Liability if unable to board due to overcrowding

[radamfi]

If you are unable to board a train due to overcrowding and end up getting the next train which means you arrive more than 30 minutes late at your destination are you entitled to Delay Repay? This can easily happen when boarding trains at Clapham Junction in the evening peak in the event of short formations. If so, this would not easily be verified by the office which checks against the train running records as there would be no record of delay.

Similarly, do the rules for Advance tickets cater for this reason for delay? That is if you miss the designated reserved service due to an inability to board an earlier unreservable connecting service.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm not really clued up on this, but I believe the TOC will probably just say you could have boarded (even if it was physically impossible) and thus no payment is due.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you are unable to board a train due to overcrowding and end up getting the next train which means you arrive more than 30 minutes late at your destination are you entitled to Delay Repay? This can easily happen when boarding trains at Clapham Junction in the evening peak in the event of short formations. If so, this would not easily be verified by the office which checks against the train running records as there would be no record of delay....

I think it would depend on the reason for the overcrowding. If it was due to a short formed train (compared to it's usual/regular size) then I think you would stand a good chance as it is within the control of the TOC. If it is due to large group of tourists having a day out, probably not.

....Similarly, do the rules for Advance tickets cater for this reason for delay? That is if you miss the designated reserved service due to an inability to board an earlier unreservable connecting service.

In terms of advance fares, if you "arrived in good time to catch the first booked train" and were "delayed whilst travelling", you can "use later services to complete your journey", however, you might wish to get your ticket endorsed by the train guard.

 

[mickey]

I think it would also be affected by the actions of staff at the station concerned. If they were advising people to hold back and catch a later train there is a good chance they'd be willing to endorse your ticket, but if you just decide to do it yourself because you don't fancy cramming yourself in probably not.

 

[wintonian]

SWT have been known to play an announcement stating that the train is full and not to board it, can't remember the wording as I think I have only ever heard it 2 or 3 times.

 

[Flamingo]

No idea, nobody has ever presented me with that one before!

Ring a few TOC's customer services and ask them, let us know what they say.

 

[wintonian]

No idea, nobody has ever presented me with that one before!

Ring a few TOC's customer services and ask them, let us know what they say.

Then do the opposite of what they say and you should be ok.

 

[Flamingo]

Then do the opposite of what they say and you should be ok.

You cynic - but you're probably right!

 

[newbie babs]

I was waiting at Derby last year and the announcement came over that the train before had been cancelled and if anyone was going to Sheffield not to get on the train approaching as it was near full but to go to another platform. I think it was going Newcastle not sure just wanted to get home.

It took forever to get home. 2 hours later than planned

 

[Urban Gateline]

SWT have been known to play an announcement stating that the train is full and not to board it, can't remember the wording as I think I have only ever heard it 2 or 3 times.

Yep, normally at CLJ, the most common offender is the 18:27 SWT Service to Exeter St Davids.

"We're sorry to announce that the 18:27 SWT Service to Exeter St. Davids is full and standing"

This one is 6 coaches but always seems to be full, the ones before and after, platform staff normally make a manual announcement asking passengers for Woking not to board this service as it is meant for those going much further who otherwise wouldn't get a seat!

 

[wintonian]

Yep, normally at CLJ, the most common offender is the 18:27 SWT Service to Exeter St Davids.

"We're sorry to announce that the 18:27 SWT Service to Exeter St. Davids is full and standing"

This one is 6 coaches but always seems to be full, the ones before and after, platform staff normally make a manual announcement asking passengers for Woking not to board this service as it is meant for those going much further who otherwise wouldn't get a seat!

Tagged onto the end of the auto announcement I thought was something like ..."please do not board this train"?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Tagged onto the end of the auto announcement I thought was something like ..."please do not board this train"?

Yes that sounds about right! We normally hear over our staff radios when a train is full and standing, the Waterloo ICC seem to communicate with CLJ control.

 

[wintonian]

Yes that sounds about right! We normally hear over our staff radios when a train is full and standing, the Waterloo ICC seem to communicate with CLJ control.

I might substitute my use of the word 'train' for 'service' having thought about it a bit more.

 

[thefab444]

The usual wording of the automated station announcement is "I'm sorry to inform you that this service has been reported as full and standing". There may well be an automated announcement on the train that can be triggered by the guard but I've never heard it.

The weekdays 18:20 Waterloo - Exeter is supposed to be booked for a 158 + two 159s, although at least once when I've been on it in the past it has been three 159s and still extremely busy.

 

[12CSVT]

SWT have been known to play an announcement stating that the train is full and not to board it, can't remember the wording as I think I have only ever heard it 2 or 3 times.

This raises another question. If you are advised/instructed not to board a train due to overcrowding but decide to get on it regardless, could they force you to disembark ?

 

[sheff1]

I was waiting at Derby last year and the announcement came over that the train before had been cancelled and if anyone was going to Sheffield not to get on the train approaching as it was near full but to go to another platform.

I have occasionally heard similar manual announcements, but they never mention anything about ticket type(s). I am sure people holding EMT only tickets would, in good faith, get on a XC train in these circs or vice versa. Mind you, if the trains are that full I doubt there would be an onboard check anyway !

 

[wintonian]

This raises another question. If you are advised/instructed not to board a train due to overcrowding but decide to get on it regardless, could they force you to disembark ?

I was thinking something similar earlier.

Could an automated announcement for the purposes of the NCoC and railway bylaw be interpreted as an instruction from an authorised member of staff?

 

[jetice]

I have occasionally heard similar manual announcements, but they never mention anything about ticket type(s). I am sure people holding EMT only tickets would, in good faith, get on a XC train in these circs or vice versa. Mind you, if the trains are that full I doubt there would be an onboard check anyway !

Would Asda send you over to sainsburys to pay if their checkouts were full? Why do people think it is OK to travel with a ticket only valid for one specific TOC on another TOCs train?

 

[Yew]

Would Asda send you over to sainsburys to pay if their checkouts were full? Why do people think it is OK to travel with a ticket only valid for one specific TOC on another TOCs train?

Because you can pay for a single ticket, and travel on multiple TOC's

 

[yorkie]

Would Asda send you over to sainsburys to pay if their checkouts were full? Why do people think it is OK to travel with a ticket only valid for one specific TOC on another TOCs train?

Is there a National Supermarket organisation and common conditions, with vouchers on common stock?

If I am travelling with EMT from St Pancras, I can go and pay at FCC's "checkouts", or vice-versa. What's wrong with that?

And worse, you can end up boarding a train with Southern written all over it, at somewhere like Gatwick Airport or East Croydon, only to discover it's actually an FCC service. I can't recall entering a supermarket with "TESCO" written all over it, only to discover that as soon as I entered the doors, someone was threatening me with harsh warnings because it's actually an Asda.

Then you get TOCs who actually deny passengers the right to travel on their trains despite having a ticket that is apparently valid on trains of that TOC. I'm thinking of Southern here. Only in the rail industry does that happen!

"I have a Tesco voucher, what's wrong with it? are you not Tesco?"
"We're Express"
"Yes, Tesco Express"
"Special rules apply, we have been Express for 25 years!"
"Well, a different company ran this shop was before, but for the past 3 years this shop has been operated by Tesco, and look, that poster there says it's owned by Tesco and your website says that too"
"Well, it isn't valid because we're Express, but I'll let you off on this occasion"

(based on a REAL conversation I witnessed between a forum member and a ticket inspector on board a Southern operated train branded "Express"!)

 

[jon0844]

I was quite upset to fill up with petrol at a Tesco Express and then get told they don't give clubcard points. A simple sticker on the pump would have sufficed.

I accept there are probably T&Cs that make this clear, so I didn't kick up a fuss but I can imagine loads of people being caught out, especially as I am sure they used to.

 

[island]

If there's Esso branding they don't give points.

 

[mickey]

I was quite upset to fill up with petrol at a Tesco Express and then get told they don't give clubcard points. A simple sticker on the pump would have sufficed.

I accept there are probably T&Cs that make this clear, so I didn't kick up a fuss but I can imagine loads of people being caught out, especially as I am sure they used to.

No Tesco Express has a petrol station. Some ESSO petrol stations have Tesco Express stores attached; the big red ESSO branding usually gives this away!

To throw something else into the works though... Sainsbury's often send me 'save £X' coupons through the post. I can take them into Tesco, where they are scanned at the till and money deducted from my bill. (I know why and everything, but it does kind of stir up some of the comments above... )

 

[jetice]

Because you can pay for a single ticket, and travel on multiple TOC's

I was referring to tickets which have e.g. route ec only and people think ok to get onboard say xc train....I am aware most tickets are any route! I thought questioner was presuming ok to get on any train with any ticket.

 

[sheff1]

Why do people think it is OK to travel with a ticket only valid for one specific TOC on another TOCs train?

Because they are told to do so by an 'authorised person' !!


.... or, in some cases, by a police officer. If you held a XC ticket, but were told by an officer to catch the EMT train instead, do you really think trying to explain that your ticket was only valid on XC, and you should therefore be allowed to board the XC train, would get you very far ? More likely to get you to a police cell I suggest.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And worse, you can end up boarding a train with Southern written all over it, at somewhere like Gatwick Airport or East Croydon, only to discover it's actually an FCC service. I can't recall entering a supermarket with "TESCO" written all over it, only to discover that as soon as I entered the doors, someone was threatening me with harsh warnings because it's actually an Asda.

Then you get TOCs who actually deny passengers the right to travel on their trains despite having a ticket that is apparently valid on trains of that TOC. I'm thinking of Southern here. Only in the rail industry does that happen!
"I have a Tesco voucher, what's wrong with it? are you not Tesco?"
"We're Express"
"Yes, Tesco Express"
"Special rules apply, we have been Express for 25 years!"
"Well, a different company ran this shop was before, but for the past 3 years this shop has been operated by Tesco, and look, that poster there says it's owned by Tesco and your website says that too"
"Well, it isn't valid because we're Express, but I'll let you off on this occasion"

(based on a REAL conversation I witnessed between a forum member and a ticket inspector on board a Southern operated train branded "Express"!)

I was surprised the other day to find it does not only apply to the rail industry. I had a WH Smith's gift token and offered it for payment at a WH Smith branded store at a motorway service station. It was refused on the grounds that 'they were a franchise'. As I only had a few coins on me the intended purchases, including a cup of coffee, were left on the counter.

 

[mickey]

should therefore be allowed to board the XC train, would get you very far ? More likely to get you to a police cell I suggest.

I highly doubt this bit, unless you were rude or something in the process. Most police officers know the ticket system is far from simple and are more likely to laugh at you than arrest you I think.

However, instructions by 'authorised people' are very interesting. I have on more than one occasion asked platform staff at (e.g) York which platform my train will leave from, and am always given instructions for the next to leave (usually XC/EC). However, I know I have a TPE-only ticket and always make sure I then ask 'Is this a Transpennine train?', which gets me nothing but a funny look, a thought, and an instruction to go to a different platform entirely. If I took their first answer, though, would I be in the wrong? Would it be different if I showed them my ticket and they still sent me to the EC train because they didn't look at the routing?

 

[First class]

This Condition is relevant IMO:

59. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these
Conditions.

So even if a member of staff says you can board (an invalid) train, the Conditions of Carriage are still breached...

 

[sheff1]

I highly doubt this bit, unless you were rude or something in the process. Most police officers know the ticket system is far from simple and are more likely to laugh at you than arrest you I think.

In my experience officers attempting to deal with 100s of people in a volatile situation are more likely to threaten arrest than laugh if you don't follow their instructions.

However, instructions by 'authorised people' are very interesting. I have on more than one occasion asked platform staff at (e.g) York which platform my train will leave from, and am always given instructions for the next to leave (usually XC/EC). However, I know I have a TPE-only ticket and always make sure I then ask 'Is this a Transpennine train?', which gets me nothing but a funny look, a thought, and an instruction to go to a different platform entirely. If I took their first answer, though, would I be in the wrong? Would it be different if I showed them my ticket and they still sent me to the EC train because they didn't look at the routing?

This is a bit different though - here you, as an individual, are seeking advice. I was referring to cases where authorised persons instruct all passengers for a particular destination to catch a specific train without any reference to the ticket held.

 

[All Line Rover]

Then you get TOCs who actually deny passengers the right to travel on their trains despite having a ticket that is apparently valid on trains of that TOC. I'm thinking of Southern here. Only in the rail industry does that happen!

"I have a Tesco voucher, what's wrong with it? are you not Tesco?"
"We're Express"
"Yes, Tesco Express"
"Special rules apply, we have been Express for 25 years!"
"Well, a different company ran this shop was before, but for the past 3 years this shop has been operated by Tesco, and look, that poster there says it's owned by Tesco and your website says that too"
"Well, it isn't valid because we're Express, but I'll let you off on this occasion"

(based on a REAL conversation I witnessed between a forum member and a ticket inspector on board a Southern operated train branded "Express"!)

Yorkie, I don't think that's the best example to use. I trust you don't shop at Tesco.

In actual fact, Tesco do have special rules for their Express stores, and don't accept a number of vouchers that are valid in large stores!

 

[richw]

Tesco will acept all rival vouchers as well in their big stores, as long as you meet the required criteria, nothing like capturing your rivals customers!