Least successful new stations

[daodao]

Does Kirkstall Forge get many passengers? There doesn't seem to be much there.

Kirkstall Forge station was used by 289,528 passengers pa in 2019/20.

 

[mrcheek]

Into the future maybe ? Okehampton ? up a steep hill from town - 2 hourly service to start.

Probably true. Theyre looking at building a new station in a better location. So the main station might not be the terminus for very long

 

[Gathursty]

If they continue to charge £6 more for peak day return to New Street than Shrub Hill it will always be underused. Especially as free on street parking at WSH.

I never understand why parkway stations have to charge you for parking as it will just encourage people to continue to drive into whichever town/city they were going to.

By all means add a bit more to the train ticket price but make parking free.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does Kirkstall Forge get many passengers? There doesn't seem to be much there.

I think it was doing okay prior to Covid. There's not a whole lot right on the doorstep but plenty of housing a short walk away.

 

[YorksLad12]

Does Kirkstall Forge get many passengers? There doesn't seem to be much there.

Kirkstall Forge station was used by 289,528 passengers pa in 2019/20.

I think it was doing okay prior to Covid. There's not a whole lot right on the doorstep but plenty of housing a short walk away.

Kirkstall Forge was part-funded by the site developers, as the station would be convenient for the huge mixed use development now underway, though very slowly (there will be apartments, homes, a school, surgery and restaurants as well as offices. Allegedly). It's also a small P&R site - I think around 125 parking spots. At worst they could double the parking spots and patronage would rise.

 

[nw1]

Probably true. Theyre looking at building a new station in a better location. So the main station might not be the terminus for very long

(Okehampton) mind you there are no other stations anywhere near, which should encourage use.

 

[Ianigsy]

I worked with somebody who used Kirkstall Forge until COVID hit - as well as the development there, it also relieves Bramley, Horsforth and Headingley to an extent. Kirkstall Road is notorious for peak time snarl ups so a four-car train with a ten minute journey time is going to find a place in the market.

Somebody mentioned the northern half of the Waverley route - I think the stations north of Gorebridge were built in anticipation of development. Gorebridge is also the outer extent of the well-run and keenly-priced Lothian bus network.

 

[Gloster]

(Okehampton) mind you there are no other stations anywhere near, which should encourage use.

But are there many people near? How long are people prepared to drive to a station before they think, “We’ve already driven such a distance, let’s go all the way in the car.”

 

[Starmill]

Swanline was a disaster back in the day.

A two-hourly service really isn't attractive to new users is it. Some stations manage with that frequency but they've been around for decades, and none are that busy.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

A two-hourly service really isn't attractive to new users is it. Some stations manage with that frequency but they've been around for decades, and none are that busy.

Thats the key to success, frequency of service, less than 1 tph isn't worth doing

 

[Kite159]

I never understand why parkway stations have to charge you for parking as it will just encourage people to continue to drive into whichever town/city they were going to.

By all means add a bit more to the train ticket price but make parking free.

For example Coleshill Parkway used to be free parking which helped towards their expensive XC fare into Birmingham.
But now you have to pay to park as well as the expensive XC fare I can see some users shifting more towards Birmingham where fares are cheaper.

 

[24Grange]

Thats the key to success, frequency of service, less than 1 tph isn't worth doing

Yes, Indeed. If your early morning commute train is cancelled and you have to wait for the next one, you are at least 2 hours late for work ! That happens a couple of times and you'll abandon the railway and drive to work - unless you have a very very understanding boss !!! Ditto on the way home on a wet cold winters night 2 hours !!

 

[Aureol Colin]

Teeside Airport?

 

[Darandio]

Teeside Airport?

It isn't post 1980.

 

[Watershed]

If they continue to charge £6 more for peak day return to New Street than Shrub Hill it will always be underused. Especially as free on street parking at WSH.

Not sure where you get that from. Fares from Worcestershire Parkway to Birmingham are exactly the same as those from Worcester.

You have a very valid point with the parking, but unfortunately station parking is mostly seen as a source of additional income, rather than something that can make rail (and particularly Parkway stations) an attractive option.

 

[The exile]

Kirkstall Forge was part-funded by the site developers, as the station would be convenient for the huge mixed use development now underway, though very slowly (there will be apartments, homes, a school, surgery and restaurants as well as offices. Allegedly). It's also a small P&R site - I think around 125 parking spots. At worst they could double the parking spots and patronage would rise.

It’s also a good example of what should be done - ensure the public transport options from/ to a new development site are available from day one ( which almost inevitably means a period of little use) rather than forcing the potential users to establish alternative travel patterns and then expect them to change them.

 

[Scotrail314209]

A similar comment could be made about Prestwick International Airport railway station, opened in 1994.

Prestwick Airport gets used albeit very little, it's very convenient for passengers in the Northern part of Prestwick, as well as airport workers.

I'd expect the airport itself to get busier as they were looking for CSA's, so I'd definitely expect usage to rise.

It's a shame that the low usage isn't a fault of the railway itself, but instead Ryanair who limited their flights years ago.

 

[Djgr]

I'd recommend page twenty of this document >> https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/3932/demand-forecasting-report.pdf

The benchmarks for most stations seem fairly realistic (in that broadly half are below par, half are above expectations)

Imperial Wharf, Chandlers Ford, Liverpool South Parkway, Newcraighall, Merryton, Aylesbury Vale are on the "naughty list", but that's to be expected given that not everything is going to meet its benchmark - however much some people may want to focus only on Ebbw Vale (which was approved based on lower numbers of demand but then the steel works closed and significantly more people needed to leave Ebbw Vale for work each morning, compared to having a local steelworks that employed huge numbers - I'm not knocking Ebbw Vale - it's clearly a success - but I do get tired when people bring up it's significantly above expectations numbers to suggest that there's a problems with the methodology for other projects - one outlier for specific reasons isn't indicative of a problem with the BCR criteria)

Of course some stations get the green light regardless of any business case - e.g. we didn't open the line to Tweedbank because of amazing passenger expectations, we built it because of good old fashioned political horse-trading

Also, when reading the graph, bear in mind that a station that got half the expected numbers shows at -50% whilst a station that got double the expected numbers shows at +100% on there, so anything above average seems a bit skewed - basic statistics and all that, but it can make some stations look significantly better than they are!



It's been a disappointment - I think that part of the problem is that it was imposed on a TOC that weren't able to accommodate it very well

If it was being built right now then it could open at the EMR recast where the additional capacity on the new 810s would allow a half hourly "fast" to Sheffield/ Derby and Nottingham and four "fast" to Leicester/ London (plus the Ivanhoe stoppers) - that'd be good enough to attract a lot of people off the M1 and be confident of a short wait for the next service

Instead, the cramped 222s meant that there was only scope for a minimal one "fast" to Sheffield/ Derby and Nottingham and a badly spaced two "fast" to Leicester/ London (plus the Ivanhoe stoppers) - but with horrendous 15/45 splits on the "fast" Leicester/London services

Someone from somewhere like Rotherham/ Mansfield/ Matlock might be attracted to drive to a station where there was a minimum fifteen minute wait for the next London train, but not for a forty five minute wait

So, if it was in the pipeline now then I think there'd be good days ahead - but Stagecoach had to try to take on the complication of the Corby services and trying to squeeze a stop at EM Parkways into the timetable - it was always going to be a struggle (especially given the lack of spare seats on 222s, so limited scope for cheap advanced tickets)





The numbers aren't brilliant but it feels indicative that a station with hundreds of thousands of passengers per annum is regularly brought up as a failure on here whilst a station with a hundred passengers per annum will be defended as providing a vital social service giving unquantifiable public benefits

(same with people complaining about the White Rose Parkway station that's expected to get "only" a six figure number of passengers!)



Herdings Park had five trams an hour in the early days of Supertram, back when Meadowhall had a shuttle as far as the city centre, and the Halfway branch was being opened in instalments

For those who don't know the area, Herdings Park is next to the high rise flats which suggests a market where public transport should do well - unfortunately it's also slap bang next to the terminus for the 11/11A buses (formerly 47/48) which provide a high frequency bus service into the city centre, so I think that Hedings Park would work well with five trams per hour, but you'll struggle to get many people to wait for a half hourly tram when there's a several buses per hour (same goes for Darnall in Sheffield = how many people are going to wait for an hourly train service at a station a stone's throw from a five minute bus service?)

Middlewood terminus is next to a number of low rise flats but the ten minute tram service killed off the five/ten minute bus service that used to run that way - I feel that if Herdings Park had had a ten/twelve minute service then passenger numbers would have been significantly higher

Although it should be pointed out that the figures in the report you reference are 12 years out of date. Liverpool South Parkway at 2.9m-Is that really a failure?

 

[YorksLad12]

It’s also a good example of what should be done - ensure the public transport options from/ to a new development site are available from day one ( which almost inevitably means a period of little use) rather than forcing the potential users to establish alternative travel patterns and then expect them to change them.

Indeed, and of all the new WYCA ones Thorpe Park makes the most sense as there's an existing office park close by but lots of housing now going up around the station site. Not quite "build it and they will come" as they would be coming anyway, but definitely a bonus if you work in Leeds or York.

 

[urbophile]

Although it should be pointed out that the figures in the report you reference are 12 years out of date. Liverpool South Parkway at 2.9m-Is that really a failure?

I was surprised to see LSP listed. Pre-Covid the car park (quite a large one) was always rammed, even overflowing, every morning. Unlike most other 'Parkway' stations it is in a well-populated suburban area and attracts a large clientele, many of whom are within walking distance. Maybe the airport-link aspect has been a bit of a damp squib: there are direct buses to the city centre from the airport which are probably nearly as quick and more convenient for most. But I suspect the passenger numbers generally are well up on those of the former Garston and Allerton stations (especially the latter as the frequency and range of destinations is much greater).

 

[Ianno87]

I was surprised to see LSP listed. Pre-Covid the car park (quite a large one) was always rammed, even overflowing, every morning. Unlike most other 'Parkway' stations it is in a well-populated suburban area and attracts a large clientele, many of whom are within walking distance. Maybe the airport-link aspect has been a bit of a damp squib: there are direct buses to the city centre from the airport which are probably nearly as quick and more convenient for most. But I suspect the passenger numbers generally are well up on those of the former Garston and Allerton stations (especially the latter as the frequency and range of destinations is much greater).

TPE and East Midlands actively adding stops into their CLC fast services is a sign of a successful station.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How's patronage been at Robroyston in Scotland since it opened just under a couple of years ago? (Or is it too soon to properly say yet, due to COVID-19?)

 

[satisnek]

I'll add Willington to the list - the failure to reopen the Ivanhoe line proper to passenger services has left it a big disadvantage service wise.

Indeed, when looked at in the cold light of the 21st century, reopening the former Repton & Willington station as part of the aborted Ivanhoe project has most definitely held back further development. If a new station for Willington was being planned today, the obvious location would be where the North Staffs line crosses Etwall Road - not only is there a ready-made hourly local service but there would have been space for a car park and step-free access as well. But as one of the tiny number of passengers who travels to Willington from the Birmingham direction, I never said this...

 

[tbtc]

One other thing to watch for re passenger numbers is that there have been examples of stations which have surpassed expectations and are brought up as examples of how great new stations are (since they beat expected passenger numbers), but then the stations don't continue to grow at the same rate (e.g. you might expect a station to get 50% of passenger numbers in the first year, before growing to 100% over the next few years - but if it gets 100% of expected passenger numbers in the initial twelve months then it gets seen as a success however after a further four years when passenger numbers have only grown marginally, the headlines aren't about how it's got "5% more passengers than expected after five years", they are still about how "it got double the expected passenger numbers in its first year of operation")

Chandlers Ford doesn't seem too badly used, but the service pattern is perhaps something of an issue. It focuses on trips into Southampton, when there is also a 15-minute-interval bus service. Perhaps it needs to focus more to longer-distance destinations, such as towards London?

Perhaps electrification Eastleigh-Chandlers Ford-Romsey would allow through services towards London (e.g portion working off the Waterloo xx09 or xx39) for both Chandlers Ford and Romsey. Perhaps this would generate significant traffic?

Interesting - thanks - I've seen it listed on such things but had no local knowledge of how/why things didn't work out so well and what could be done to improve things

East Midlands Parkway does have a potentially very wide catchment area with good road connections but in many ways there’s never been much incentive to use it.

I don’t think crowds of people would suddenly flock to use it but there are improvements which could be made to make it a little more attractive. It’s never going to be used as a Park and Ride Station for leisure and shopping trips to Nottingham, Leicester or Derby because of the car park charge on top of fairly high train fares. The fares for leisure journeys for day trips to the north are often twice the price of those from Nottingham or Derby because there are no Off Peak Day Returns to Sheffield, Manchester or Leeds. Unbelievably even the fare to Birmingham is higher than it is from Nottingham. I can’t understand why the cheaper fares available from Nottingham and Derby have not been made available from EMP especially when many of the fares from Nottingham are valid via EMP anyway.

Good points there - the station doesn't stand much of a chance with with such rubbish frequencies and fares

Doubt that an InterCity Parkway-type station will ever gain many “brownie points” on the social benefits scale. An existing station in a low income, low local employment, low car ownership areA almost certainly does - even if only for a relatively small number of people.

Doubt a parkway station where a measure of success is in its attracting people to drive long distances to it from places that already have train services is going to score very highly on environmental brownie points either!

This is the problem on threads like this

A station in a small market town like Okehampton/ Galashiels (where a significant number of the passengers would have to drive from a catchment area of half an hour away) is seen as A Good Thing

A "Parkway" station near a motorway junction (where a significant number of the passengers would have to drive from a catchment area of half an hour away) is seen as A Bad Thing

If a Parkway station can attract motorists who currently drive the full way to switch to the train for part of their journey (drivers who'd not be attracted to drive into congested town centres to access their local train station, or are put off by the fact that their local town doesn't have a direct train to where they want to go) then it's taking vehicles off the road and therefore to be encouraged?

Does Kirkstall Forge get many passengers? There doesn't seem to be much there.

It's a funny one - at least a lot of the money is coming from elsewhere - I initially assumed that a Kirkstall station would be near the retail park/ Student Halls of Residence etc half a mile closer to Leeds - which seemed a much better place for a station

Although it should be pointed out that the figures in the report you reference are 12 years out of date. Liverpool South Parkway at 2.9m-Is that really a failure?

It's the most up to date list of stations above/below expected numbers that I could find - I'd be interested in something more modern if anyone knows of a publicly available one

2.9m passenger numbers is a huge number compared to most stations, but I guess there were reasons why higher numbers were expected (I don't know whether the expectation was for additional houses to be built or were based on an increased level of service or it was just one that went below average as some do - can't all be above average I guess)

I'm not sure I get your point here. Ebbw Vale steelworks stopped employing 'huge numbers' in the 1970s. It's true that a rump tinplate works employing a fraction of the workforce lingered on until 2002, but even that had gone years before the eronious BCR forecast was made.

I'm not saying the methodology is generally wrong but the closure of the steelworks doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to explaining how wrong the Ebbw Vale forecasts were.

I was just going on the information here: https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/3932/demand-forecasting-report.pdf

1. The most obvious outliers in Figure 2 are Ebbw Vale Parkway station and Shepherds Bush. The forecast demand for Ebbw Vale Parkway station was 45,000 passengers, compared to the 2008/9 actual demand of 252,000. The methodology used to forecast demand was a logit mode choice model (based on road side interviews and generalised journey times) together with an uplift applied to reflect trip generation. Two of the reasons for the under-forecast of demand have been identified as:

I The exclusion (as requested by the Strategic Rail Authority) of rail demand arising from regeneration of the area and also the assumption that the local steelworks would remain open

 

[norbitonflyer]

Watford Stadium station opened in 1982.The station's usage declined with the fortunes of the football club, and the line was in any case effectively closed little more than a decade later.

 

[Paula hewson]

Not sure where you get that from. Fares from Worcestershire Parkway to Birmingham are exactly the same as those from Worcester.

You have a very valid point with the parking, but unfortunately station parking is mostly seen as a source of additional income, rather than something that can make rail (and particularly Parkway stations) an attractive option.

Not when I used the ticket machine other day! Ticket at 8am to Brum was £15 odd unless I was mistaken.

 

[Watershed]

Not when I used the ticket machine other day! Ticket at 8am to Brum was £15 odd unless I was mistaken.

An Anytime Day Return to New Street is £12.20, the same as from Foregate Street or Shrub Hill.

The only fare around £15 would be the Off-Peak Return costing £16.80, but this would not be shown before around 9am (when it becomes valid).

 

[Sparrowman]

A few on light rail:
-Royal Albert (DLR) with very little development having occurred around the station
-Pomona (Metrolink) ditto
-Herdings Park (Supertram - still only a half-hourly service?)

With regards to Pomona, I expect that once the planned development of the immediate area begins, it will start to become substantially busier, especially as it's an interchange between the Trafford Centre and Eccles lines.

 

[RT4038]

I never understand why parkway stations have to charge you for parking as it will just encourage people to continue to drive into whichever town/city they were going to.

By all means add a bit more to the train ticket price but make parking free.

As someone who walks to the station, or takes a bus in extremis (paying a fare), I certainly don't want my ticket price increased to make up for the car park revenue lost, a car park which I will never use.

 

[Grumpy]

Cottingley really bugs me, as part of the rationale for closing it is that no-one uses it... so let's replace it with a new station 750m away which is more difficult to reach by the people who do use Cottingley. Ask this question again in five years and we can safely add White Rose Station to the list.

Whilst not disputing the madness of it all, is there any official statement which says Cottingley is to close?