ebbsfleet or Gravesend, could be built with completely segregated Crossrail tracks. It was mentioned in one of the route studies IIRC.

 

[cle]

The stupidity I think is the interchange requirement. Having Crossrail as dedicated onwards would not have been precluded by enabling cross transfers and possibly turn backs for either shuttles east or in future, to London Bridge.

 

[NorthKent1989]

In my youth there was an hourly Charing Cross to Ramsgate service, fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal, then fast to Dartford and then fast to Gravesend before calling at all stations to Ramsgate. Later on there were peak hour services that ran fast from Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street in the morning and the reverse in the evening. Journey time was 15 minutes. One of the morning trains started from Sheerness which had a headcode of 95 and an early Saturday morning service started from Dover Marine running fast from Woolwich Arsenal to London Bridge. How times have changed!

London Bridge from Gravesend in just three stops! That’s impressive, unfortunately I never travelled on that sort of fast via Woolwich

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think the time has come that we demand that we return to the old timetable, maybe not straight away but ASAP!

 

[Class465fan]

I would be grateful if they introduce a timetable that involves getting rid off thameslink on the north Kent route.