Leeds to Halifax

[Starmill]

Not long ago, Northern took the decision to reroute tickets between Leeds and Halifax as 'via Bradford'. As far as I can tell, there was no reason to do this. There is one daily service that does not travel via Bradford, in this direction only. These are now barred. I do not see any reason to bar travel on these trains, and I suspect that Northern have simply failed to consider the existence of this train and the other journey opportunities when then changed the fare. I do not know what they thought they were going to gain from doing this.

Anyway the above is an everyday occurrence that causes customers problems, but what prompted a new thread for me is that on Sunday 4th March train services between Leeds and Halifax are diverted to run non-stop and will avoid Bradford as a result of engineering work. Of course, route Bradford tickets will still be accepted on these trains as they are diversions, and what's more only route Bradford tickets are available.

However, online journey planners simply cannot find these trains because the tickets are all routed Bradford. Thus most customers who wish to make this journey will probably choose not to travel with Northern if they book online. Customers who use Northern ticket machines will probably not be affected, but anyone using a VTEC ticket machine, as found in great number at Leeds, may be informed that they cannot use a Leeds to Halifax ticket on a Leeds to Halifax train this Sunday - if someone is able to check this out I would be very grateful.

Let this be a cautionary tale in the Law of Unintended Consequences. What is more it should be a cautionary tail in the shortcomings of the Railway Industry's data systems - or those who input data to them.

See also this thread.

Edit: updated to correct the typo highlighted by Arctic Troll and to reflect the situation more accurately as explained by Indigo2.

 

[yorkie]

This is part of the DfT/RDG's drive to make tickets "simpler" by restricting the routes we can take. Restrictive routeings of this nature are on the increase all over the Naitional Rail network.

RDG told DfT they would introduce "easements" whenever engineering work occurs, but the reality is that they do not do this (except if people kick up a stink on this forum and then they reactively implement easements; but the positive easements are never implemented quite as rapidly as the negative ones)

Northern's website will only offer rail replacement buses for this journey.

Unfortunately there is no-one with the powers to put a stop to this madness. The public are being mislead and the likes of Transport Focus don't have a clue what's going on, and don't have the powers or inclination to do anything about it.

I see no end to the mistreatment of customers by the rail industry. This is just one example out of many.

The data systems are being misused rather than the fault being with the systems themselves, I'd argue.

There should be an "any permitted" routeing for every flow.

 

[jfollows]

There is one daily service that does not travel via Halifax, in this direction only

Can you please clarify, I can't make sense of this?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think he means there is one daily through train from Leeds to Halifax that doesn't go via Bradford, being the 1926 Leeds to Halifax train.

But there are plenty of regular and reasonable journey opportunities that avoid Bradford, all day.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think he means there is one daily through train from Leeds to Halifax that doesn't go via Bradford, being the 1926 Leeds to Halifax train.

But there are plenty of regular and reasonable journey opportunities that avoid Bradford, all day.

Aside from perhaps a few enthusiasts, who would opt even for this one direct train when the ones via Bradford are quicker and more plentiful? Either side of the 19:26 are the 19:19 arriving at 19:54, or the 19:35 arriving at 20:14, which is the same time as the 19:26 arrives. For most other avoiding Bradford options changing at Brighouse you add another 5 minutes again to the journey. I realise that people here are looking to keep as many options open as possible when it comes to permissible routes, but to be honest being concerned at one path in one direction only really isn't going to change the experience for the vast majority of passengers between Leeds & Halifax.

For what it is worth I think it is sensible to keep Halifax bound passengers off the services via Brighouse, as generally these are only hourly and are already probably heavily in demand from the passengers between Leeds & Mirfield / Brighouse. With capacity such an issue it makes more sense, in my humble opinion, to route Halifax passengers via the better provisioned route via Bradford rather than encouraging them to shoehorn onto an hourly run. But that's just me.

Edit: Just to add that the 19:26 is advertised in the timetable as only running to Brighouse, no mention of it terminating at Halifax where it forms the 20:26 back to Leeds via Bradford (which will be why there is no return journey).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can you please clarify, I can't make sense of this?

It's a typo, the 1926 Leeds to Halifax travels via Dewsbury and Brighouse not via Bradford.

 

[Adam0984]

Far too many people were abusing the routing who travelled to Sowerby Bridge and the travelled via Dewsbury saying that they changed at Sowerby for Halifax when in fact they were short faring

 

[yorkie]

Far too many people were abusing the routing who travelled to Sowerby Bridge and the travelled via Dewsbury saying that they changed at Sowerby for Halifax when in fact they were short faring

Was that valid at the time? If so, it was finishing short, not short faring.

But that does not explain the reason to change the routeing to "via Bradford"; it would potentially be justification to change the routeing to "Not via Sowerby Bridge"

And if it wasn't valid via Sowerby Bridge, then that doesn't explain any of this.

....rather than encouraging them to shoehorn onto an hourly run. But that's just me.

No-one is suggesting encouraging Halifax services onto services via Dewsbury.

Edit: Just to add that the 19:26 is advertised in the timetable as only running to Brighouse, no mention of it terminating at Halifax where it forms the 20:26 back to Leeds via Bradford (which will be why there is no return journey).

It's in the timetable data as a Leeds to Halifax service (there is no doubting it is a through train from Leeds to Halifax) but how timetable publishers show it is - to some extent - up to them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But that does not explain the reason to change the routeing to "via Bradford"

If you look at the fare at Brighouse, though, you may get your answer.

 

[yorkie]

It's a lot of faffing about and removal of passenger rights to worry about 30p, but this is unfortunately typical of the way some train companies wage war against their customers.

 

[Adam0984]

Was that valid at the time? If so, it was finishing short, not short faring.

But that does not explain the reason to change the routeing to "via Bradford"; it would potentially be justification to change the routeing to "Not via Sowerby Bridge"

And if it wasn't valid via Sowerby Bridge, then that doesn't explain any of this.

No-one is suggesting encouraging Halifax services onto services via Dewsbury.

It's in the timetable data as a Leeds to Halifax service (there is no doubting it is a through train from Leeds to Halifax) but how timetable publishers show it is - to some extent - up to them.

Sorry let me rephrase that, the residents of Sowerby Bridge were buying tickets from Halifax to Leeds return but on the return were travelling via Dewsbury and changing at Sowerby Bridge for Halifax but actually leaving the station thus over travelling, I believe that you would previously before the via Bradford routing appeared would have had to change at Brighouse for it to be valid

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a lot of faffing about and removal of passenger rights to worry about 30p

I couldn't agree more. They could have even made the ANY PERMITTED the same price as from Brighouse, with a cheaper VIA BRADFORD ticket.

Ah well, typical Northern.

 

[Tetchytyke]

actually leaving the station thus over travelling, I believe that you would previously before the via Bradford routing appeared would have had to change at Brighouse for it to be valid

It was valid via Sowerby Bridge, and so people were stopping short, not over-travelling. They put an easement in to prevent travel via Sowerby Bridge, but then the Brighouse fare is still 30p higher so you have the same issue.

Seems a lot of faff for 30p, but there you go.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's a lot of faffing about and removal of passenger rights to worry about 30p, but this is unfortunately typical of the way some train companies wage war against their customers.

How is not having a permitted route for an option where there is only one train in one direction a day which practically no passengers would ever choose "waging war" with the same? I know some people here have axes to grind, and Northern are far from perfect but frankly not offering the Brighouse route seems to make sense to me, unless of course you can offer some further insight as to why it ought to be a permitted route (note, having it for a handful of enthusiasts is not reason enough IMO).

 

[yorkie]

....unless of course you can offer some further insight as to why it ought to be a permitted route...

It's a diversionary route. See attachment; it's 1 hour 23 minutes for the 10:45 bus, or 26 minutes for the 10:57 train, which requires a £7.50 West Yorkshire DayRover.

Do you really think this is acceptable?

(note, having it for a handful of enthusiasts is not reason enough IMO).

Apart from the fact its used as a diversionary route, do you disagree that some people don't just leave their house in the morning to go to work and then go home without ever going anywhere else? Customers should be able to take any reasonable route and stop off somewhere for any reason. Why shouldn't rail passengers have at least some of the flexibilities of car drivers? There is no material harm to the train companies to allow people to do this. It clearly is a reasonable route (if it wasn't, trains wouldn't be diverted that way).

You seem to justify this anti-customer act all for the sake of a 30p difference in fares (which was totally avoidable when Brighouse re-opened; the fares via both routes should have been harmonised).

 

[Spartacus]

This ones been raised before, and it used to affect most of the station on the route, you could only buy 'via Huddersfield' or, I think, 'via Leeds' tickets, while the service is advertised as going to Halifax once it has left Leeds (Like the York via Harrogate services and former Selby - Wakefield Westgate services, advertised to Brighouse until departure from Leeds).

It's far from a once a day problem though, it's an issue I've personally encountered when meeting someone for drinks in Halifax, not on the one direct train, but when you're travelling from stations between Mirfield and Leeds your best option is to travel direct via Brighouse as you have a 5 minute connection there off the Leeds - Victoria via Dewsbury services onto the Huddersfield - Leeds via Bradford services. Going via Huddersfield would add approx 25 minutes onto your journey. There's also the option of using Grand Central for the connection at Mirfield. The connection in the other direction is pretty poor at most times, but that's no reason for it not to be an option. As it happens I think there's an easement for intermediate stations now, though the fare is higher than Leeds - Halifax via Bradford for the most part, and I doubt many, if any, guards would ever have an issue with it.

It does seem crazy just because the fares are mismatched, especially because around the same time many fares were harmonised to prevent a similar thing elsewhere, such as people buying tickets to Woodlesfield for Leeds and Poppleton for York to save even more than 30p. It's a very weak argument that a direct route, with a direct service, shouldn't be a valid route to prevent a few fare dodgers when there are other options for preventing that.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's a diversionary route. See attachment; it's 1 hour 23 minutes for the 10:45 bus, or 26 minutes for the 10:57 train, which requires a £7.50 West Yorkshire DayRover.

Do you really think this is acceptable?


Apart from the fact its used as a diversionary route, do you disagree that some people don't just leave their house in the morning to go to work and then go home without going anywhere else? Customers should be able to take any reasonable route and stop off somewhere for any reason. Why shouldn't rail passengers have at least some of the flexibilities of car drivers? There is no material harm to the train companies to allow people to do this. It clearly is a reasonable route (if it wasn't, trains wouldn't be diverted that way).

You seem to justify this anti-customer act all for the sake of a 30p difference in fares (which was totally avoidable when Brighouse re-opened; the fares via both routes should have been harmonised).

Are people being forced to use the direct service or do they have a choice? The option to use the regular route is there, albeit by bus and an obviously longer journey. This is what happens with planned blockades, passengers face longer journeys than usual, or seek alternatives that may be more expensive.

Frankly I'm suprised Northern are even calling at Halifax and not just heading straight to Sowerby Bridge and bussing passingers to and from Halifax. But all that notwithstanding to answer your question, is it fair? Yes because people have a choice, use the regular route by bus and take a bit longer (note there are direct buses to Halifax which take about an hour), or if in a rush pay the £7.50. An occasional disruption like this is not in itself justification for making the route permissible in normal service when a same fare option is available. If no bustitution was available then I would expect the normal fare to be allowed.

As for people breaking journeys between Leeds / Brighouse / Halifax, I seriously doubt that this is a massively demanded flow. An occasional journey by someone does not warrant making it a permissible route. To be honest I read a lot of these discussions on permissible routes and find myself asking just who other than those arguing over them on here actually ever consider using them. This is definitely one of those.

 

[yorkie]

Are people being forced to use the direct service or do they have a choice? The option to use the regular route is there, albeit by bus and an obviously longer journey. This is what happens with planned blockades, passengers face longer journeys than usual, or seek alternatives that may be more expensive.

Frankly I'm suprised Northern are even calling at Halifax and not just heading straight to Sowerby Bridge and bussing passingers to and from Halifax. But all that notwithstanding to answer your question, is it fair? Yes because people have a choice, use the regular route by bus and take a bit longer (note there are direct buses to Halifax which take about an hour), or if in a rush pay the £7.50. An occasional disruption like this is not in itself justification for making the route permissible in normal service when a same fare option is available. If no bustitution was available then I would expect the normal fare to be allowed.

As for people breaking journeys between Leeds / Brighouse / Halifax, I seriously doubt that this is a massively demanded flow. An occasional journey by someone does not warrant making it a permissible route. To be honest I read a lot of these discussions on permissible routes and find myself asking just who other than those arguing over them on here actually ever consider using them. This is definitely one of those.

Wow, you really are defending an apparent £7.50 charge to use the a 26 minute train vs the normal £4.90 fare to use a rail replacement bus taking over an hour.

I hardly think that wanting to do a 17 mile journey in 26 minutes instead of over an hour counts as being "in a rush", but if you are going to be totally unreasonable and unrealistic then there is clearly not much point in me trying to reason with you. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Bantamzen]

Wow, you really are defending an apparent £7.50 charge to use the a 26 minute train vs the normal £4.90 fare to use a rail replacement bus taking over an hour.

I hardly think that wanting to do a 17 mile journey in 26 minutes instead of over an hour counts as being "in a rush", but if you are going to be totally unreasonable and unrealistic then there is clearly not much point in me trying to reason with you. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Like I said, Northern might well have not pathed the diverted trains via Halifax leaving said passengers no choice but to use the bus. But it is what it is, those passengers have a choice, it hardly constitutes a war against them by Northern.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There have been some very creative uses of the 18 or so characters available for routes. Far from an easy change with some very unexpected problems being thrown up especially by route 01000 "."

 

[xotGD]

If the diverted trains are first stop Halifax, how are passengers meant to know if they are routed via Bradford or not?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The real issue is not the ticket restriction, though. It's that Northern haven't been organised enough to put a temporary easement in for the affected period. That's really sloppy, and is what is causing the online retail headache.

 

[Bantamzen]

If the diverted trains are first stop Halifax, how are passengers meant to know if they are routed via Bradford or not?

Because the screens will display Halifax as the first stop?

The real issue is not the ticket restriction, though. It's that Northern haven't been organised enough to put a temporary easement in for the affected period. That's really sloppy, and is what is causing the online retail headache.

In reality I don't imagine Northern will be aggressively enforcing this. Anyone boarding a direct train on the date in question probably isn't going to find themselves being charged an excess or fined. Its not an ideal situation I admit, but it is a once in a blue moon happening that will probably go unoticed by the vast majority of passengers. Only those people watching Northern's every move for a chance to have a pop at them will be concerned.

 

[robbeech]

Because the screens will display Halifax as the first stop?

No, that’s how you or I or the majority of people on here would work this out. We make up a very small percentage of passengers on these trains. The majority of people wouldn’t have the faintest idea whether the train was via Bradford.

 

[yorksrob]

Far too many people were abusing the routing who travelled to Sowerby Bridge and the travelled via Dewsbury saying that they changed at Sowerby for Halifax when in fact they were short faring

Perhaps the Sowerby Bridge fare was too expensive.

 

[lejog]

The real issue is not the ticket restriction, though. It's that Northern haven't been organised enough to put a temporary easement in for the affected period. That's really sloppy, and is what is causing the online retail headache.

True. While NRE's at least showing the trains that day, the W Yorkshire Day Rover isn't available online, so neither Northern's own journey planner or its mobile app are even showing any Halifax to Leeds train services that day, only the bus service.

So Northern are running a service, but hiding it from their own passengers!

 

[xotGD]

I can picture the scene:

'Is this the train to Leeds?'

'Yes, but you can't travel on it.'

'Why not?'

'Because it doesn't go to Bradford.'

'But I'm not going to Bradford, I'm going to Leeds.'

'If you are travelling to Leeds you have to catch a train that goes to Bradford.'

'???'

 

[Tetchytyke]

Its not an ideal situation I admit, but it is a once in a blue moon happening that will probably go unoticed by the vast majority of passengers.

Those who buy on the day will be none the wiser.

The problem is that the online planners aren't showing the trains, aren't showing the ticket, or both.

It's just sloppy from Northern.

 

[Bantamzen]

True. While NRE's at least showing the trains that day, the W Yorkshire Day Rover isn't available online, so neither Northern's own journey planner or its mobile app are even showing any Halifax to Leeds train services that day, only the bus service.

So Northern are running a service, but hiding it from their own passengers!

Quite why Northern have chosen not to advertise it is best known to them, however the existence of the duplicate bus services suggests to me at least least that they are planning a contingency. Given fairly tight turnarounds at Rochdale, and trying to get the diverted services between the TPEs which as we all know are prone to delay I wouldn't be surprised that this decision, if it was a decision an not an oversight, was taken because they may well have to terminate some Leeds bound trains at Halifax for timetable recovery. Looking at the times, the buses are scheduled to depart a few minutes after the diverted services so read into that what you will.

I can picture the scene:

'Is this the train to Leeds?'

'Yes, but you can't travel on it.'

'Why not?'

'Because it doesn't go to Bradford.'

'But I'm not going to Bradford, I'm going to Leeds.'

'If you are travelling to Leeds you have to catch a train that goes to Bradford.'

'???'

Or more likely (to give at least some credit to Northern staff):

'Is this the train to Leeds?'

'Yes'

'Thanks'

Like I said, I seriously doubt most Northern staff and crew will be rigorously enforcing this. More likely they will just let people on regardless.

Those who buy on the day will be none the wiser.

The problem is that the online planners aren't showing the trains, aren't showing the ticket, or both.

It's just sloppy from Northern.

Maybe it is sloppy, I'll concede that. But a lot will depend on how things actually happen on the day. For example the diverted services *might* be treated as pick up & set down only at Halifax and not be advertised on the CIS as calling at Halifax. So punters at Leeds will simply see a bus to Halifax and get on that, and the same might be true at the other end. And as I've suggested earlier, perhaps Northern are expecting problems with keeping to the timetables and are hedging their bets with the duplicate bus and train services. If they didn't offer a bus service and several services fell well behind and are terminated short plenty would bemoan the fact they didn't have a fleet of buses on standby just in case.

 

[lejog]

Quite why Northern have chosen not to advertise it is best known to them, however the existence of the duplicate bus services suggests to me at least least that they are planning a contingency. Given fairly tight turnarounds at Rochdale, and trying to get the diverted services between the TPEs which as we all know are prone to delay I wouldn't be surprised that this decision, if it was a decision an not an oversight, was taken because they may well have to terminate some Leeds bound trains at Halifax for timetable recovery. Looking at the times, the buses are scheduled to depart a few minutes after the diverted services so read into that what you will.

.

1) Northern are advertising the trains concerned - there's a replacement timetable (pdf.) Their journey planners are showing the trains from stations west of Halifax running to Halifax and Leeds and indeed for through journeys from Halifax to say London via Leeds. As Arctic Troll says they just haven't issued an easement for journey planners for Halifax to Leeds tickets, so its only Halifax to Leeds journeys that aren't showing.

2) You would hope the bus services leave shortly after the trains, so that passengers from the west for Bradford etc don't face a long wait.

Being a fairly regular passenger on diverted Calder Valley services via Dewsbury, I don't agree that these cause signficant problems - it is perfectly easy for Network Rail to "flight" fast Calder Valley services 2 to 3 minutes after (or before) a TPE service. This is not to say there is spare capacity for useful extra TPE servces, unless you wish to run TPE services at 3 minute intervals. And of course its a Sunday, so there's only 1 stopping service - its the mixture of slow and fast trains that cause problems.