Last call for the Charing Cross to Gillingham via Woolwich semi fasts

[bramling]

But this is not a universal issue though is it, we all need to be patient.

Yes it is pretty universal north of the river at the moment, on the GN side at least, and the Midland side doesn’t seem immune either. People are finding journeys are taking far longer than advertised, even if using real-time apps, plus some trains are turning up overcrowded or even too full to board when there has been a gap. VTEC have even had to run a special service to bring their staff in obviously most employers /employees aren’t in that uniquely fortunate position.

It’s not simply feasible to be patient - employers won’t accept constant transport issues as an acceptable reason for lateness. In some cases there have been gaps of a number of hours between services at certain destinations. This is bound to be leading to disciplinary action against employees in some cases.

To be honest I’m struggling to see why you find this basic fact of life so hard to understand.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes it is pretty universal north of the river at the moment, on the GN side at least, and the Midland side doesn’t seem immune either. People are finding journeys are taking far longer than advertised, even if using real-time apps, plus some trains are turning up overcrowded or even too full to board when there has been a gap. VTEC have even had to run a special service to bring their staff in obviously most employers /employees aren’t in that uniquely fortunate position.

It’s not simply feasible to be patient - employers won’t accept constant transport issues as an acceptable reason for lateness. In some cases there have been gaps of a number of hours between services at certain destinations. This is bound to be leading to disciplinary action against employees in some cases.

To be honest I’m struggling to see why you find this basic fact of life so hard to understand.

There haven’t been reports of people being fired from their jobs though as @Clip pointed out to @NorthKent1989 earlier, it’s I admit it’s a little bit unfortunate but the bigger picture must be seen here, as far as I’m concerned people in the Medway need to suck it up and accept Thameslink it’s only 10-15 min increase it’s not that long in the grand scheme of things.

There is nothing wrong with the timetable, I think you and others on here mainly the !Medway crew are so determined to see all the wrongs and failings your looking at things in tunnel vision, Peterborough have received better services today and that’s good.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Perhaps this thread should close, it’s straying too far from the original content and certain members are being patronising.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is nothing wrong with the timetable, I think you and others on here mainly the !Medway crew are so determined to see all the wrongs and failings your looking at things in tunnel vision, Peterborough have received better services today and that’s good.

Nothing wrong?!?!?!? Did you by any chance miss the earlier posts in which it was pointed out that the new timetable has given a worse service to just about the entire line through Greenwich and Woolwich, with slower journeys, the regular schedule gone, and longer gaps between trains at many of the stations? And that, further, the introduction of the fast Sidcup line trains has lead to 20-minute gaps between trains at Lee, Mottingham and Albany Park. Quite simply, as a result of the new timetable, quite a few stations in London have lost their turn-up-and-go frequencies. Do you really believe that counts as 'nothing wrong with the timetable'? And that is of course in addition to the problem of longer journeys to the Woolwich line from all the main stations between Greenhithe and Medway just at the time when demand for those journeys is likely to grow massively because of the arrival of Crossrail.

And bear in mind those problems with the new timetable have nothing to do with the current meltdown of services (absolutely awful though that is) and everything to do with the new timetable - even if it ran perfectly - being far more inconvenient than the old timetable to large numbers of people in London as well as in Medway. Sure, there are a few advantages to the new timetable, such as better services at New Eltham and Sidcup, but that doesn't seem remotely enough to outweigh the disadvantages of it.

Perhaps this thread should close, it’s straying too far from the original content and certain members are being patronising.

Looks reasonably on-topic to me. The thread was about the withdrawal of the fast CHX-Gillingham trains (and therefore implicitly, the new timetable in which those trains have been replaced by Thameslink trains) and that is exactly what the discussion is about.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Nothing wrong?!?!?!? Did you by any chance miss the earlier posts in which it was pointed out that the new timetable has given a worse service to just about the entire line through Greenwich and Woolwich, with slower journeys, the regular schedule gone, and longer gaps between trains at many of the stations? And that, further, the introduction of the fast Sidcup line trains has lead to 20-minute gaps between trains at Lee, Mottingham and Albany Park. Quite simply, as a result of the new timetable, quite a few stations in London have lost their turn-up-and-go frequencies. Do you really believe that counts as 'nothing wrong with the timetable'? And that is of course in addition to the problem of longer journeys to the Woolwich line from all the main stations between Greenhithe and Medway just at the time when demand for those journeys is likely to grow massively because of the arrival of Crossrail.

And bear in mind those problems with the new timetable have nothing to do with the current meltdown of services (absolutely awful though that is) and everything to do with the new timetable - even if it ran perfectly - being far more inconvenient than the old timetable to large numbers of people in London as well as in Medway. Sure, there are a few advantages to the new timetable, such as better services at New Eltham and Sidcup, but that doesn't seem remotely enough to outweigh the disadvantages of it.



Looks reasonably on-topic to me. The thread was about the withdrawal of the fast CHX-Gillingham trains (and therefore implicitly, the new timetable in which those trains have been replaced by Thameslink trains) and that is exactly what the discussion is about.

I agree with your points, however I have accepted that most people don’t care about what how this has affected our journeys or personal lives for that matter

 

[bramling]

There haven’t been reports of people being fired from their jobs though as @Clip pointed out to @NorthKent1989 earlier, it’s I admit it’s a little bit unfortunate but the bigger picture must be seen here, as far as I’m concerned people in the Medway need to suck it up and accept Thameslink it’s only 10-15 min increase it’s not that long in the grand scheme of things.

There is nothing wrong with the timetable, I think you and others on here mainly the !Medway crew are so determined to see all the wrongs and failings your looking at things in tunnel vision, Peterborough have received better services today and that’s good.

If you really think Peterborough has had a better service today then look again. A pretty appalling evening. Walking past my local station there were clearly replacement buses being utilised. Thankfully GN has some non-core services, some temporary and others peak services planned to stay. I can assure you people are very grateful for the existence of these services.

 

[hwl]

If you really think Peterborough has had a better service today then look again. A pretty appalling evening. Walking past my local station there were clearly replacement buses being utilised. Thankfully GN has some non-core services, some temporary and others peak services planned to stay. I can assure you people are very grateful for the existence of these services.

I think the ppm stats will say it has had a better day despite still being appalling (as has most of GTR today with Rainham being the only worse on ppm today).
GTR overall was on 73.8% yesterday and is currently on 80.6% with 3.8% of the theoretical GTR WTT services left to run /finish so this will probably be the best weekday so far under the new timetable.

 

[talldave]

I spotted the new HS 0.5 high speed service between Gravesend and Higham today - a minibus outside Gravesend station. Pathetic, utterly pathetic.

 

[roversfan2001]

Certain posters may wish to try living in the North of England, then return and cry foul about their "appalling" service.

 

[eastwestdivide]

...it’s I admit it’s a little bit unfortunate but the bigger picture must be seen here, as far as I’m concerned people in the Medway need to suck it up and accept Thameslink it’s only 10-15 min increase it’s not that long in the grand scheme of things.
...

Setting aside the current problems, and looking at the planned timetable.
To give some perspective to the the 10-15 mins increase, the old SE semifasts gave an off-peak journey time of ~60 mins Strood-London Bridge, and the new Thameslink services 72 minutes, or a 20% increase in journey time to the first "London" station. (picking Strood as having fewer alternative routes to London than Rochester and further east)
The big unknown factor in all of this discussion is where do people go after they get off the train, and does the changed service pattern help or hinder them? It's not just the train element of the journey, it's the door-to-door.
Does the increased number of destinations from the new TL service (once it's running smoothly) offset the slowdown in the Kent-London element of the journey? I don't think we know.

 

[Daz28]

Setting aside the current problems, and looking at the planned timetable.
To give some perspective to the the 10-15 mins increase, the old SE semifasts gave an off-peak journey time of ~60 mins Strood-London Bridge, and the new Thameslink services 72 minutes, or a 20% increase in journey time to the first "London" station. (picking Strood as having fewer alternative routes to London than Rochester and further east)
The big unknown factor in all of this discussion is where do people go after they get off the train, and does the changed service pattern help or hinder them? It's not just the train element of the journey, it's the door-to-door.
Does the increased number of destinations from the new TL service (once it's running smoothly) offset the slowdown in the Kent-London element of the journey? I don't think we know.

A 20% increase in journey time sounds a lot, but expressed as 12 minutes longer for off-peak journeys it doesn’t seem too bad, particularly when you consider that during the peak (when most people travel) there are still fast options.

 

[eastwestdivide]

A 20% increase in journey time sounds a lot, but expressed as 12 minutes longer for off-peak journeys it doesn’t seem too bad, particularly when you consider that during the peak (when most people travel) there are still fast options.

Fair point about the peak, but after all, the thread title is "Last call for the Charing Cross to Gillingham via Woolwich semi fasts", which were very much off-peak services.

 

[NorthKent1989]

On a lighter note.

Best looking station building on the line?

My favourites have to be the old Woolwich Arsenal building before its demolition in the early 1990s

Greenwich is another one, and should be grade listed in my opinion, Lewisham was nice but now the area around it looks a like a haphazardly built Lego Canary Wharf

 

[Mikey C]

On a lighter note.

Best looking station building on the line?

My favourites have to be the old Woolwich Arsenal building before its demolition in the early 1990s

Greenwich is another one, and should be grade listed in my opinion, Lewisham was nice but now the area around it looks a like a haphazardly built Lego Canary Wharf

It was incredibly lucky that Greenwich had space for the DLR lines without having to be mangled!

 

[NorthKent1989]

It was incredibly lucky that Greenwich had space for the DLR lines without having to be mangled!

Yes back then it did, not sure now with all the new buildings there now though! I forgot to mention Blackheath, I loved the hidden platform

 

[NorthKent1989]

An announcement at Cannon Street from 1990 Gillingham semi fast via Greenwich

Woolwich Arsenal in just three stops! You’ll never get this again even if the semi fasts are reintroduced.

 

[cle]

The stats did prove that the Sidcup route is the quietest of the three - so in that regard, for pathing, perhaps the fast should run that way. As the other routes demand a higher metro frequency.

But then, that metro frequency should be delivered the right way and I don’t think the Rainham is the right supplement. Swap it with the slow Gravesend and done.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If it was me, I'd keep the 6tph via Sidcup, but have them all as stoppers, running at regular 10-minute intervals, as that seems the best way to provide a good service to all stations on that route.

As for the Rainham trains, I think we need to be realistic that people at Medway and Gravesend have much faster ways to get into a central London terminus, so in the future, the main advantage for most people of the London-Dartford-Medway trains is going to be the connection to Crossrail at Abbey Wood - which may give quicker or more convenient journeys for people whose final destination is along the Crossrail route. Accordingly, I'd have the trains that run beyond Dartford be: Extend the half-hourly Cannon Street-Woolwich-Dartford train to Gravesend as an all stops, and reinstate the CHX-Woolwich-Gillingham train as the fast one. So Bexleyheath and Sidcup line trains would generally not run beyond Dartford.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Another old announcement from 1988 this time, nice to hear these more informative less generic announcements

 

[cle]

If it was me, I'd keep the 6tph via Sidcup, but have them all as stoppers, running at regular 10-minute intervals, as that seems the best way to provide a good service to all stations on that route.

As for the Rainham trains, I think we need to be realistic that people at Medway and Gravesend have much faster ways to get into a central London terminus, so in the future, the main advantage for most people of the London-Dartford-Medway trains is going to be the connection to Crossrail at Abbey Wood - which may give quicker or more convenient journeys for people whose final destination is along the Crossrail route. Accordingly, I'd have the trains that run beyond Dartford be: Extend the half-hourly Cannon Street-Woolwich-Dartford train to Gravesend as an all stops, and reinstate the CHX-Woolwich-Gillingham train as the fast one. So Bexleyheath and Sidcup line trains would generally not run beyond Dartford.

HS1 stopping at Higham would be a start, as then there would be 4tph connections to Abbey Wood (via Gravesend) - I have a feeling that once Crossrail opens, patterns will change. The inner stations may need more service - so possibly the Rainham could begin from CS/CX, stopping until Woolwich Arsenal, and then as per the old fast pattern.

 

[The Box Photter]

If it was me, I'd keep the 6tph via Sidcup, but have them all as stoppers, running at regular 10-minute intervals, as that seems the best way to provide a good service to all stations on that route.

As for the Rainham trains, I think we need to be realistic that people at Medway and Gravesend have much faster ways to get into a central London terminus, so in the future, the main advantage for most people of the London-Dartford-Medway trains is going to be the connection to Crossrail at Abbey Wood - which may give quicker or more convenient journeys for people whose final destination is along the Crossrail route. Accordingly, I'd have the trains that run beyond Dartford be: Extend the half-hourly Cannon Street-Woolwich-Dartford train to Gravesend as an all stops, and reinstate the CHX-Woolwich-Gillingham train as the fast one. So Bexleyheath and Sidcup line trains would generally not run beyond Dartford.

So their options are:

1. Pay more on HS1 or,
2. Wait for Crossrail (and then don't have a drink because the Crossrail trains have no toilets).

You're not really selling it as an upgrade. I hope you don't plan a career in advertising or PR.

 

[frodshamfella]

Certain posters may wish to try living in the North of England, then return and cry foul about their "appalling" service.

How true , my local stations give me one per hour at best, standing is very common.

 

[Daz28]

HS1 stopping at Higham would be a start, as then there would be 4tph connections to Abbey Wood (via Gravesend)

Higham has less than 500 passengers per day. I don’t think a 4tph service is justified.

 

[Ianno87]

So their options are:

1. Pay more on HS1 or,
2. Wait for Crossrail (and then don't have a drink because the Crossrail trains have no toilets).

You're not really selling it as an upgrade. I hope you don't plan a career in advertising or PR.

Abbey Wood station has toilets to use whilst changing. As does the train to Abbey Wood. Once you're on Crossrail then it's not long to where you're going anyway (except for Heathrow, admittedly)

 

[cle]

There is an obsession on this board with toilets, what happened to going before you leave work/home?

If Higham is not that well used, then 2tph to London slow and a connection to Crossrail should be enough. Temporarily a HS1 easement (and call) for there and Strood might be a good olive branch.

 

[Daz28]

If Higham is not that well used, then 2tph to London slow and a connection to Crossrail should be enough. Temporarily a HS1 easement (and call) for there and Strood might be a good olive branch.

Temporarily they have half that, ticket acceptance is in place via HS1, but trains aren’t stopping at Higham.

 

[talldave]

Temporarily they have half that, ticket acceptance is in place via HS1, but trains aren’t stopping at Higham.

They get a minibus from Gravesend!

 

[The Box Photter]

There is an obsession on this board with toilets, what happened to going before you leave work/home?

If Higham is not that well used, then 2tph to London slow and a connection to Crossrail should be enough. Temporarily a HS1 easement (and call) for there and Strood might be a good olive branch.

I'm assuming you're volunteering to carry out the thorough clean of the 345s as they arrive on depot after the late-night Thursday and Friday trains. I also assume that you've never had the pleasure of a late Friday night northbound Class 319 with locked toilets on Thameslink where urinally-challenged passengers of all genders were using the gangway connections between carriages as alternative facilities.

Not everyone has a bladder the size of a bin-bag.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The thing that has to be understood about the Rainham service is that it's going to help thousands of commuters along the line long term, including at the "minor stations"

Thousands of homes are expected and that means more commuters, Slade Green have new homes being built, you cant expect a Medway train to.just sail by whilst a large number of commuters are left on the platform, that's just unreasonable and selfish.

In the long run Thameslink will work, the planners picked Greenwich as the vest route because of few conflicting moves barring North Kent Junction but I doubt there will be any lasting problems there, when the Rainham service has run its been reported as fine.

Folks in Medway may not want Hampstead but someone in Plumstead may do, so don't be selfish you can't take this service away as it will mean Plumstead and Slade Green will be downgraded back to 6tph and these stations are worthy of 8tph.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The thing that has to be understood about the Rainham service is that it's going to help thousands of commuters along the line long term, including at the "minor stations"

Thousands of homes are expected and that means more commuters, Slade Green have new homes being built, you cant expect a Medway train to.just sail by whilst a large number of commuters are left on the platform, that's just unreasonable and selfish.

Would you be willing to address the point that, as a result of the new Thameslink service, Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith have all lost their regular 10-minute (almost) turn-up-and-go service. Belvedere and Erith both have roughly the same passenger numbers as Slade Green (actually, slightly higher!). And Slade Green hasn't massively benefited in frequency: It's gone from a train every 10 minutes to London via Woolwich to a train every 10 minutes plus two extra trains each hour. The only thing I will give you is that going from 2tph to 4tph to Dartford is probably useful.

I can't see that the likelihood of new homes being built at some point within the next 10 years or so is particularly relevant to what the service pattern should be today. Besides, if my memory of the Bexley plans is correct, Belvedere will see more new homes than Slade Green will.

Folks in Medway may not want Hampstead but someone in Plumstead may do, so don't be selfish you can't take this service away as it will mean Plumstead and Slade Green will be downgraded back to 6tph and these stations are worthy of 8tph.

Anyone along that line who wants places like West Hampstead (and lives too far in for Crossrail to be useful) can simply change at London Bridge, which gives step free access, not far to walk, and a turn-up-and-go frequency. I can see that a direct service has benefits for the small proportion of people who really wouldn't want to change, and who would be willing to wait up to 30 minutes for a train in order to avoid changing (although changing to Thameslink at London Bridge really isn't hard), but that has to be offset against the loss of the simplicity of a regular fixed-interval service pattern for the majority of passengers, as well as the greater potential for disruption to spread through the network when you start mixing up trains going to different destinations.