I noticed that a fortnight ago, and is much more effective than what they were doing the previous day, which was to pick certain platforms and try and herd people through a ticket check - even saw one of the G4S people running across the station to check someone who had inadvertently walked off.
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Leeds - shortage of people selling tickets to arriving passengers?
- Thread starter sevenhills
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I noticed that a fortnight ago, and is much more effective than what they were doing the previous day, which was to pick certain platforms and try and herd people through a ticket check - even saw one of the G4S people running across the station to check someone who had inadvertently walked off.
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RailUK Forums
Yes, but they have
-penalty fares
-ticket offices and proper machines
-many barriers
Come to any of the towns in Yorkshire (iirc only Leeds and Bradford Int in Yorkshire have barriers) and it is a wholly different story.
Yes there is - the meagre funding given to the railways compared with down south!
Like I say I really am unfamiliar with the territory round there but someone must be able to come up with a plan to combat it - it doesnt take a genius to work it out.
And I bet G4S will be looking for work for its 20000 security staff they have trained up for after the Olympics.
185
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Speaking of staff shortages, several Northern Rail trains out of Manchester Piccadilly during tonights peak were cancelled due to 'shortage of available traincrew'.
The hourly Chester (Cheshire lines) was one of the casualties.
The hourly Chester (Cheshire lines) was one of the casualties.
sevenhills
Member
Couldnt they just get a person to work 7am-10am with a ticket machine and maybe sell crisps and tea? They would just need a 13amp socket, all mobile - so there would be no vandalism.
Dunno. Its an idea - but there would be an issue of protection for them also if lone working outside.. they would take more cash then just a coffee shop.
paul1609
Established Member
Absolutely every Southern Station with a full service has a TVM offering cash and credit card sales, TOD, this has been funded by the franchisee on the basis that it makes them money!
My local station a lonely halt on Romney Marsh with 30,000 passengers a year and 1x 2 car service an hour has full facilities on its TVM and can even sell tickets from West Yorkshire stations
http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/buying-tickets/southern-tod/
Lone working is never a good idea, which is why I think RPIs always work in teams. The best way of combatting it would be to have barriers on the closest stations, but that would mean someone has to man them.
The other problem with Northern is that they serve 400+ stations, and putting in TVMs at each is unfeasible. Even if they put them in at say 1/4 of these, then that is a lot more work for maintenance and inspections, and if they took cash, would mean someone has to go around collecting it every so often, which again costs money.
The other problem with Northern is that they serve 400+ stations, and putting in TVMs at each is unfeasible. Even if they put them in at say 1/4 of these, then that is a lot more work for maintenance and inspections, and if they took cash, would mean someone has to go around collecting it every so often, which again costs money.
paul1609
Established Member
Sorry don't think that adds up, Southern operate 161 stations and nearly a 1000 TVMs and they say that they make money for them. Why would they lose money for Northern?
Northern are installing TVMs in three instances:
1. Where a station is staffed for most of the day and the staff struggle with demand. These are cash and card TVMs.
2. Where a station is staffed for part of the day and there is increasing demand for tickets. These stations got/are getting card only TVMs.
3. At unstaffed stations which have seen an increase in patronage. These stations got/are getting card only TVMs.
The software on the Northern TVMs is less reliable than on TVMs run by Virgin and TPE, while the success of card only TVMs in the Northern area is not yet known. Virgin and TPE machines are also known to sell tickets not available on Northern machines so where there is a choice passengers usually opt for the non-Northern machines.
I'd suggest a good proportion of Northern's stations which might be suggested for TVM instalation are within the PTE areas where the fares are so much lower that sales would have to be enormous to cover costs.
That said a cash and card TVM at places like Burley Park would help tackle inaccurate fares sold inside the gateline at Leeds, and if it needed attention its hardly remote from Leeds!
paul1609
Established Member
Yep I can see that some rural Northern Stations would not be viable but they can only account for a small percentage of passengers arriving at leeds surely and then they would be on services like the S & C where my limited usage suggests that you will be visited very promptly by the conductor.
All stations in the Netherlands have TVMs, without exception. In addition, pay-as-you-go smartcards are valid for all domestic single journeys - bus and train. So there is no need ever to visit a ticket office, or even a TVM if you have auto-topup on your card. You can even topup your smartcard on many, if not most, buses with a Dutch debit card.
Even in the UK, any single journey within the zonal area in the large part of SE England under TfL jurisdiction, and some journeys outside it, can be undertaken using pay-as-you-go Oyster. So it can be done.
A train only pay-as-you-go smartcard for West Yorkshire would be considerably less expensive to implement than the Oyster card in the SE. If bus Quality Contracts get the go-ahead in West Yorkshire then it could easily be extended to buses.
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I didn't mention anything about funding. I only mentioned demographics and geography. Funding for public transport should be a given, especially for something as basic as being able to buy a ticket.
Even in the UK, any single journey within the zonal area in the large part of SE England under TfL jurisdiction, and some journeys outside it, can be undertaken using pay-as-you-go Oyster. So it can be done.
A train only pay-as-you-go smartcard for West Yorkshire would be considerably less expensive to implement than the Oyster card in the SE. If bus Quality Contracts get the go-ahead in West Yorkshire then it could easily be extended to buses.
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I didn't mention anything about funding. I only mentioned demographics and geography. Funding for public transport should be a given, especially for something as basic as being able to buy a ticket.
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They also have a surcharge to pay using banknotes or use a ticket window. Don't be giving National Rail any ideas.
sevenhills
Member
The unmaned station at Morley, 10 minutes away from Leeds, saw an increase in usage of 21% last year. 328,558 people used Morley train station in 2010/11, is this an high number for an unmaned station ???
island:1128066 said:
TVMs don't even accept banknotes. I originally thought that was a bad idea but it does mean they never run out of change. Almost everyone pays with a Dutch bank card or Maestro card anyway. That causes problems for foreigners without Maestro, although they can use OV-chipkaarts.
Ticket offices charge 0.50 euros for paying at a ticket office, whether that is in banknotes or coins. But you can top-up your OV-Chipkaart with banknotes at a ticket office without paying a fee. NS intend to scrap paper tickets.
This is going to happen, and sooner than you think. keep an eye on http://www.yorcard.co.uk
As I understand it, it has been through a very thorough pilot, and the recent renewals of concessionary passes makes them compatible. More and more bus operators have apparently installed the necessary equipment, and EYMS in Goole have used the live system.
I'm sure someone will be along soon with more comprehensive answer, but as I understand it the "production" system will go live over the next 12 months or so.
Remember a TVM costs quite a substantial amount of money to buy and install, plus the recurring cost of maintenance, electricity and also internet connection. When you think that the average fare paid on Northern services is something like £2-3, then you need a lot of these to cover costs. As Most Northern TVMs are card only, there is the additional expense of the card fees. So you can understand why Northern are reluctant to put increase the TVM stock at stations where they are not feasible to introduce.
Indeed, I think its illustrative that all the stations with passenger numbers over about 150,000 on the Yorkshire Coast Line (where fares are not PTE subsidised and where return ticket for a 6 minute journey starts from £4.60) have TVMs.
Card fees will not be significant compared to the cost of outlying machines accepting cash. To be really efficient RPIs ought to be able to restock/maintain/fault fix (non cash) TVMs, as they can effectively "work" their journey to the station, and so maximise use of time.
Yes. 328,558 would be high enough to retain an existing ticket office under the ticket office cuts proposed in the McNulty Review.
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They've put one at Greenbank and on the trains I used earlier today which called at Greenbank almost everyone who boarded was under 18 so would not have been old enough to have a debit card allowing off-line transactions.
Incidentally I noticed on going through Northwich the machine there had a bright red light on it, I'm guessing that meant it wasn't operational.
As TVMs have a fixed link any debit card can be used to make a purchase, not just offline ones.
If its the same kind of new Northern TVM as around here, that bright red light means the machine was out of service. I was told by a Guard that the green/red light is designed to be visible from the train so that the Guard knows whether passengers should have been able to purchase a ticket before boarding.
How much is the average fare on Metrolink? Indeed what about any metro system in continental Europe? Probably less than £2. They still manage to have TVMs. There are also low tech ways of selling tickets employed in mainland Europe that don't require TVMs. There are so many options. No more excuses. Anything is better than long queues on arrival. Don't forget that arrival at Leeds City station may not be the end of the journey. There may be onward connections that are put into jeopardy because of long queues.
Altrincham or Bury to Manchester is up to £6 return, Oldham to Manchester is up to £4.80 return. The cheapest possible adult fare on Metrolink is £1 for an off-peak single to the next stop (quite often about 0.5 miles away.)
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