Leaf Fall

[blue sabre]

Obviously the effects of leaf fall can be reduced by managing lineside vegetation, but is there any railhead treatment that is used to resist/prevent the formation of leaf mulch on the rail?
I ask as this caused havoc on the Tyne and Wear Metro last year, they say they have taken steps to manage lineside vegetation, but I dont see where so is it possible they have treat the railheads too?

 

[DarloRich]

Metro dont have the same sort of kit that NR have for treatment works.

 

[edwin_m]

Railhead treatment doesn't strictly prevent contamination happening but tries to deal with it afterwards. This is either by water jets which aim to blast the contamination off the rail, or by Sandite which leaves (sorry) it in place but tries to make it less slippery.

Not sure if Network Rail's plant would be in gauge for the Metro if they wished to borrow it, or allowed through the city centre tunnels, and I don't think there is a connection between Metro and NR north of the Tyne any longer. Metrocars have magnetic track brakes which are probably still more effective than ordinary brakes in poor adhesion.

 

[DarloRich]

I think Nexus have some kind of abrasive brush fitted to certain vehicles to scrape the leaf waste of the track

 

[507 001]

Don't know whether the MPVs would be in gauge but is imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to allow one through the tunnels during closure hours.

If nexus have the same policy as we do re. Track brakes then they are a last resort to help control low speed slides only.
A high speed slide is a case of easing off the brakes, applying sand and then putting the brake back in. It's a case of trying to scrub as much speed off as possible and then using the track brake if needed.

It can be difficult to react quickly enough when your talking a normal braking distance from 50 mph of just a 100-150 metres!

Of course if you know that an area is suffering from poor adhesion then there are techniques to try and prevent sliding.

 

[snowball]

Once upon a time there was talk of fitting trains with plasma torches but it never proved practical.

 

[DarloRich]

From what I understand any "proper" railway stock, but not wagons, is banned as out of gauge on the tunnel sections of the Metro. Also is the OHLE not lower on the metro than on the main line thus reducing clearances?

 

[edwin_m]

From what I understand any "proper" railway stock, but not wagons, is banned as out of gauge on the tunnel sections of the Metro. Also is the OHLE not lower on the metro than on the main line thus reducing clearances?

The OLE was fitted under the existing bridges so I assume is out of gauge, except between Benton and Bank Foot via the curve behind the depot, which still carried freight trains for a few years after Metro opened.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Huge rant in local press (St Albans) regarding extensive tree felling on the last section into the terminus on the branch from Watford - banks fully cleared. Having ridden in the cab of a 313 - doing around 40mph with the brakes on - but the speedo showing zero - on a filthy wet , dark Autumn evening is a sobering thought - driver calmly managed to control it , stopped short - and drew carefully into the platform. No sanders in those days - his comment was "glad you have seen it Guv" - speed restriction put on furno , and sand applied manually....

 

[SeanG]

Last year I saw a metrocar slide into Chillingham Road ie, wheels were locked but it carried on. What a noise.
Don't know if this is common but it certainly surprised me

 

[AM9]

Huge rant in local press (St Albans) regarding extensive tree felling on the last section into the terminus on the branch from Watford - banks fully cleared. Having ridden in the cab of a 313 - doing around 40mph with the brakes on - but the speedo showing zero - on a filthy wet , dark Autumn evening is a sobering thought - driver calmly managed to control it , stopped short - and drew carefully into the platform. No sanders in those days - his comment was "glad you have seen it Guv" - speed restriction put on furno , and sand applied manually....

Saw that, probably by the same lot who rant when the trains go slow because of the mulch. If the trees are on NR land then they should just do what's necessary to maintain a functioning railway. That includes any overhang from trees growing on adjacent land.

 

[infobleep]

Random mad idea time. Could trains be fitted with something that produces a similar effect to steam so that all the vegetation ends get burnt like the steam trains did. Perhaps a hot water vapour could be omitted. It could be produced using the electricity from the train itself.

I'm sure there's a reason why it would never work so do post if you know why.

 

[westcoaster]

Pway workers and passengers on platforms / level crossings to name a few.

 

[Bald Rick]

Random mad idea time. Could trains be fitted with something that produces a similar effect to steam so that all the vegetation ends get burnt like the steam trains did. Perhaps a hot water vapour could be omitted. It could be produced using the electricity from the train itself.

I'm sure there's a reason why it would never work so do post if you know why.

It wasn't steam that burnt the vegetation away. It was cinders from the fire. This has the unfortunate side effect, these days, of burning anything else in the way, like signalling.

The best way is to get out there with chainsaws and strimmers. Rather expensive, annoys the neighbours, but usually effective.

 

[infobleep]

Oh well best not recreate cinders and certainly not a good idea to burn the signal wires.

 

[David Barrett]

The best way is to get out there with chainsaws and strimmers. Rather expensive, annoys the neighbours, but usually effective.

Or even pull up the saplings before they morph into trees.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Even if steam was effective, imagine the size(and weight) of the water tanks that would be needed on, say, the West Highland; Cambrian or Settle-Carlisle lines!

 

[AM9]

Or even pull up the saplings before they morph into trees.

It's strange how trees that overhang a fast road would be cut back toot sweet, but railways are expected to weave around them, - until they make commuters late.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or even pull up the saplings before they morph into trees.

That's what the strimmers are for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's strange how trees that overhang a fast road would be cut back toot sweet, but railways are expected to weave around them, - until they make commuters late.

Interesting point, because I gather from highways engineers that their vegetation spending is being cut back, if you'll pardon the wholly intentional pun.

There is also the point that trees take 30-40 years to get to full maturity. All those motorways built in the late 60s and 70s are now having tree problems that they didn't have. Requiring more action (and thus expenditure) that the Highways Agency doesn't have.

The answer, as said previously, is cut them down, then strim every year. It's what HS1 does, and it works.

 

[infobleep]

That's what the strimmers are for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Interesting point, because I gather from highways engineers that their vegetation spending is being cut back, if you'll pardon the wholly intentional pun.

There is also the point that trees take 30-40 years to get to full maturity. All those motorways built in the late 60s and 70s are now having tree problems that they didn't have. Requiring more action (and thus expenditure) that the Highways Agency doesn't have.

The answer, as said previously, is cut them down, then strim every year. It's what HS1 does, and it works.

Well if it works then you'd hope there wouldn't be a need for a leaf fall timetable in places but there is.

The Cobham line has one and outside of the leaf fall timetable a lot of children for one of the local schools usually get off the 8.02 arrival at Guildford from Portsmouth and join the 8.07 to Waterloo, alighting at London Road. It has a 5 minute connection time which makes it an official connection and actually doable as the 8.02 is usually on time.

When leaf fall timetable comes into being, the Waterloo service via Cobham is due to depart at 8.04. To avoid missing it, some of the children, once they cotton onto the fact it's leaving earlier, then run knowing they can probably just catch the train in 2 minutes. Some do catch it and some don't. Not a good promotion for not running at stations though.

Not sure why there isn't a problem with vegetation on the line via Woking to London. You'd the k that would gain just as many trees, especially Guildford to Woking section.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You only have to look back at older photographs generally in the UK - not just railway locations - to see the vegetation has increased (and indeed as most gardeners now , how quickly anything left alone gets "colonised"

Back to railways - I suspects the worst spots have been identified and dealt with over the years - the North Downs line used to be a shocker - and back on my old patch , Hatch End on the UP DC lines was a well known blackspot - 3 consecutive 313's ran uh there one nasty morning. Trees dealt with - but not without much grief from the locals - who , as you would expect , were vociferous ..

 

[najaB]

Back to railways - I suspects the worst spots have been identified and dealt with over the years...

I was browsing through YouTube the other day and came across this, don't know if you've seen it but it's the result of not dealing with a leaf fall hotspot One Bravo Four Seven

 

[Bald Rick]

Well if it works then you'd hope there wouldn't be a need for a leaf fall timetable in places but there is.

Unfortunately, cutting down trees costs a lot of money, and annoys a lot of neighbours (Network Rail has more neighbours than any other land owner in the country).

Also the boundary fences can be pretty close to the line, and there us nothing that can be done about the neighbours' trees except for the bits that overhang railway land.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You only have to look back at older photographs generally in the UK - not just railway locations - to see the vegetation has increased (and indeed as most gardeners now , how quickly anything left alone gets "colonised"

..

I was surprised to see the changes on the recent re-run of London-Brighton in 4 mins. The vegetation now is much the same as it was in 1983. The big difference is between '53 and '83, which I guess coincides with the end of steam (presuming that freight was still steam hauled on the Brighton line) and the big spending cutbacks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Unfortunately, cutting down trees costs a lot of money, and annoys a lot of neighbours (Network Rail has more neighbours than any other land owner in the country).

Also the boundary fences can be pretty close to the line, and there us nothing that can be done about the neighbours' trees except for the bits that overhang railway land.

I did get the impression you were only referring specifically to HS1 in that post. Network Rail won't be doing the same in the Guildford area, or in the SWT area generally - as infobleep seems to have assumed...

 

[AM9]

Unfortunately, cutting down trees costs a lot of money, and annoys a lot of neighbours (Network Rail has more neighbours than any other land owner in the country).

Also the boundary fences can be pretty close to the line, and there us nothing that can be done about the neighbours' trees except for the bits that overhang railway land.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was surprised to see the changes on the recent re-run of London-Brighton in 4 mins. The vegetation now is much the same as it was in 1983. The big difference is between '53 and '83, which I guess coincides with the end of steam (presuming that freight was still steam hauled on the Brighton line) and the big spending cutbacks.

It sounds as though you think that the current position is sustainable. With climate change, foliage growth will likely get more profuse, autumns are projected to get wetter all at the same time as rail passenger growth with faster trains. So with more leaves on lines there will be more restrictions, more delays and ultimately greater risk of accidents, - just so that properties that have been adjacent to railway lines for decades can look a wall of leaves and pretend that the railway isn't there.

 

[snowball]

Interesting point, because I gather from highways engineers that their vegetation spending is being cut back, if you'll pardon the wholly intentional pun.

There is also the point that trees take 30-40 years to get to full maturity. All those motorways built in the late 60s and 70s are now having tree problems that they didn't have. Requiring more action (and thus expenditure) that the Highways Agency doesn't have.

One difference is that hundreds of thousands of trees were deliberately planted on the slopes of road cuttings.

 

[infobleep]

I did get the impression you were only referring specifically to HS1 in that post. Network Rail won't be doing the same in the Guildford area, or in the SWT area generally - as infobleep seems to have assumed...

Why not? Is it too expensive? If so they need to publicly state that. Of course they would o let get criticised if they publicly said it's to expensive to deal with this here.

 

[theageofthetra]

I was on a small preserved line in Germany and they fitted a pair of petrol strimmers onto the buffer beam of a small wagon and ran it up and down once every few days to keep the weeds down. Am surprised more lines (particularly narrow gauge) don't try this idea.

 

[Bald Rick]

It sounds as though you think that the current position is sustainable.

Oh quite the opposite. I am schizophrenic when it comes to trees; confirmed hugger for those outside the boundary fence, slash and burn merchant inside. Personally, I've been campaigning for the latter within the industry, and (not necessarily because of it) it does at last seem to be happening. There has been more de-vegetation work done this year than any I can remember. And I'm led to believe there is much more to come. But it is a very sensitive issue in some areas.

 

[AM9]

Oh quite the opposite. I am schizophrenic when it comes to trees; confirmed hugger for those outside the boundary fence, slash and burn merchant inside. Personally, I've been campaigning for the latter within the industry, and (not necessarily because of it) it does at last seem to be happening. There has been more de-vegetation work done this year than any I can remember. And I'm led to believe there is much more to come. But it is a very sensitive issue in some areas.

I don't feel that any thinking person would like the number of trees to be reduced (apart from slash and burn developers). The big problem is where their incremental global environmental benefit is infinitesimal compared with the negative safety, social and economic impacts. The problem is particularly prevalent on leafy suburbs of London and towns in the South-East. The law is quite clear about growth of trees impinging on adjacent property yet domestic neighbour friction is often generated by the insistence of some who think that their right to grow natural plants like trees overrides the rights of others to enjoy their own space. Where there are safety issues involved as with railway cuttings, no court would even entertain leaving trees in a hazardous state, however precious they were to their owners.