Leaked VTEC document reports weak Edinburgh <> London rail market share

[Shaw S Hunter]

I agree that the most energy-efficient mode of transport being unable to match airlines for price is bonkers.

It's only bonkers when you look purely at the environmental cost. But most people don't. Reality is that people tend to put a higher value on their time than they do on the environment so any attempt to tax the balance the other way, whether directly or indirectly, is going to be resisted. Ultimately it needs a fundamental change in people's attitude to a whole range of issues that affect the environment. We all value our mobility but perhaps we should be asking ourselves the wartime question: is your journey really necessary? And could we readily switch to a less polluting mode, in particular from car to cycling or walking for shorter journeys? I don't get the impression that as a society we are really interested in making the fundamental changes to our lifestyles that would be needed to reduce the human load on the environment.

 

[Starmill]

We all value our mobility but perhaps we should be asking ourselves the wartime question: is your journey really necessary? And could we readily switch to a less polluting mode, in particular from car to cycling or walking for shorter journeys?

This is the reality that some of us (and quite a few people I know personally) already live our lives by.

However...

I don't get the impression that as a society we are really interested in making the fundamental changes to our lifestyles that would be needed to reduce the human load on the environment.

In general we are not the representative cross-section. I agree, regarding most other groups in society.

 

[takno]

I think that was just one train per hour? With intermediate calls at Newcastle and York only.

As it happens there is just one train that already does this - the 1147 from Aberdeen to London KX on Sundays. Of course with HST stock it does not make it down to 4 hours, but it is 4h 18. I think the key reason it doesn't stop is more down to capacity than anything else.

The last plan I saw was to do it with HSTs and only stop at Newcastle. HSTs broadly make it in 4h20 with additional stops at York, Darlington and Berwick, so 4h should be pretty achievable.

As to the competitiveness of rail, isn't that rather affected between London and Edinburgh by the need to hand over hundreds of millions of quid to the government for the privilege of running the service?

 

[Master29]

I did wonder about 50 or so daily flights from Edinburgh to London but looking at their airport website it certainly seems close to that bearing in mind the number of London airports.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The last plan I saw was to do it with HSTs and only stop at Newcastle. HSTs broadly make it in 4h20 with additional stops at York, Darlington and Berwick, so 4h should be pretty achievable.

As to the competitiveness of rail, isn't that rather affected between London and Edinburgh by the need to hand over hundreds of millions of quid to the government for the privilege of running the service?

In the case of VTEC, they are one of only 2 or 3 franchises that currently (well, probably not for long!) are not subsidised when you take into account Network Rail's enormous subsidy. Even the hyper expensive VTWC is actually subsidised - probably due to the insane spending on WCML upgrades in recent years that's now being paid off.

Increasing subsidy for specific routes where there is airline competition would be one option. But rail is simply not a viable contender in terms of the true operating cost, compared to efficient airlines like Ryanair. It's unionised, it requires far more physical infrastructure and staff to run it, and it requires the maintenance of infrastructure that's often nearly 2 centuries old.

 

[yorksrob]

Increasing subsidy for specific routes where there is airline competition would be one option. But rail is simply not a viable contender in terms of the true operating cost, compared to efficient airlines like Ryanair. It's unionised, it requires far more physical infrastructure and staff to run it, and it requires the maintenance of infrastructure that's often nearly 2 centuries old.

That said, air does have its own achilles heels, certainly in a densely populated country like England. As we know, there's a limit to how much airport development and aircraft noise that people will put up with.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That said, air does have its own achilles heels, certainly in a densely populated country like England. As we know, there's a limit to how much airport development and aircraft noise that people will put up with.

Well, equally so with the blight of overhead electrified railways, really! The noise isn't so much of an issue as the literal destruction of the landscape required.

But yes, there are limits to both systems, currently air probably has more capacity at airport like Stansted and Luton. Until they get as busy as Gatwick they can still squeeze in more capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, equally so with the blight of overhead electrified railways, really! The noise isn't so much of an issue as the literal destruction of the landscape required.

I think the "destruction of the landscape" element of overhead catenary is overstated, particularly given we've had it between London and Scotland for forty years already !

 

[transmanche]

Single leg pricing (promised but seemingly undeliverable) might help.

In fact, it's something that VTEC appear to have removed!

East Coast offered Super Off-Peak singles at half the price of Super Off-Peak returns, albeit on limited routes (such as Newcastle-London) and only from their own website. VTEC seem to have scrapped these unless you purchase an equivalent Advance ticket to make a return journey.

 

[Starmill]

East Coast offered Super Off-Peak singles at half the price of Super Off-Peak returns, albeit on limited routes (such as Newcastle-London) and only from their own website. VTEC seem to have scrapped these unless you purchase an equivalent Advance ticket to make a return journey.

It's still available but you can no longer get a railcard discount which you used to be able to. It's no longer available for journeys where there is no VTEC service (such as Knaresborough to London) or journeys where there is a VTEC service but it's at a barred time (such as Harrogate to London Monday - Friday).

I have attached a screenshot. Note how the Advance for the 0825 from Newcastle costs just £1 less than the Super Off Peak Single!!

 

[route:oxford]

Would non-stop London - Edinburgh via the WCML be a viable option to speed up journey times, once HS2a opens in 2026, meaning potentially spare capacity and free Pendolinos?
How would this route timing compare with a service on the ECML?

Well, with the current timetable, the fastest service from Carlisle to Euston is 3h19m & fastest service from Edinburgh to Carlise 1h13m

So it can be reasonably estimated that a Pendolino could get from Edinburgh to Euston in 4h32m.

Now, If I board at Haymarket rather than Waverley, that cuts down to 4h28m. That means there is potentially just 9 minutes difference between travelling East or West.

So the question is, is it possible to cut 9 minutes off the journey time between Haymarket and Euston?

I'm not sure what the current plan or position is for Carstairs.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Cheaper and better for me to fly BHX-AMS-EDI... I can get it on KLM (House airline) for £129, and only 3.5 hours. This includes for me (being a skyteam elite plus member)

-2 checked bags (probably would only check 1 bag)
-Free Economy comfort on KLM and Delta flights + free extra leg room seats on Air France
-Free access to Skyteam lounges (so, I can get a free meal in AMS, and a shower, and a few drinks)
-An attentive crew
-Free snack and refreshments onboard for everyone

So why would I pay (from STA) a train to Crewe, + a train from Crewe to EDI which would cost me £104, take 3hrs 41 mins, and would give me no benefits? You can get silver KLM status after 10 round trips between UK and AMS... What do you get for travelling Virgin Trains in economy? Nothing. This is why people fly now.

 

[Starmill]

You would get 208 nectar points if you bought that ticket on their website A whole 1% back but only if you spend it at expensive Sainsburys.

 

[DenmarkRail]

You would get 208 nectar points if you bought that ticket on their website A whole 1% back but only if you spend it at expensive Sainsburys.

Asda soon too Seriously we are big nectar points collectors, as we shop at sainsos virtually every day, but the purchases I'd make with VTEC/VTWC are so rare and insignificant, that I'd rather get 10XP + 500 milles on AF/KLM even if it is a little longer / expensive.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps its time for a "rail miles" type scheme. Or even the national railcard we keep agitating for !

 

[DenmarkRail]

Perhaps its time for a "rail miles" type scheme. Or even the national railcard we keep agitating for !

Definatly a tiered scheme... This would go well with my RailPrioirty boarding idea at Euston for Virgin Trains services

 

[SaveECRewards]

Perhaps its time for a "rail miles" type scheme. Or even the national railcard we keep agitating for !

We had one! East Coast Rewards gave points on all rail travel. Although the best rail rewards were redeeming on their own tickets (e.g. 255 points for a standard single anywhere on their route) you could actually redeem on any operator. You could get an eVoucher from 100 points upwards (100 points = £1 eVoucher). Unlike the Nectar eVouchers that artificially restrict you to VTEC (officially) the East Coast Rewards eVouchers were usable on any operator that you could purchase on eastcoast.co.uk (so no sleeper berths).

Now the BEST reward VTEC give is 1% off and it's only limited to their services (or Sainsbury's shopping or pizzas).

If the Rail Delivery Group could set something up it'd be great but we all know their partnership railway is all spin and little substance.

Cheaper and better for me to fly BHX-AMS-EDI... I can get it on KLM (House airline) for £129, and only 3.5 hours. This includes for me (being a skyteam elite plus member)

-2 checked bags (probably would only check 1 bag)
-Free Economy comfort on KLM and Delta flights + free extra leg room seats on Air France
-Free access to Skyteam lounges (so, I can get a free meal in AMS, and a shower, and a few drinks)
-An attentive crew
-Free snack and refreshments onboard for everyone

So why would I pay (from STA) a train to Crewe, + a train from Crewe to EDI which would cost me £104, take 3hrs 41 mins, and would give me no benefits? You can get silver KLM status after 10 round trips between UK and AMS... What do you get for travelling Virgin Trains in economy? Nothing. This is why people fly now.

I said this in the flying v train thread. As a BA Gold member (rewarded as a frequent flyer) I'm looked after very well if I fly LHR-NCL.

Access to the first wing which is a direct security channel to the lounge bypassing the shops (I can arrive at the airport and be sitting in the lounge with food and drink within 5 minutes)
Priority boarding
Seat blocking if available

GNER and NXEC used to have tier based loyalty schemes. GNERtime used to give you the most benefits but both their schemes gave you lounge access on any ticket (or even no ticket, if you happened to be going by King's Cross and fancied a tea you could pop in) as well as a number of free tickets a year. GNER had additional benefits like catering discounts.

That's why long time, high spending ECML users feel let down. BA have made me feel more valued, something I've never said under previous operators.

 

[yorksrob]

Definatly a tiered scheme... This would go well with my RailPrioirty boarding idea at Euston for Virgin Trains services

We had one! East Coast Rewards gave points on all rail travel. Although the best rail rewards were redeeming on their own tickets (e.g. 255 points for a standard single anywhere on their route) you could actually redeem on any operator. You could get an eVoucher from 100 points upwards (100 points = £1 eVoucher). Unlike the Nectar eVouchers that artificially restrict you to VTEC (officially) the East Coast Rewards eVouchers were usable on any operator that you could purchase on eastcoast.co.uk (so no sleeper berths).

Now the BEST reward VTEC give is 1% off and it's only limited to their services (or Sainsbury's shopping or pizzas).

If the Rail Delivery Group could set something up it'd be great but we all know their partnership railway is all spin and little substance.

Well, if there was a national scheme of some sort, it would go some way to making the railway be seen to be good value to the general public.

 

[Robertj21a]

That said, air does have its own achilles heels, certainly in a densely populated country like England. As we know, there's a limit to how much airport development and aircraft noise that people will put up with.

I always thought that most of the latest aircraft made very little noise indeed ?. I guess airports like Stansted could cope with numerous more Ryanair flights if they wanted to add more capacity for Scotland.

 

[yorksrob]

I always thought that most of the latest aircraft made very little noise indeed ?. I guess airports like Stansted could cope with numerous more Ryanair flights if they wanted to add more capacity for Scotland.

That may be the case, however I'm going by the furore over Heathrow's third runway.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Well, if there was a national scheme of some sort, it would go some way to making the railway be seen to be good value to the general public.

I don't know how it works in practice but I know some of the international European operators (Eurostar, DB, NS, SNCF, etc) set up a Railteam alliance. It means if you get status on one (e.g. Carte Blanche on Eurostar) you can get benefits such as lounge access on the others. No doubt the name Railteam was chosen to sound like Skyteam as the national airlines of Netherlands, France and Italy are in Skyteam so Railteam has a familiar ring to it.

So a national scheme of some sort would be nice in the UK domestic market.

Even if we narrow focus to Virgin for the moment. You get a much smaller number of Flying Club miles (if you choose that over Nectar) than you do get in Avios if you choose to fly BA instead. Back when Virgin Atlantic did domestics you'd get much more on a flight with them than you did for the journey by train. Now Virgin Atlantic don't do domestics why don't they tighten up their partnership with VTEC (+WC but they seem to be even more distant with them as they halved miles earnings) and create the impression they're more integrated.

 

[DenmarkRail]

We had one! East Coast Rewards gave points on all rail travel. Although the best rail rewards were redeeming on their own tickets (e.g. 255 points for a standard single anywhere on their route) you could actually redeem on any operator. You could get an eVoucher from 100 points upwards (100 points = £1 eVoucher). Unlike the Nectar eVouchers that artificially restrict you to VTEC (officially) the East Coast Rewards eVouchers were usable on any operator that you could purchase on eastcoast.co.uk (so no sleeper berths).

Now the BEST reward VTEC give is 1% off and it's only limited to their services (or Sainsbury's shopping or pizzas).

If the Rail Delivery Group could set something up it'd be great but we all know their partnership railway is all spin and little substance.



I said this in the flying v train thread. As a BA Gold member (rewarded as a frequent flyer) I'm looked after very well if I fly LHR-NCL.

Access to the first wing which is a direct security channel to the lounge bypassing the shops (I can arrive at the airport and be sitting in the lounge with food and drink within 5 minutes)
Priority boarding
Seat blocking if available

GNER and NXEC used to have tier based loyalty schemes. GNERtime used to give you the most benefits but both their schemes gave you lounge access on any ticket (or even no ticket, if you happened to be going by King's Cross and fancied a tea you could pop in) as well as a number of free tickets a year. GNER had additional benefits like catering discounts.

That's why long time, high spending ECML users feel let down. BA have made me feel more valued, something I've never said under previous operators.

Exactly, I have touched on this in my thread over in the infrastructure forums... There needs to be an incentive to travel long distance by train... An hour trip? I'm probably going to get the train, 3-4 hours? Thats where the competition kicks in. I'm always going to stick with the company who offers me the best, and if I'm just getting a few nectar points over 1/4 of a free flight, then we all know who I would pick... EC rewards was great, but we can go one better, and have a real frequent traveller experience, which can reward customers for saving the planet by ditching their cars and airplanes, but until then, I'll take the longer quicker way

 

[SaveECRewards]

Exactly, I have touched on this in my thread over in the infrastructure forums... There needs to be an incentive to travel long distance by train... An hour trip? I'm probably going to get the train, 3-4 hours? Thats where the competition kicks in. I'm always going to stick with the company who offers me the best, and if I'm just getting a few nectar points over 1/4 of a free flight, then we all know who I would pick... EC rewards was great, but we can go one better, and have a real frequent traveller experience, which can reward customers for saving the planet by ditching their cars and airplanes, but until then, I'll take the longer quicker way

Everyone has their own reasons for taking the train or choosing another mode. The 'catering lottery' for me was what made me cut back my long distance rail travel. Figures by East Coast showed they provided the advertised catering on 99% of services, now I've not seen the figures from VTEC but I'd guess around 70% of services provide the advertised catering. So it's still the vast majority with full catering, but there's still a decent possibility that you will be let down. As VTEC usually say it's complimentary and you get nothing back if you don't get it so you feel cheated if you were looking forward to an evening meal and end up with a sandwich instead. If they still had rewards I'd tolerate the catering lottery to a degree as the free tickets would make up for the occasional let down.

 

[Chrisgr31]

That may be the case, however I'm going by the furore over Heathrow's third runway.

The question is of course how much of the furore about Heathrows 3rd runway is real. I live around 20 miles from Gatwick and virtually everyone I know wasnt fussed about the possibility of Gatwick getting a 2nd runway, and many would welcome it. However there are a few very focal people who had the ear of the local MP and made it appear everyone was against it.

On the thread topic I have only skim read it, but when I was travelling to Edinburgh or Glasgow for work whether I flew or went by train tended to depend on where exactly I was going and how long I had to be up there. I tended to find it was difficult to fly there and back in a day, because invariably I couldnt get a flight back to my departure airport which was marginally inconvienent as that would be where my car was!

I suspect many people dont even think about the train though.

 

[SaveECRewards]

As there's not much of a partnership in the #PartnershipRailway there seems little to encourage people to use the sleeper one way and day train the other. GNER used to have a ticket called the Scottish Executive (no relation to the current ticket with that name). It was a fully flexible first class return ticket (although limited to GNER and Scotrail services) and included:
1st class sleeper reservations on one leg
A sleeper catering voucher
A GNER restaurant voucher valid for a three course meal or breakfast.
Car parking where available
If booked to London it was valid to zones 1/2
This cost £280 when I was using it most weeks in 2003, to compare the first open return was £270 back then. I thought it was a great deal.

When I was in a transition period between jobs in Edinburgh and London I used to get the sleeper on Sunday evening, arrive Euston for 7am, shower in the VT lounge get to work for 8am. Stay in a hotel Mon-Thurs then Friday back up enjoying a three course meal in the GNER restaurant. It was bliss. You could also break your journey on those tickets, so if I wanted to stop off in Newcastle for the night on the way back first I could do so.

For those who needed to drive to Waverley the 7 days inclusive parking would have helped seal the deal. Back then the car park for executive ticket holders was very conveniently placed.

 

[transmanche]

It's still available but you can no longer get a railcard discount which you used to be able to. It's no longer available for journeys where there is no VTEC service (such as Knaresborough to London) or journeys where there is a VTEC service but it's at a barred time (such as Harrogate to London Monday - Friday).

I have attached a screenshot. Note how the Advance for the 0825 from Newcastle costs just £1 less than the Super Off Peak Single!!

It's good to know they are still available but without a railcard discount, they are no use to me!

As it happens, I've pretty much given up on VTEC. I was a regular traveller with East Coast, but after VTEC took over (and once I'd used up my EC Rewards tickets) I've only travelled with them a handful of times, as I could never find tickets at a reasonable price.

Journeys to York are now with TPE or XC. Trips to London are either with GC, or occasionally with BA

 

[Bald Rick]

There’s around 47/48 flights a day from London to Edinburgh; BA out of LHR, LGW and LCY, Flybe out of LHR and LCY, EasyJet out of LGW, LTN and STN, and finally Ryanair from STN only.

Interestingly, it is broadly the same number of flights as 12 years ago. Albeit average aircraft size is smaller, with more use of smaller planes at LCY, Flybe using smaller planes than other airlines used to (principally British Midland) and BA using their 767s much less frequently on the route.

Also, rail market share increased noticeably in the latter part of the 2000s decade. Key factors:

1) the extra security restrictions came in during 2006/7
2) a series of bad winters affected the airports more than the rails
3) the Volcano ash cloud
4) the WCML upgrade concluding

2) & 3) caused many people to use the train for the first time (or first time in ages) and found it was actually alright.


24% market share is actually pretty good; better than Glasgow (and Edinburgh has had a better rail shar than Glasgow for at least 25 years).

 

[Starmill]

It's good to know they are still available

Ask @Wallsendmag on that one

 

[cle]

Well, with the current timetable, the fastest service from Carlisle to Euston is 3h19m & fastest service from Edinburgh to Carlise 1h13m

So it can be reasonably estimated that a Pendolino could get from Edinburgh to Euston in 4h32m.

Now, If I board at Haymarket rather than Waverley, that cuts down to 4h28m. That means there is potentially just 9 minutes difference between travelling East or West.

So the question is, is it possible to cut 9 minutes off the journey time between Haymarket and Euston?

I'm not sure what the current plan or position is for Carstairs.

I think this is an interesting approach - as this will be the meaningful alternative once HS2 is phased in.

The irony of course is that the HS sets will not tilt and so on the classic WCML, will be limited to the non-EPS speeds. What difference that means in journey times, I'm not sure.

Either way, with Blackpool wired and other services coming - Scottish services up the WCML shouldn't be calling before Preston, and only once between there and Carlisle, tops. If both Glasgow and Edinburgh fasts ran up the WCML (plus extras for the Cumbria stops) then stops could be even more spread, given the Birmingham and Manchester Scotland services can support more local journeys twice an hour.

The Carstairs works could save a few minutes definitely, but after that it's clear right into Haymarket. Lancaster to Carlisle is the section which needs help, and is the hardest to do.

 

[Joe Paxton]

That may be the case, however I'm going by the furore over Heathrow's third runway.

The question is of course how much of the furore about Heathrows 3rd runway is real. ...

It's very real, I can assure you of that!