Late LNR service 21/05/2022 from Milton Keynes to Euston after concert

[Doctor Fegg]

Maybe there's a need to create a statutory obligation for event organisers to properly consider transport to and from.

That should be something that the licensing authority (Milton Keynes Council) can require as part of granting an events licence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That should be something that the licensing authority (Milton Keynes Council) can require as part of granting an events licence.

It's not overly surprising that this is a bit weak - in my experience MK Council don't really give a monkey's about non-car transport aside from the occasional pet project of a specific Councillor (i.e. MK Connect). They generally just let Arriva get on with it, and as Arriva are the least innovative of the big groups that generally just means mediocrity.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So I was there, and thankfully I already had decided that transport would likely be a nightmare because of the location of the stadium so booked a direct coach from Bristol. Based on what I've read since that was a very sensible decision based on how other transport faired! Though it does sound like the same coach company had issues getting to London and dumped people in a random part of Tower Hamlets rather than actually by the O2 where they should have gone to!

It is worth saying that this concert did have an early start - the doors were open at 4pm and the first band was on at 5.30pm. My understanding is that curfew was always supposed to be 22.45 and whilst it did run late, it still was done by 22.50 from what I remember. Of course you then have to account for the time taken to exist the stadium which would have taken 5 or ten mins, maybe more if you were standing and then the walk from the stadium to Bletchley (or the taxi / shuttle bus to MK central if you were lucky enough to actually get that - based on what I've read taxi's were a massive issue with prebooked ones not turning up etc, and the lack of mobile signal at the stadium wouldn't have helped).

No shortage of hotel rooms in Milton Keynes already.

Very much a shortage of those within an easy walk to the stadium though (and as I've said above, getting from there into central MK was "interesting" lets say).

The same issues with public transport are always in the local media after a concert at the stadium. The promoters need to be forced to provide buses to MKC and work with the train companies to understand what is/ is not possible service wise.

To be fair they did do that, but from all accounts unless you got there VERY quick, the queues for those buses were pretty long. I don't blame anyone who decided to walk to Bletchley instead!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is worth saying that this concert did have an early start - the doors were open at 4pm and the first band was on at 5.30pm. My understanding is that curfew was always supposed to be 22.45 and whilst it did run late, it still was done by 22.50. Of course you then have to account for the time taken to exist the stadium which would have taken 5 or ten mins, maybe more if you were standing and then the walk from the stadium to Bletchley (or the taxi / shuttle bus to MK central if you were lucky enough to actually get that - based on what I've read taxi's were a massive issue with prebooked ones not turning up etc, and the lack of mobile signal at the stadium wouldn't have helped).

There isn't a known issue with signal at the stadium, it's always been fine when I've gone there. Which network out of interest? The Bowl always had a mobile phone problem because of the issue with there being 70K mobile phones in an area (Furzton) that has a population of a couple of thousand normally, but the Stadium is normally used for crowds!

Bowl events on weekends typically were doors at 2ish and first band about 4 - the Stadium could as easily do that. Maybe not on the Thursday night, but having seen a friend's photos from that it was nowhere near sold out - maybe about 50% of standing capacity. I suspect Thursday was mostly locals.

Prebooked taxis are not really a thing anywhere; all it means is that you've got a booking in the system which they'll allocate to a driver if they have one based on the current waiting time-ish. People do need to better understand what prebooking a taxi actually means.

To be fair they did do that, but from all accounts unless you got there VERY quick, the queues for those buses were pretty long. I don't blame anyone who decided to walk to Bletchley instead!

It will never be easy or quick to move 20K people. It does take time. Which is why an earlier finish would be prudent. It's not like kicking out a nightclub with a few hundred, while the other events there which draw that sort of crowd (the actual football) are generally in the afternoon on a weekend and so there's plenty of time to clear it out in a more leisurely way without last trains being missed. Realistically the event probably needs to end about two hours before the last public transport to main destinations to give chance to clear it slowly and safely.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There isn't a known issue with signal at the stadium, it's always been fine when I've gone there. Which network out of interest? The Bowl always had a mobile phone problem because of the issue with there being 70K mobile phones in an area (Furzton) that has a population of a couple of thousand normally, but the Stadium is normally used for crowds!

Signal strength itself seemed fine but data just wasn't really happening. Enough to maybe get a WhatsApp message sent or send a Tweet but good luck actually looking at your Twitter feed or looking up train times etc. Seemed to be across all networks. Certainly both my EE and O2 sim's were acting in the same way, as was my partners Giffgaff sim. And the comments on social media seemed to confirm that too. I suspect it is just the sheer number of people trying to use data. MK Dons get no where near that number of being at their games most of the time (their average this year was about 9k I believe, this was at least double if not probably triple that number), and as far as I am aware the stadium hasn't actually held many gigs of a similar size before anyway (I think the 3 MCR gigs this weekend would have been gigs 5, 6 and 7 that the stadium has held). Switching down to 3G did help at times (I guess just less people using that particular part of the network - same trick I've used at football matches before) but there were points of the evening where you just couldn't do anything that relied on data regardless of what you did (and I wouldn't expect "normal" people to have the know how or even have the idea to switch down to 3G to try to get data!).

Prebooked taxis are not really a thing anywhere; all it means is that you've got a booking in the system which they'll allocate to a driver if they have one based on the current waiting time-ish. People do need to better understand what prebooking a taxi actually means.

That certainly isn't my experience but saying that I have only used prebooked taxi's in more rural areas before where its more like one man band kind of deals so there aren't really drivers to allocate! I know Uber and other ride sharing apps that appear to offer prebooking do operate like you described though so I wouldn't be surprised if a degree of that does go on with regular firms too. But if so they should be absolutely clear about that (which I suspect they aren't being).

It will never be easy or quick to move 20K people. It does take time. Which is why an earlier finish would be prudent.

True. But if you are someone who is travelling I don't think it is unreasonable to see there's a train due at 23.50 from a station just half hour walk away and plan to get that.
I do agree the organisers should have done better though, not just with the timings but with the general logistics (it did feel a little chaotic there in some regards lets say - again probably because they haven't actually held many similar events before). Though I also feel the railways should have planned better too. They were able to magic up an additional service in the end so why wasn't that just planned for beforehand anyway? As someone else has mentioned it does look like GWR have put plans in place for some things in Cardiff on the 28th, so why couldn't the ToC here have done the same?

Missing the end of a concert to get home by train is nothing new, I still remember missing all the Genesis encores at their Abacab concert at the NEC December 1981......

To be fair, there is missing the end of the concert and missing so much you may aswell not have gone. You say about missing the encore - if someone had left before the encore they may have managed to get the 23.03 if they were lucky, but probably would have actually just ended up waiting around for 50 minutes at the station and getting on the same 23.50 service they would have been aiming for had they stayed till the very end of the concert.

 

[Craig1122]

Interesting from Great Western:

GWR to provide 40 trains for fans heading home from Ed Sheeran concerts

Great Western Railway will provide 40 trains and nearly 20,000 seats for music fans leaving Cardiff following this week’s Ed Sheeran concerts.

news.gwr.com

Principality stadium is of course centrally located so doesn't face the additional challenge of getting people to stations. This is similar to the additional services provided by South West Trains for concerts at Twickenham which at one time saw services every 10 minutes to Waterloo until 0130. Actually over kill as the crowds were pretty much cleared an hour before that!

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I have just discovered that MCR are playing in Munich on Monday 6th June,.

I am there for the England Germany match on the 7th

Now seriously considering trying to get a ticket and reporting back on the difference in organisational ability!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Trains for concerts at Twickenham which at one time saw services every 10 minutes to Waterloo until 0130. Actually over kill as the crowds were pretty much cleared an hour before that!

Better than the other way round, and having many hundreds of intending passengers still rocking up as the final trains in service are about to depart, or indeed afterwards!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Interesting from Great Western:

GWR to provide 40 trains for fans heading home from Ed Sheeran concerts

Great Western Railway will provide 40 trains and nearly 20,000 seats for music fans leaving Cardiff following this week’s Ed Sheeran concerts.

news.gwr.com

Principality stadium is of course centrally located so doesn't face the additional challenge of getting people to stations.

Of course the stadium being right next to the train station does given its own problems, but obviously GWR and TfW (formally ATW) have had years of regular experience with it!
I do hope anyone planning to see MCR in Cardiff knows about the Ed Sheeran concert too though, because that could well throw any potential plans out of the window (as the stadium is so close, anyone coming from the MCR concert at Sofia Gardens will likely end up at the end of the queues).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Signal strength itself seemed fine but data just wasn't really happening. Enough to maybe get a WhatsApp message sent or send a Tweet but good luck actually looking at your Twitter feed or looking up train times etc. Seemed to be across all networks. Certainly both my EE and O2 sim's were acting in the same way, as was my partners Giffgaff sim. And the comments on social media seemed to confirm that too. I suspect it is just the sheer number of people trying to use data. MK Dons get no where near that number of being at their games most of the time (their average this year was about 9k I believe, this was at least double if not probably triple that number), and as far as I am aware the stadium hasn't actually held many gigs of a similar size before anyway (I think the 3 MCR gigs this weekend would have been gigs 5, 6 and 7 that the stadium has held). Switching down to 3G did help at times (I guess just less people using that particular part of the network - same trick I've used at football matches before) but there were points of the evening where you just couldn't do anything that relied on data regardless of what you did (and I wouldn't expect "normal" people to have the know how or even have the idea to switch down to 3G to try to get data!).

Thanks. Interestingly for the Bowl in recent(ish) years they have brought in mobile cell masts to up the capacity. The last Bowl gig I went to was Pearl Jam and I'm fairly sure my phone worked for that - before it was decidedly hit and miss (also affecting me living in Furzton at the time as it's the same mast).

That certainly isn't my experience but saying that I have only used prebooked taxi's in more rural areas before where its more like one man band kind of deals so there aren't really drivers to allocate! I know Uber and other ride sharing apps that appear to offer prebooking do operate like you described though so I wouldn't be surprised if a degree of that does go on with regular firms too. But if so they should be absolutely clear about that (which I suspect they aren't being).

All the MK taxi companies do it like that, as they all run from Uber-like apps. You could always tell when you had had a car allocated before the apps as you'd get a text with its registration number. The only time I ever got that in advance of an "advance booked" taxi was if it was allocated the night before for a 4am airport run, which does make a bit of sense.

If you book a one-man-band rural taxi they would obviously block their time out for you, but urban "minicab" operators more or less never do. I guess you'd probably have to live in a city to understand that.

True. But if you are someone who is travelling I don't think it is unreasonable to see there's a train due at 23.50 from a station just half hour walk away and plan to get that.

In theory, but I would be wary of last trains when I knew there was going to be a huge demand. It was only really a problem because MCR didn't play London (a rather silly decision which I guess they won't do again). I think some US bands do have this idea that MK is London because things in the UK are much closer together than the US. Had they played a London gig, any MK one (which you do still get) would have had people coming from a far wider set of places and wouldn't have had so much of an issue.

Though I also feel the railways should have planned better too. They were able to magic up an additional service in the end so why wasn't that just planned for beforehand anyway? As someone else has mentioned it does look like GWR have put plans in place for some things in Cardiff on the 28th, so why couldn't the ToC here have done the same?

Perhaps the promoters didn't tell them about it and did tell GWR?

To be fair, there is missing the end of the concert and missing so much you may aswell not have gone.

Only time I've done that was a midweek gig at the Birmingham O2 which I had to leave at about 2255 to get the 2310 south, missed the last couple of songs I reckon though did get some of the encore. If it wasn't midweek I'd have stayed over.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps the promoters didn't tell them about it and did tell GWR?

Whilst collaboration with promoters always helps, TOCs should and do look out for events. They will also see much higher than usual levels of ticket sales and should be able to put 2+2 together.

Of course it's entirely possible that WMT identified this event, but concluded they weren't in a position to run additional services. That could be down to a lack of traincrew willing to volunteer to work a rest day, or the DfT refusing to sign off on the additional expense. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I do hope anyone planning to see MCR in Cardiff knows about the Ed Sheeran concert too though, because that could well throw any potential plans out of the window (as the stadium is so close, anyone coming from the MCR concert at Sofia Gardens will likely end up at the end of the queues).

I would imagine that the attendees of each concert frequent rather different universes so they probably aren't aware !!!

 

[gazzaa2]

MK has huge, huge numbers of hotel rooms due to business demand. I think those who thought planning to take that train was sensible probably need their head examining.

On the other hand, with these gigs well known about, that LNR didn't get another unit out and make it a 12 car is very, very poor.

That seemed to be a main complaint that the Northampton train was 12 cars and left near empty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That seemed to be a main complaint that the Northampton train was 12 cars and left near empty.

It almost certainly needed 12 nearer London, but LNR are hardly short of units so sorting out an extension of the last southbound would hardly have been that much of an issue.

 

[peteb]

Not sure why big concerts always seem to be put on mid-evening with bands not on stage till 9pm sometimes. I know early finishes are not very rock 'n roll but they seem to do as well in the US.....

 

[Falcon1200]

I still remember missing all the Genesis encores at their Abacab concert at the NEC December 1981......

But at least you've got over it now.....

 

[peteb]

But at least you've got over it now.....

Just about......

 

[joncombe]

Regardless as to what planning (or not) went on, if passengers got to the station in time for the last train and were unable to board as it was overcrowded, wouldn't the National Conditions still apply. I.E. they were unable to board, so should be accommodated on later trains or if not possible, alternative transport or overnight hotels? In much the same way you can apply for delay repay if you were delayed due being unable to board the train and having to wait for the next train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regardless as to what planning (or not) went on, if passengers got to the station in time for the last train and were unable to board as it was overcrowded, wouldn't the National Conditions still apply. I.E. they were unable to board, so should be accommodated on later trains or if not possible, alternative transport or overnight hotels? In much the same way you can apply for delay repay if you were delayed due being unable to board the train and having to wait for the next train?

Theoretically yes, but Bletchley has no customer facing staff at night (other than a security guard as an anti-suicide measure and because the building can't be locked as it's the only way onto the platforms) so it'd be a case of paying yourself and attempting to recover it later.

 

[joncombe]

Theoretically yes, but Bletchley has no customer facing staff at night (other than a security guard as an anti-suicide measure and because the building can't be locked as it's the only way onto the platforms) so it'd be a case of paying yourself and attempting to recover it later.

Help point? The only time I got stranded after a train cancellation which made me miss the last connection home, I used the help point and a taxi was arranged. I'd be surprised if Bletchley doesn't have a help point? Although I suppose it's possible it just directs to NRE after a certain time? (who I doubt would be much help)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Help point? The only time I got stranded after a train cancellation which made me miss the last connection home, I used the help point and a taxi was arranged. I'd be surprised if Bletchley doesn't have a help point? Although I suppose it's possible it just directs to NRE after a certain time? (who I doubt would be much help)

It does have one on each platform but I neither know if it works nor who it connects to. I've not had great experiences with using these in the past, normally they seemed to go to call centres in far away lands.

It's probably worth noting MKC would be no better - that's security staff only* after 2200 as well.

* Maybe an Avanti dispatcher, I forget, but I suspect they would hide and not get involved with the baying mob. LNR guards self-dispatch.

 

[30907]

I have just discovered that MCR are playing in Munich on Monday 6th June,.

I am there for the England Germany match on the 7th

Now seriously considering trying to get a ticket and reporting back on the difference in organisational ability!

It will be interesting. Plenty of complaints in Germany about local public transport failing to cope - if the PTE equivalent doesn't specify the extra train/coaches, it doesn't run (allegedly).

OTOH, for a really big national event, because of the way funding is allocated, the regional organisation is able to pull out the stops (my experience is of the Protestant Kirchentag, where rolling stock gets moved round the country or dug out of sidings).

PS and still OT - my SM feed has just reminded me of 2017, where provision for the final day involving travel from Berlin to Lutherstadt Wittenberg (clue there) was definitely overkill.

 

[DelayRepay]

Help point? The only time I got stranded after a train cancellation which made me miss the last connection home, I used the help point and a taxi was arranged. I'd be surprised if Bletchley doesn't have a help point? Although I suppose it's possible it just directs to NRE after a certain time? (who I doubt would be much help)

Problem is there were no taxis available, according to some of the complaints on Twitter. So even if the TOC wanted to help, getting taxis would not have been an option (certainly not enough taxis to shift the crowds). Presumably all they would have been able to do was advise that LNWR were trying to arrange an extra train.

 

[6Gman]

No, if anything I'm saying the event organisers are irresponsible for timing their event such that it ends when there is only one train back - and the timetable set for ~26 weeks is published and available.

If they'd started their event an hour earlier it wouldn't have been an issue.

Expecting a TOC to conjure up extra trains on a Saturday evening is unreasonable - the train crew will likely be working overtime - so who picks up the bill? Perhaps the concert organisers should charter trains and coaches and foot the bill for those ?

The local council (as the licensing authority for public entertainment licences) should have a Safety Advisory Group (SAG) in place to ensure public safety at such events. Their remit extends to access/egress issues and the relevant transport providers SHOULD (should) have been involved.

 

[Class 170101]

Principality stadium is of course centrally located so doesn't face the additional challenge of getting people to stations. This is similar to the additional services provided by South West Trains for concerts at Twickenham which at one time saw services every 10 minutes to Waterloo until 0130. Actually over kill as the crowds were pretty much cleared an hour before that!

Always better to over provide than to under provide. Also to under promise and over deliver rather than the other way round which our politicans seem to manage quite regularly.

In terms of mobile phone coverage I would expect all the networks to struggle around stadiums and event areas simply because the masts aren't powerful enough and never will be without serious expense which operators won't provide. Even a 10,000 seater stadium I've been too has had issues on Boxing Day.

 

[mrmartin]

Had a similar catastrophe seeing Rammstein in MK a few years back. All it would take is another fairly long train being scheduled at some point later/before to turn it from a complete disaster to a fairly crowded but perfectly fine experience. It doesn't seem that difficult IMO for LNR to keep an eye on events at the stadium and schedule an extra train when they are on?! I'm not suggesting the railway needs to put a convoy of thousands of additional trains and shuttles, but just add _one_ extra service occassionally.

I guess the TOC doesn't care though - everyone will buy open returns and if they are stranded they still get their money, and I doubt many people actually delay repay (plus absolutely 0 hotels/taxis available to put people up in!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had a similar catastrophe seeing Rammstein in MK a few years back. All it would take is another fairly long train being scheduled at some point later/before to turn it from a complete disaster to a fairly crowded but perfectly fine experience. It doesn't seem that difficult IMO for LNR to keep an eye on events at the stadium and schedule an extra train when they are on?! I'm not suggesting the railway needs to put a convoy of thousands of additional trains and shuttles, but just add _one_ extra service occassionally.

Looking at the level of crowding on the train pictured in the reports and based on experience of 12 to 8 short-forms, just an extra 4 coaches on that (12 vice 8) would probably have done the job fine.

 

[TC7]

MCR are playing in Warrington this Friday, it will be interesting to see how northern copes with getting everyone back to Liverpool or Manchester after that concert, especially given how LNWR fared.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MCR are playing in Warrington this Friday, it will be interesting to see how northern copes with getting everyone back to Liverpool or Manchester after that concert, especially given how LNWR fared.

I suspect people will think "2-car, let's drive". Londoners are more expecting of the railway delivering enough capacity as the Tube normally does, and car ownership in the younger demographics in the North West will be higher.

 

[DJ_K666]

I had the same thing at Birmingham NEC, or the Resorts World bit. 7 minutes to reach the station for the last train, err no way. I drove instead and I'm glad I did. The last train south is at 2307 and I was still inside the arena doors at 2305. I'd imagine MKC to be worse as the National Bowl is even further away.

Contrast that with the Welsh rugby specials back in 2002 when we got 37s and mk2s to enjoy (I was lucky enough to get a mk1 on the return journey) and Cardiff vaguely resembled the 80s for the day. Shows it CAN be done.