Late LNR service 21/05/2022 from Milton Keynes to Euston after concert

[DJS76]

Slightly off topic but also linked, I'm going to the Liam Gallagher gig at Knebworth in a few weeks and they're advising people NOT to travel by train as there will be no late trains after the gig. Trains from Stevenage do run fairly late but its still a fair walk from the venue to the station, could be many people stranded in Hertfordshire for the night.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Slightly off topic but also linked, I'm going to the Liam Gallagher gig at Knebworth in a few weeks and they're advising people NOT to travel by train as there will be no late trains after the gig.

Undoubtedly, some will still have bought day return tickets and won't have checked this or indeed realise this until they're leaving the stadium at the end of the concert.

 

[paul1609]

The area around the stadium (and the walking route between it and the Bowl parking) is somewhere between "scabby" and "manky" so you aren't going to get a good impression of MK if you go to an event there, to be fair. This is probably true of out of town faclities in most towns.

Indeed Whilst lost trying to find Milton Keynes Stadium from Bletchley station I happened to chance upon Fenny Stratford Station. In my mind this should have been some idyllic country station surrounded by a village pond fed by a babbling brook with a church with a spire and thatched cottages. It was a bit of a shock to find that it was actually steps off a 1970s Industrial Estate typified by the long since vacant MFI opposite.

Slightly off topic but also linked, I'm going to the Liam Gallagher gig at Knebworth in a few weeks and they're advising people NOT to travel by train as there will be no late trains after the gig. Trains from Stevenage do run fairly late but its still a fair walk from the venue to the station, could be many people stranded in Hertfordshire for the night.

Last time I went to Knebworth was for Oasis it took 4 hours to get out of the car park. If its still the same arrangements the entry to the venue is off Junction 7 of the A1 (M) which is closer to Stevenage than Knebworth Station.

 

[td97]

they're advising people NOT to travel by train

Outrageous when bands claim to be ever more conscious of the environmental impact of touring.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Indeed Whilst lost trying to find Milton Keynes Stadium from Bletchley station I happened to chance upon Fenny Stratford Station. In my mind this should have been some idyllic country station surrounded by a village pond fed by a babbling brook with a church with a spire and thatched cottages. It was a bit of a shock to find that it was actually steps off a 1970s Industrial Estate typified by the long since vacant MFI opposite.

I left MK years ago, and that building is still vacant? I'm surprised it hasn't been attacked by arsonists like the Burger King by the bus station was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I left MK years ago, and that building is still vacant? I'm surprised it hasn't been attacked by arsonists like the Burger King by the bus station was.

Many suspected that to be an insurance job. Though it then reopened...

 

[TUC]

Sympathy is limited - the timetable is pretty clear there are fewer trains towards London than from at that time of night.

And it's not exactly down to LNW to monitor what gigs are on at MK - it's hardly Wembley or the NEC.

What a London-centric comment.

Besides which, being a commercially successful business means that you do monitor where demand is likely to be and adjust what you offer accordingly.

 

[DelayRepay]

Besides which, being a commercially successful business means that you do monitor where demand is likely to be and adjust what you offer accordingly.

Problem is, at the moment, the railways are not a commercially successful business. There's no incentive for them to seek out extra revenue opportunities.

 

[A0wen]

What a London-centric comment.

Besides which, being a commercially successful business means that you do monitor where demand is likely to be and adjust what you offer accordingly.

Riight..... Because pointing out people don't usually want to travel to London after 10pm on a Saturday night is somehow "London centric", as is pointing out that events in MK don't really compare to Wembley or Birmingham's NEC.....

Problem is, at the moment, the railways are not a commercially successful business. There's no incentive for them to seek out extra revenue opportunities.

Except this wasn't about an "extra revenue opportunity" - virtually all the passengers heading to London after that concert wpuld have been on return tickets - so the only thing for LNW to run more trains after 10pm would have been additional cost either of running an extra unit or additional staffing costs to run extra services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except this wasn't about an "extra revenue opportunity" - virtually all the passengers heading to London after that concert wpuld have been on return tickets - so the only thing for LNW to run more trains after 10pm would have been additional cost either of running an extra unit or additional staffing costs to run extra services.

If they stranded people it'd cost them in refunds.

 

[Phil56]

Perhaps the concert organisers should charter trains and coaches and foot the bill for those ?

If the country/industry are serious about climate change, reducing road use/congestion, then the rail industry needs to start being more interested in extra trains/charter trains etc for the big events.

At the FA cup final, the charter train back north from Wembley left on time, despite the game running to extra time/penalties, meaning those booked on the train had the choice of leaving early to catch the train and missing the end or being stranded in London overnight as there were no other trains leaving London for the North West, the last being 8.10 from Euston. If the railways can't even let a charter train be held back until the end of the match it was there purposely for, then there's not really any hope for it.

I'm sure part of that problem is that the lines/stations affected would have had to be left open which could potentially have prevented the overnight blocks etc. That's another thing that needs attention, the early finish of the network, i.e. last Manchester airport trains leaving long before last flight arrivals, last train from Euston to North West at 8.10 etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the country/industry are serious about climate change, reducing road use/congestion, then the rail industry needs to start being more interested in extra trains/charter trains etc for the big events.

But also the big events need to be thinking about transport properly when they make their plans. Which means an earlier finish, perhaps 2130-2200 depending how far to the station. Culture is that music events should go on late, but on Saturdays and Sundays they don't need to because they can start much earlier. That would also benefit locals in making the noise pollution less of an issue. Those who live closer by can always extend the evening afterwards if they want by patronising local pubs and clubs (Pink Punters, the slightly oddly named LGBT+ venue which is also welcoming to straight people, is a fairly short walk away and the only decent club in MK, for instance).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Sympathy is limited - the timetable is pretty clear there are fewer trains towards London than from at that time of night.

And it's not exactly down to LNW to monitor what gigs are on at MK - it's hardly Wembley or the NEC.

It is down to TOCs to know what is going on.

Football, concerts, major protests, you name it. Many companies have a list of known events, have a Train Planning Manager who liaises with venues and discusses the sales of tickets, and then amends timetables and stock accordingly.

This sounds like a failure.

 

[A0wen]

If the country/industry are serious about climate change, reducing road use/congestion, then the rail industry needs to start being more interested in extra trains/charter trains etc for the big events.

Oh please stop peddling this red herring - such events are entirely marginal in terms of the tailpipe pollution they cause. It's getting really tedious that every rail solution seems to be underpinned by "climate emergency" or "modal shift / road use". Charter trains are expensive and running at the margins of the day isn't the answer because that potentially disrupts things like engineering works.

@Bletchleyite is closer to the mark - the responsibility here rests with the event organisers.

And the missed one is if people are *that* bothered by the pollution caused by travel then they should minimise their travel - in other words, not travel from London to MK for a concert.

 

[InTheEastMids]

events in MK don't really compare to Wembley or Birmingham's NEC.....

I'm surprised by the comparison with the NEC as MK stadium has double the capacity, and the Bowl is 4x capacity

BTW my experience of Twickenham is that SWR has a very slick operation to deal with enormous crowds, it's not unreasonable to expect transport utilities to deliver a service proportionate to the size of the event.

an earlier finish, perhaps 2130-2200 depending how far to the station.

I disagree - you're proposing a world where people's social lives and events are organised to be operationally convenient for the railway. The railway exists to serve and enable those things to happen, otherwise it doesn't have a purpose, and leading to this situation

the charter train back north from Wembley left on time, despite the game running to extra time/penalties, meaning those booked on the train had the choice of leaving early to catch the train

... which I find utterly ridiculous. Who - in England - could have imagined that the culmination of a knock-out tournament might go to extra time / penalties?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree - you're proposing a world where people's social lives and events are organised to be operationally convenient for the railway.

It's not about the railway specifically. It's about the fact that if we want to reduce car use, we have to adapt life so it is more amenable to people not having quite the same flexibility to travel, as providing that flexibility (such as trains all night) is disproportionately expensive. There are other aspects, too, such as a need to modify planning laws to discourage "out of town" development in favour of traditional centres which can then be better served by public transport because public transport works best when there are fewer concentrated destinations.

It might for instance have made more sense for Stadium:MK to be built on the "empty grid square" in CMK* near the station than inconveniently half way between CMK and Bletchley as it is.

* Central Milton Keynes, the actual official name for the area which contains the station called Milton Keynes Central, normally referred to as CMK.

 

[A0wen]

It's not about the railway specifically. It's about the fact that if we want to reduce car use, we have to adapt life so it is more amenable to people not having quite the same flexibility to travel, as providing that flexibility (such as trains all night) is disproportionately expensive. There are other aspects, too, such as a need to modify planning laws to discourage "out of town" development in favour of traditional centres which can then be better served by public transport because public transport works best when there are fewer concentrated destinations.

It might for instance have made more sense for Stadium:MK to be built on the "empty grid square" in CMK* near the station than inconveniently half way between CMK and Bletchley as it is.

* Central Milton Keynes, the actual official name for the area which contains the station called Milton Keynes Central, normally referred to as CMK.

(BIB) If you think that retailers are suddenly going to flock back to the high street even with such changes, then you are deluded. High streets don't have the right type of space for modern retailers - particularly older high streets where there are then planning restrictions in terms of what you can do with the units. And the punters won't travel into the town centre to be either ripped off by excessive parking charges or have to travel by bus / train and lug their shopping home - they'll simply migrate to even more shopping on line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(BIB) If you think that retailers are suddenly going to flock back to the high street even with such changes, then you are deluded. High streets don't have the right type of space for modern retailers - particularly older high streets where there are then planning restrictions in terms of what you can do with the units. And the punters won't travel into the town centre to be either ripped off by excessive parking charges or have to travel by bus / train and lug their shopping home - they'll simply migrate to even more shopping on line.

Of course it's of note that the Stadium:MK development and nearby stuff like Asda, Tesco and Ikea plus the retail park opposite is basically a new Bletchley town centre. No reason you couldn't build entirely new town centres of this type and centre public transport networks on them - the key is that they concentrate things together rather than dotting smaller developments around the place.

(I've often said that Bletchley town centre has basically moved to the Stadium:MK development - what's left is just a "local centre" for those living close by who could mostly walk to it - personally I pretty much never go there. There is also lots of blue collar employment nearby. In reality it would make sense to centre the southern MK bus network on the stadium development and just run one or two routes past the traditional town centre calling at the railway station, the 4 and the 5 being the obvious two, and these could call at on-street stops and the bus station site be redeveloped)

 

[roversfan2001]

MCR are playing in Warrington this Friday, it will be interesting to see how northern copes with getting everyone back to Liverpool or Manchester after that concert, especially given how LNWR fared.

Based on my previous experience of attending events at Victoria Park, northern will throw the towel in. My success rate of actually making it home via train from there is less than 50%.

 

[TUC]

So much of this discussion seems to be on the basis that passengers should fit their lives around what is convenient for the railway. Rail only exists for its customers, not the other way round.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So much of this discussion seems to be on the basis that passengers should fit their lives around what is convenient for the railway. Rail only exists for its customers, not the other way round.

If you want a country where the primary means of travel is public transport, cycling and walking, you need to design your geography and economy so it fits with that. It isn't generally economic to run public transport all night, so that means big weekend events need to finish at a time when getting home to nearby locations is still possible without adding a load of extra trains.

You could argue that at present people have to fit their lives around what is convenient for drivers, car manufacturers/garages and petrochemical companies. That's essentially what the whole basis of Milton Keynes was!

 

[WelshBluebird]

There does seem to be a pretty big different in culture between different ToC's about how they handle these kind of things. Some really do put in the effort, whilst some seem like they couldn't care and don't bother at all. Is that a result of the management in place, or are there specific agreements in place for the ones that do it well?

@Bletchleyite is closer to the mark - the responsibility here rests with the event organisers.

Why? Given other ToC's do seem to take some responsibility for similar things, why should it just be the event organisers? It should be everyone who has skin in the game so to speak. Especially as if you are from an area where the ToC does take responsibility for such things, you may travel to a different area with certain expectations!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Given other ToC's do seem to take some responsibility for similar things, why should it just be the event organisers? It should be everyone who has skin in the game so to speak. Especially as if you are from an area where the ToC does take responsibility for such things, you may travel to a different area with certain expectations!

If you go somewhere without researching how you're going to get home, frankly, you're a fool*. Though I bet for the Londoners there was some of that, they just get used to the Tube and night buses just being there.

* Or sometimes just a young person who doesn't care if they have to pop to a shop for some cans and sit up all night with their mates in a park until the first train - but that sort of young person tends not to moan about it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If you go somewhere without researching how you're going to get home, frankly, you're a fool*. Though I bet for the Londoners there was some of that, they just get used to the Tube and night buses just being there.

I suspect most of the people who had issues probably fell into one of the following 3 groups:

• Expecting mobile data to be fine (as it is at Old Trafford, Wembley and the like). Maybe naive, but if other big stadiums can sort it out with mobile networks why can't MK? It isn't just MK either. I've noticed a huge difference up and down the country going to away games with Cardiff. Some stadiums you can stream live video at whilst others you'd be lucky to load a web page. Because of my experience I'm somewhat used to this and plan for it, but someone who has only just been to somewhere that deals with it well like Wemble y(granted because of their links with EE) may well be caught out.
• Expecting prebooked taxis to actually turn up. We've already covered this and maybe its just an expectation thing depending on where you are from - but if I've booked a taxi I'd actually expect it turn up. And on the stadiums website the travel guide specifically calls out prebooking taxis. I suspect others would think the same. A lesson for the future for them maybe.
• Expecting to be able to actually get on the 23.50 train (and for that train to be long enough to deal with the crowds from a very high profile well publicised event). This isn't like the Liam Gallagher gig mentioned above where they were telling people to avoid the train. Infact the stadium very much advertises its rail connections on its website and on the travel guide for the event they mention trains to both MK Central and Bletchley as ways to travel, so if people shouldn't plan to be able to catch late trains from either stadium maybe the stadium needs to update its wording to say don't bank on being able to!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Expecting to be able to actually get on the 23.50 train (and for that train to be long enough to deal with the crowds from a very high profile well publicised event). This isn't like the Liam Gallagher gig mentioned above where they were telling people to avoid the train. Infact the stadium very much advertises its rail connections on its website and on the travel guide for the event they mention trains to both MK Central and Bletchley as ways to travel, so if people shouldn't plan to be able to catch late trains from either stadium maybe the stadium needs to update its wording to say don't bank on being able to!

That's just utterly naive. The stadium has a concert capacity of 35K (roughly half the Bowl). There isn't a train in the world that can take even half of that; a 12-car 350 can take about 1500 crush-loaded.

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's just utterly naive. The stadium has a concert capacity of 35K (roughly half the Bowl). There isn't a train in the world that can take even half of that; a 12-car 350 can take about 1500 crush-loaded.

Then maybe the operators of the stadium should be taking the lead and suggesting people don't rely on the trains for later night events? Again other venues already do this as already mention earlier on by someone else. Instead of having a section on their travel guide calling out MK Central and Bletchley maybe they should have instead had a clear "DO NOT TRAVEL BY TRAIN AS YOU WILL LIKELY NOT BE ABLE TO GET HOME" message?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then maybe the operators of the stadium should be taking the lead and suggesting people don't rely on the trains for later night events? Again other venues already do this as already mention earlier on by someone else.

Not a terrible idea, but in all seriousness people could just take a little responsibility for themselves for once and check their journey and use a bit of common sense that (a) the band aren't playing London, and (b) as a result, a large chunk of 35K people won't fit on one train?

It was only really an issue because the band was not playing London (which was a bad decision on the band's part; if you are only going to play one place in South East England it really should be London because pretty much everyone in the SE has good transport links to it).

 

[dosxuk]

which was a bad decision on the band's part; if you are only going to play one place in South East England it really should be London because pretty much everyone in the SE has good transport links to it

Probably worth pointing out is that the concerts are being organised in the UK by SJM - a major UK based promotions company who are part of Live Nation, another company used to putting on events across the entire UK. This isn't a case of a US band thinking Milton Keynes is part of London, it's UK based organisations making the choice to put the show on there.

 

[Class 170101]

Outrageous when bands claim to be ever more conscious of the environmental impact of touring.

Also assumes that NR will allow trains to run which isn't guaranteed even once all the other issues like drivers and trains are sorted.

 

[mrmartin]

That's just utterly naive. The stadium has a concert capacity of 35K (roughly half the Bowl). There isn't a train in the world that can take even half of that; a 12-car 350 can take about 1500 crush-loaded.

As I said before - the problem is not getting 35k people out of a stadium at midnight. The problem is that there is approx 4-8 cars worth of people being left behind. When I was at a concert with similar (more?) capacity at MK I doubt even 10% of the concertgoers got the train.

For such a major railway like the WCML, off peak, it really should not be rocket science to be able to run a 12 car train when an event is on, or provide another 8 car soon after as a special.

I feel people are missing the point a bit here. It is not that we need to massively reorganise the railway to become a 24/7 operation. We simply need (at most!) one more train to run to avoid hundreds of people enormous inconvience! It's honestly a bit depressing that people are being so defeatist on this. It's off peak, there is stock available, it's a 4 track major railway with 12 car platforms. We need one extra train to run, maximum. Not really rocket science in my opinion.