Least appropriate use of Pacers?

[northwichcat]

A microfleet of 3 pacers for a Hastings-Ashford service would not be an efficient setup. Rather than getting brand new Pacers/Sprinters in the 80's, the Marshlink had to put up with the class 205/207 trains that were over 40 years old when replaced in 2004. Also: the Sussex RUS showed that splitting the Brighton-Ashford service at Hastings does not have a buiseness case. The 171s are frequently overcrowded off-peak between Brighton and Hastings.

The North didn't get rid of all it's slam door stock in the 1980s. The 175s were originally ordered to replace the last of the slam door stock in the Regional Railways North West area (including North Wales) around the turn of the millennium. However, as soon as they were all in service, FNW took on a set of mk2s and 31s to allow a couple of 158s to be subleased. The 101s First North Western had were 47 years old at the time of withdrawal and the last 101 diagram was Marple-Manchester, so it got 47 year old 101 one day then probably a 18 year old 142 the next.

How many seats do the 2 car Southern 171s have? The TPE 170/3s have less seats than the Merseytravel 142s so maybe you need some of those instead.

 

[JamesRowden]

The North didn't get rid of all it's slam door stock in the 1980s. The 175s were originally ordered to replace the last of the slam door stock in the Regional Railways North West area (including North Wales) around the turn of the millennium. However, as soon as they were all in service, FNW took on a set of mk2s and 31s to allow a couple of 158s to be subleased. The 101s First North Western had were 47 years old at the time of withdrawal and the last 101 diagram was Marple-Manchester, so it got 47 year old 101 one day then probably a 18 year old 142 the next.

How many seats do the 2 car Southern 171s have? The TPE 170/3s have less seats than the Merseytravel 142s so maybe you need some of those instead.

Or the London South East region could get new EDMUs or electrification with the Turbostars and Sprinters being cascaded

 

[rebmcr]

Mid-Cheshire is poor because of the journey length.

Hope Valley is much worse due to the air pressure slamming into the flimsy doors when entering the many tunnels.

 

[northwichcat]

Mid-Cheshire is poor because of the journey length.

Hope Valley is much worse due to the air pressure slamming into the flimsy doors when entering the many tunnels.

Mid-Cheshire line experiences that when it passes a Pendolino or other stock travelling at speed, even another Pacer on the Navigation Road-Stockport section. Mid-Cheshire also has the Skelton Junction to Deansgate Junction curvature (which doesn't need explaining) and the farm crossings between Knutsford and Northwich which make for a bumpy ride.

Although going through the tunnels on the Hope Valley you certainly know when the windows are open, which is a good thing in Summer but maybe not so good in Spring/Autumn.

 

[thenorthern]

The most inappropriate use of pacers I think is the Cumbrian Cost Line and the Furness Line.

Seriously though I know Pacers are uncomfortable but they manage to get people to work on time and Northern Rail say that in the north the fares are cheaper plus most stations have free parking which is something that the south doesn't have, also to replace ever pacer would cost over £1Bn which the country doesn't have at the moment.

Also if you look at it Northern Rail have tried removing pacers but they have had to be brought back because of increasing demand like other companies have tried withdrawing the HST but so far that hasn't worked. Its simply not feasible to remove that amount of rolling stock without a massive order which is unlikely to happen.

 

[DarloRich]

Remember that London fares are significantly higher on average than fares in the South which don't include travel to or via London.

Bletchley to Coventry standard class annual season ticket. LM only: £3,420.00 Any Permitted: £3,744.00 A journey (via Northampton) of about 49/50 miles

Manchester-London at peak times is one of the most expensive Intercity fares but at least you get a nice long 125mph capable Intercity train every 20 minutes, unlike what you get between Manchester and Scotland.

The same 125 mph train runs both routes, hell even the same 110mph train runs both routes! Just less often.

EDIT - of course Virgin dont actual run over that route - you have to change. My Apologies.

 

[gazthomas]

Ever done Holyhead to Hull on one! Back in the 80's they could have been yours to savour!

 

[Rapidash]

You have fallen into the trap of using 'South' as a translation of 'London and immediate radius/ South East'.

Come down here to Devon and Cornwall and you'll find just as much as sweating of the assets that you suffer in the North, you'll also find just as much overcrowding on branch lines, and the only new stock that we have is the Voyagers on Intercity services - normally 1 train per hour at the periphery of the XC network.

And we most certainly count as 'the South'.

Now now, you know we're not allowed to moan, we should be happy with our lot in life because of the pretty views.....

---------------------------------------------------------------

Its always going to boil down to appropriate use in the context of the service the unit is meant to be fulfilling. Obvious example off the top of my head is the 1722 out of EXC during the week: its possibly the heaviest load out of Exeter during the week and is usually either a single 143 or a 150. 200 + people trying to ram into any 2 carriage unit isn't going to be appropriate, especially on a stopper! And that's before we even start on about the summer loadings!

We all know this to be true, the staff I talk to are just as peeved off with it as the rest of us, but there's bugger all to be done until every other part of the country is sorted out apparently. :roll:

Shame we can't just steal the Cornish 150's

....I, uh, seem to have started ranting again, whoops!

 

[yorksrob]

I saw an article in Modern Railways that suggested 2X144's would be permanently formed into 4 carriage units. I'd be quite relaxed about this as the 144's are fairly decent and would be a decent suburban/inter urban run around.

However, I'm still glad that people are raising this topic. However many times we may have discussed this on here, northern railways have not been a hot topic in the wider world and this has allowed the DfT to make Northern rail users their whipping boy.

As for unsuitable routes for 2 car units, clearly Carlisle - Newcastle/Lancaster. Whilst it's true that few people will travel the full 4 hours from Lancaster to Carlisle this way, there are still some fairly hefty 2ish hour journeys from the coast to the rest of the Network.

Hope valley always strikes me as too busy for a 2 carriage. Maybe a 3 carriage 144 service would be more fitting. Even on the Hallam line which I use everyday, 2 pacer carriages are inadequate for many times of day. Fortunately, we get a lot of 3 carriage 144's but there are still 2 carriage units interspersed (including last trains out of Leeds at weekends which are just rammed).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A microfleet of 3 pacers for a Hastings-Ashford service would not be an efficient setup. Rather than getting brand new Pacers/Sprinters in the 80's, the Marshlink had to put up with the class 205/207 trains that were over 40 years old when replaced in 2004.

I consider myself fortunate indeed to have grown up on the Southern Region where superior DEMU's enabled us to miss out the Pacer interlude.

 

[L+Y]

I think the Southport line is definitely one of the contenders: there are plenty of passengers travelling from the stations beyond Wigan right the way into the middle of Manchester on a Pacer, a journey of around an hour generally. It doesn't fall into the category of being a long distance service that people don't actually travel end-to-end on: in this case, plenty of them do!

Conversely, the two other local lines in the area, Preston-Ormskirk and Wigan-Kirkby, are ideal Pacer territory, and I for one would not be unhappy if these routes put up with Pacers for another decade or more if it meant enhanced service provision: perhaps hourly on the Ormskirk line and half-hourly on the Kirkby one?

 

[tbtc]

Gosh, I'd never have guessed the direction that this thread headed in...

This kind of thing is tiresome - yes pacers are less good than other train but they are also cheaper to run keeping the costs for Northern passengers down. Perhaps you could nominate from where replacement trains can be extracted or how you wish to pay for the new trains?

I'd love to see someone actually answer this issue.

My answer (as mentioned before on these kind of threads) is that we'll see at least a hundred 75mph DMUs replaced by EMUs in CP5, and that a similar amount of electrification in CP6 on "secondary" routes (since the remaining "main lines" are being wired in CP5) will allow us to withdraw all 1980s DMUs...

...which means that we'll have enough "modern" DMUs to run all unelectrified services in 2024 (that may be an entirely post-privatisation DMU fleet, that may also require Turbos)...

...any DMUs ordered today probably won't come into revenue earning service until around 2017 (esp since there's no "off the shelf" DMu that meets modern standards), so any newbuild of DMUs would be surplus to requirements after only around a quarter of their expected lifespan - a false economy.

Maybe in the 2030s we'll start looking at units for unelectrified lines (i.e. by the time that the earliest 170s are being pensioned off), but by that time the technology will have moved on significantly re batteries/hybrids/renewables etc.

I think one of the issues with Pacers is due to their usage on so many different lines you can finish up making a longish journey with a change on the fastest available services (e.g. Edale-Southport) and finish up making each leg on a Pacer.

Would you like to guess how many people travel from Edale to Southport each day?

Or are you just coming up with more extreme examples to try to prove a point? Personally, I don't think that these kind of rare examples help your case.

Blackpool North to Huddersfield is usually booked to be a 142. Awful DMU for such a long service.

Again, how many people do this? It's two services tacked together (as MidnightFlyer has pointed out) - partly to save platform space at Victoria, partly to utilise stock more efficiently - you might as well suggest that there are large numbers of people in Altrincham travelling all the way to Bury on Metrolink.

Possibly FGW's attempt at Paignton to Paddington on a 142 (Stopped at Swindon because Control didn't want a 75mph unit clogging the fasts during the am peak!)

Certainly not something that a Pacer is "appropriate" for, but I'm guessing that the alternative was to cancel the service (since presumably the intended HST wasn't fit for service)?

As I so often do on here, once again I find myself unable to fault tbtc. The thoroughly tedious onslaught on here of 'Nodding Donkeys' or 'They should send them on Uckfield-London Bridge to see how they like it' is frankly immature and serves nothing for a proper discussion into what is a pressing issue

If you suggest any variation of "well the south get new trains all the time”/”It is about time money was spent on the north” etc I will scream

I agree with you both - this is a fascinating Forum where I've learned a lot of things from a lot of cleverer people (inside the industry and outside it), but whenever there's a thread with "Pacers" in the title, you just know it's going to go into Panto mode and the same tired jokes/comments made.

The southeast sees 9x more rail investment than Yorkshire and Humberside

What does that mean? Per head of population? Per passenger? Per passenger mile? Over which period? (presumably just over the last couple of years, since "the southeast" is seeing a high water mark in terms of infrastructure investment, after years of delays to building Thameslink 2000 and Crossrail?)

Does "investment" include subsidies to ongoing services? Because spending £1 on new infrastructure costs the same as the subsidy on the average two mile Northern service. Or if you are saying that Yorkshire should have the same investment as the "southeast" then does that mean that they should have the same subsidies per passenger mile too?

Or is it just a meaningless statistic that sounds big in an argument but isn't a useful benchmark?

If members of the Cabinet had to use Pacers on a daily basis, Pacers would not exist. The North has suffered Pacers for nearly 30 years because the South wouldn't have them. Regular Pacer users have had enough and that is why they are bitter.

The Cabinet? Dunno how they get to work, but I'd guess that some of them must have used the Circle/ District Lines over the past thirty year period that you refer to?

I wouldn't describe those Underground trains as being particularly gold plated, yet the people of Westminster seemed to cope.

That would be the south east where all the money and passengers are? Sadly for me, as an exile, I wish this wasn’t true but unpleasant or not facts are facts.

While Manchester and Leeds are busy they rank somewhere outside of the top 10 busiest stations in the UK. 9 of the top 10 busiest are in London. The other is Birmingham. Of the top 20, 5 are outside London. Of the top 30, 7 are outside of the South East. Does that tell you something? Need we start looking at population figures?

True (sadly).

I'd love to beat the drum for investment in Yorkshire, I really would. But I'm realistic enough to appreciate that the business case for investment is better in busy areas.

We are already talking about Crossrail potentially being "full" from day one of operation - that's where the demand is.

Really? The company who stops 171s at little villages like Winchelsea, Three Oaks, Appledore and Doleham, which combined give significantly less passengers than TPE's lowest usage stations. TPE had 2 services in the most recent 'top 10 overcrowded trains' list, Southern had none.

Very selective quoting, since TPE obviously only stop their "express" services at relatively "main" stations. Southern, on the other hand, stop at every station on their patch.

I nominate Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow. It got very painful after Whitehaven.

If you travel from Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow then you are either:

• Unable to read a timetable to understand that the "via Penrith" service is much faster/ more frequent
• A railway enthusiast who wants to take the slower scenic route
• Travelling at a time of disruption to the WCML

Regardless, it's not a "normal" passenger journey

to to replace ever pacer would cost over £1Bn which the country doesn't have at the moment.

Also if you look at it Northern Rail have tried removing pacers but they have had to be brought back because of increasing demand like other companies have tried withdrawing the HST but so far that hasn't worked. Its simply not feasible to remove that amount of rolling stock without a massive order which is unlikely to happen.

True.

And if we did have a spare Billion then there are better things that we could be spending it on, than worrying about DMUs with less than a decade of service left.

I think the Southport line is definitely one of the contenders: there are plenty of passengers travelling from the stations beyond Wigan right the way into the middle of Manchester on a Pacer, a journey of around an hour generally. It doesn't fall into the category of being a long distance service that people don't actually travel end-to-end on: in this case, plenty of them do!

What criteria are you using here?

• They are certainly suitable for the speeds (the same 75mph top speed of the 156s that used to be the mainstay on that line)
• They are certainly suitable for the relatively flat terrain (e.g. they aren't able to climb up to Buxton, but a flattish trip to the seaside shouldn't trouble them much) - certainly easier inclines than the Hope Valley/ Calder Valley
• The doubled up 142s on most journey are more suitable in terms of passenger capacity than the single 156s that used to operate (approx 60m of train now, compared to approx 46m of train before)

...so is it just a seat/comfort thing?

 

[deltic08]

You have fallen into the trap of using 'South' as a translation of 'London and immediate radius/ South East'.

Come down here to Devon and Cornwall and you'll find just as much as sweating of the assets that you suffer in the North, you'll also find just as much overcrowding on branch lines, and the only new stock that we have is the Voyagers on Intercity services - normally 1 train per hour at the periphery of the XC network.

And we most certainly count as 'the South'.

Being born and brought up in the Southwest I don't regard it as the mean and nasty South. Yes I mean London and Southeast when I say South.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Gosh, I'd never have guessed the direction that this thread headed in...



I'd love to see someone actually answer this issue.

My answer (as mentioned before on these kind of threads) is that we'll see at least a hundred 75mph DMUs replaced by EMUs in CP5, and that a similar amount of electrification in CP6 on "secondary" routes (since the remaining "main lines" are being wired in CP5) will allow us to withdraw all 1980s DMUs...

...which means that we'll have enough "modern" DMUs to run all unelectrified services in 2024 (that may be an entirely post-privatisation DMU fleet, that may also require Turbos)...

...any DMUs ordered today probably won't come into revenue earning service until around 2017 (esp since there's no "off the shelf" DMu that meets modern standards), so any newbuild of DMUs would be surplus to requirements after only around a quarter of their expected lifespan - a false economy.

Maybe in the 2030s we'll start looking at units for unelectrified lines (i.e. by the time that the earliest 170s are being pensioned off), but by that time the technology will have moved on significantly re batteries/hybrids/renewables etc.



Would you like to guess how many people travel from Edale to Southport each day?

Or are you just coming up with more extreme examples to try to prove a point? Personally, I don't think that these kind of rare examples help your case.



Again, how many people do this? It's two services tacked together (as MidnightFlyer has pointed out) - partly to save platform space at Victoria, partly to utilise stock more efficiently - you might as well suggest that there are large numbers of people in Altrincham travelling all the way to Bury on Metrolink.



Certainly not something that a Pacer is "appropriate" for, but I'm guessing that the alternative was to cancel the service (since presumably the intended HST wasn't fit for service)?





I agree with you both - this is a fascinating Forum where I've learned a lot of things from a lot of cleverer people (inside the industry and outside it), but whenever there's a thread with "Pacers" in the title, you just know it's going to go into Panto mode and the same tired jokes/comments made.



What does that mean? Per head of population? Per passenger? Per passenger mile? Over which period? (presumably just over the last couple of years, since "the southeast" is seeing a high water mark in terms of infrastructure investment, after years of delays to building Thameslink 2000 and Crossrail?)

Does "investment" include subsidies to ongoing services? Because spending £1 on new infrastructure costs the same as the subsidy on the average two mile Northern service. Or if you are saying that Yorkshire should have the same investment as the "southeast" then does that mean that they should have the same subsidies per passenger mile too?

Or is it just a meaningless statistic that sounds big in an argument but isn't a useful benchmark?



The Cabinet? Dunno how they get to work, but I'd guess that some of them must have used the Circle/ District Lines over the past thirty year period that you refer to?

I wouldn't describe those Underground trains as being particularly gold plated, yet the people of Westminster seemed to cope.



True (sadly).

I'd love to beat the drum for investment in Yorkshire, I really would. But I'm realistic enough to appreciate that the business case for investment is better in busy areas.

We are already talking about Crossrail potentially being "full" from day one of operation - that's where the demand is.



Very selective quoting, since TPE obviously only stop their "express" services at relatively "main" stations. Southern, on the other hand, stop at every station on their patch.



If you travel from Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow then you are either:

• Unable to read a timetable to understand that the "via Penrith" service is much faster/ more frequent
• A railway enthusiast who wants to take the slower scenic route
• Travelling at a time of disruption to the WCML

Regardless, it's not a "normal" passenger journey



True.

And if we did have a spare Billion then there are better things that we could be spending it on, than worrying about DMUs with less than a decade of service left.



What criteria are you using here?

• They are certainly suitable for the speeds (the same 75mph top speed of the 156s that used to be the mainstay on that line)
• They are certainly suitable for the relatively flat terrain (e.g. they aren't able to climb up to Buxton, but a flattish trip to the seaside shouldn't trouble them much) - certainly easier inclines than the Hope Valley/ Calder Valley
• The doubled up 142s on most journey are more suitable in terms of passenger capacity than the single 156s that used to operate (approx 60m of train now, compared to approx 46m of train before)

...so is it just a seat/comfort thing?

Where do you find the time?

Cabinet members do not use public transport, they have a ministerial car. That is the problem.

My mistake. Rail investment in the Southeast is £2700 per head compared to £305 per head in Yorkshire and Humberside and only £5 per head in the Northeast. Total inequality. Why so much more per head in London and Southeast. Timescale is irrelevant. These are DfT figures now.

West Cumberland journeys are not "normal"!! Tell that to inhabitants of Workington and Whitehaven. They have a choice of an hour to Carlisle and changing there for a train south or travel via Barrow and Lancaster. Inhabitants of Millom travelling to Scotland have the worst choice to make. I am surprised anybody in West Cumberland uses the train for more than very local journeys.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ever done Holyhead to Hull on one! Back in the 80's they could have been yours to savour!

In the 1980's, they were quite new rolling stock.

 

[158756]

My answer (as mentioned before on these kind of threads) is that we'll see at least a hundred 75mph DMUs replaced by EMUs in CP5, and that a similar amount of electrification in CP6 on "secondary" routes (since the remaining "main lines" are being wired in CP5) will allow us to withdraw all 1980s DMUs...

...which means that we'll have enough "modern" DMUs to run all unelectrified services in 2024 (that may be an entirely post-privatisation DMU fleet, that may also require Turbos)...

Whilst I would like that to happen, I don't think electrification will be that fast.
The problem though is that the DfT won't commit to any plan to see the pacers replaced at all. This is the same issue as with everyone wanting electrification now-there is no(public) long term plan, everywhere might eventually be electrified or the plug could be pulled within a few years.
So for all we know; Pacers could be gone around 2020, a few years later, or refurbished or unrefurbished Pacers could still be running round in 2030.
So the Northern Councils and other groups are perfectly entitled to question the continued use of the pacers, as for all they know left unquestioned they could still be running peak Calder Valley services in 20 years time. The Northern ITT might clear some things up...or not.

 

[Starmill]

Expect a lot of "witty" comments about how any service is inappropriate from the usual suspects on here (and some extreme examples where a Pacer has had to deputise for something else to avoid a service being cancelled)

The problem with this, whether I am to be considered among one of your 'usual suspects' or not, is that there is no service that one could look at in the UK today and call this type of vehicle adequate, or even acceptable in a pinch. Standards and expectations have moved on to the degree that these trains are beyond obsolete. So far from being 'wit' it's simply the truth that these trains cannot actually be considered 'appropriate' period. Naturally, there are places where there use is a little less inexcusable than others. Also consider this - if pacers were not in existence, they couldn't very well deputise for anything, could they?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have fallen into the trap of using 'South' as a translation of 'London and immediate radius/ South East'.

Come down here to Devon and Cornwall and you'll find just as much as sweating of the assets that you suffer in the North, you'll also find just as much overcrowding on branch lines, and the only new stock that we have is the Voyagers on Intercity services - normally 1 train per hour at the periphery of the XC network.

And we most certainly count as 'the South'.

You won't find any 142s with their original brown floor covering there though, will you? The percentage of pacer units in use on First Great Western is tiny.

 

[thenorthern]

West Cumberland journeys are not "normal"!! Tell that to inhabitants of Workington and Whitehaven. They have a choice of an hour to Carlisle and changing there for a train south or travel via Barrow and Lancaster. Inhabitants of Millom travelling to Scotland have the worst choice to make. I am surprised anybody in West Cumberland uses the train for more than very local journeys.

Not really, remember the roads are poor around there and the train can often be quicker than the road. Didn't DRS once plan to run a Carlisle to Sellafield workers only train? I am not sure if that is still running.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The DRS train stopped a long time ago, it didn't hold out very long. It is also worth remembering that a lot of Northern services along the Cumbrian Coast (both north and south of Barrow) are still 153s or 156s, it's not the Pacer hotbed that some other lines are, plus practically every other train south of Barrow is a 185. I think a more pressing issue for the Coast in addition to the undesirable Pacer utilisation on some services is the poor timetable - no evening services between Millom and Whitehaven at all, and nothing at all between Barrow and Whitehaven on Sundays. The timetable on the Furness stretch isn't too shoddy but alas the Whitehaven-Carlisle stretch is an often-forgotten member of the 1400 Sunday start category.

 

[HSTEd]

My mistake. Rail investment in the Southeast is £2700 per head compared to £305 per head in Yorkshire and Humberside and only £5 per head in the Northeast. Total inequality. Why so much more per head in London and Southeast. Timescale is irrelevant. These are DfT figures now.
.

The investment money for Yorkshire/Humberside and the Northeast goes on maintaining hugely uneconomic services.
You can have the investment funding but it will come at the cost of drastically reduced operational subsidies.

 

[ian959]

I don't suppose there is any chance of this topic actually getting back ON topic and staying there?

From a purely subjective point of view, the least appropriate use of Pacers would be on any route where the largest flow of passengers from one particular station to another particular station exceeds a journey time of about 45 minutes. Whilst I have done some horrendously long journeys on Pacers in my time, they were end to end journeys on services like Blackpool to Huddersfield or Lancaster to Leeds where I was (probably) the only person to make the whole journey and I only did it because I wanted to as an enthusiast.

That said I would rather have any train than no train.

 

[starrymarkb]

hey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You won't find any 142s with their original brown floor covering there though, will you? The percentage of pacer units in use on First Great Western is tiny.

There are also a lot in Wales remember. Also FGW gave the 142s that arrived from Northern a mini refresh with a fresh coat of paint and retrim of the seats because the units that had been in storage were not in good condition

 

[Rapidash]

You won't find any 142s with their original brown floor covering there though, will you? The percentage of pacer units in use on First Great Western is tiny.

And yet for those of us in Devon where they make up a large chunk of services they continue to be inappropriate on most services where the majority of passengers will be going end to end from Painting/Barnstaple Exeter Central which is on average, an hours journey plus change.

Just because you have more of the things doesn't mean you get to have the sole claim on whinging about 'em.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd love to see someone actually answer this issue.

My answer (as mentioned before on these kind of threads) is that we'll see at least a hundred 75mph DMUs replaced by EMUs in CP5, and that a similar amount of electrification in CP6 on "secondary" routes (since the remaining "main lines" are being wired in CP5) will allow us to withdraw all 1980s DMUs...

...which means that we'll have enough "modern" DMUs to run all unelectrified services in 2024 (that may be an entirely post-privatisation DMU fleet, that may also require Turbos)...

...any DMUs ordered today probably won't come into revenue earning service until around 2017 (esp since there's no "off the shelf" DMu that meets modern standards), so any newbuild of DMUs would be surplus to requirements after only around a quarter of their expected lifespan - a false economy.

Maybe in the 2030s we'll start looking at units for unelectrified lines (i.e. by the time that the earliest 170s are being pensioned off), but by that time the technology will have moved on significantly re batteries/hybrids/renewables etc.

I am in agreement with you. TP wires/Northern hub offers the best, short term, way to release diesel units to shift Pacers about.

That pacers have to go I don’t think is in doubt - how the replacements are paid for AND who meets what portion of the bill IS. How much extra are you willing to pay to fund the new trains?

I'd love to beat the drum for investment in Yorkshire, I really would. But I'm realistic enough to appreciate that the business case for investment is better in busy areas.

We are already talking about Crossrail potentially being "full" from day one of operation - that's where the demand is.

Much as it pains me as a proud north easterner, and considering all that has been done to us over the years, facts are facts. London and an ever widening south east area is where the money is, where the people are, where the jobs are and where the most money has to be spent to earn any sort of return within an acceptable period.

Now that doesn’t mean that MORE investment inst needed in the North, plainly it is, it just means the schemes have to be almost “no brainers” to pass any sort of BCR process. Devolving the power to decide on infrastructure investment to the regions might change this.

The problem with this, whether I am to be considered among one of your 'usual suspects' or not, is that there is no service that one could look at in the UK today and call this type of vehicle adequate, or even acceptable in a pinch. Standards and expectations have moved on to the degree that these trains are beyond obsolete. So far from being 'wit' it's simply the truth that these trains cannot actually be considered 'appropriate' period. Naturally, there are places where there use is a little less inexcusable than others. Also consider this - if pacers were not in existence, they couldn't very well deputise for anything, could they?

But sadly they are still perfect for many services on low usage, rural routes that would struggle to offer a return on any investment. Many of these routes are in the North. The yare also fine for short distance commuter services, especially if offering extra capacity. They are NOT ideal for long distance, intensively used services. The simple fact is that their existence and use keeps fares down. How much extra are you prepared to pay to get a brand new train?

 

[47802]

Unacceptable journeys for me are Sheffield Lincoln and Carlisle Newcastle, mainly because they are the main link between major cities with no alternative non rail bus fast service so they will carry a lot of end to end passengers.

 

[phil beard]

I remember a long journey on the full length of the S&C in a WYPTE Class 144 "thing" in the 1990s and only go on the line nowadays on rail tours for fear that one of those may be used in place of the usual 158. I know the seats are better on Pacers these days but the leg room is appalling and I have strange fear of losing the use of my limbs due to the blood supply being cut-off. I do sympathise with those oop north. :cry::cry:

 

[47802]

I remember a long journey on the full length of the S&C in a WYPTE Class 144 "thing" in the 1990s and only go on the line nowadays on rail tours for fear that one of those may be used in place of the usual 158. I know the seats are better on Pacers these days but the leg room is appalling and I have strange fear of losing the use of my limbs due to the blood supply being cut-off. I do sympathise with those oop north. :cry::cry:

Yeh I had a 142 once between Leeds and Carlisle, with original bus seats, and a very cold winters morning.

If they put decent seats in them it would help especially on the 142's, those Mersey rail seats are terrible, and those seats where the headrests used to keep falling off and the seat backs at a ridiculous angle, and of course with Northern's random unit generator, even on routes where might expect a 158 you might suddenly find a Rail Bus turning up, only Leeds Nottingham is fairly safe where they are not allowed on the latter part of the route.

 

[thenorthern]

Yeh I had a 142 once between Leeds and Carlisle, with original bus seats, and a very cold winters morning.

If they put decent seats in them it would help especially on the 142's, those Mersey rail seats are terrible, and those seats where the headrests used to keep falling off and the seat backs at a ridiculous angle, and of course with Northern's random unit generator, even on routes where might expect a 158 you might suddenly find a Rail Bus turning up, only Leeds Nottingham is fairly safe where they are not allowed on the latter part of the route.

Are you sure they are not allowed down to Nottingham?

 

[northwichcat]

Would you like to guess how many people travel from Edale to Southport each day?

Or are you just coming up with more extreme examples to try to prove a point? Personally, I don't think that these kind of rare examples help your case.

It was just one out of hundreds of possible examples of a journey you can make where you can get a Pacer all the way. The fact that these journeys are rarer is not irrelevant - people who don't normally use the train make may a rail journey by train, with a good experience meaning they are likely to use the train again more often, while a bad experience (such as the Bradford passengers on the Mid-Cheshire line I referred to earlier) means occasional rail users are put off using the train.

However, I'm not surprised with your response given you're the person who is keen on cutting up rail services here there and everywhere unless the majority of passengers use them for through services.
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Are you sure they are not allowed down to Nottingham?

I don't think the necessary paperwork has been done to allow them to go down to Nottingham, but unlike Stoke and Buxton I don't think there's any other reason why they can't go to Nottingham. Pacer's failed clearance for Hazel Grove-Buxton and apparently they can't do Macclesfield-Stoke due to platform clearance issues and being 75mph trains with poor acceleration.

 

[starrymarkb]

Yeh I had a 142 once between Leeds and Carlisle, with original bus seats, and a very cold winters morning.

If they put decent seats in them it would help especially on the 142's, those Mersey rail seats are terrible, and those seats where the headrests used to keep falling off and the seat backs at a ridiculous angle, and of course with Northern's random unit generator, even on routes where might expect a 158 you might suddenly find a Rail Bus turning up, only Leeds Nottingham is fairly safe where they are not allowed on the latter part of the route.

That is one advantage to the ones in the SW and Wales - Wales and West gave them a decent refurb with Chapman seats in 2+2 - FGW and Arriva have improved them further. They still bounce and sway and catch fire (in the case of the 143s) but they aren't bad for the 1 hour routes they usually work. A pair of 143s do a good job of crowd busting on the Devon Metro. (one on it's own isn't pleasant at all though)

 

[northwichcat]

Very selective quoting, since TPE obviously only stop their "express" services at relatively "main" stations. Southern, on the other hand, stop at every station on their patch.

A very inaccurate statement. I was comparing stations such as Malton and Seamar to stations on Marshlink. Which stations do TPE miss out between York and Scarborough? I thought they stopped at all stations on that rural stretch of line, which seems to be well patronised.

 

[D6975]

A very inaccurate statement. I was comparing stations such as Malton and Seamar to stations on Marshlink. Which stations do TPE miss out between York and Scarborough? I thought they stopped at all stations on that rural stretch of line, which seems to be well patronised.

The ones that have closed. Stations on York-Scar comparable to the minor ones on Marshlink are all long gone. Only Malton and Seamer remain. Malton is a reasonable sized town and is where you change to get to Flamingoland. Seamer is the change station for the Yorks coast, Bridlington Filey etc. Neither of them are 'shacks'.
They could be compared perhaps to Rye, but not to places like Appledore or Winchelsea.

I've done Carlisle-Newcastle on a 142 and it wasn't particularly pleasant. Definitely a route that should be 156s, there's no faster/more comfortable/reasonable alternative to this one, unlike Barrow-Carlisle or Leeds-Morecambe.