Limit on SailRail passengers on a sailing

[gray1404]

Is a ferry company able to put a limit on a number of spaces on a sailing for customers with SailRail tickets? Even if these tickets are walk up tickets?

I purchased a SailRail ticket from Manchester to Douglas Isle of Man 26/05/17 for travel 27/05/17. I phoned the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and said I had a SailRail ticket and would like to make foot passenger reservations.

I was advised that all the SailRail quota has been used up for all of the sailings on 27/05/17. I was told though that there were still seats available at 'standard fares' on my chosen sailings. I asked to speak to a Supervisor and the chap happily put me through but before he did he asked if the final destination on my rail ticket is Douglas IOM. The answer is yes.

So I spoke to a friendly Supervisor who took a few moments to "release some more SailRail quota for my sailing" and I was booked on. She said, very politely, next time to insist the station booked office calls them to book my space on the ferry before I give them the money for the tickets so I know I have a space. Sounds like I got a space as I had a ticket already.

Is it right the ferry company is restricting such numbers on SailRail tickets when there are still foot passenger spaces remaining? For the IOM SailRail tickets only walk ups are available.

When collecting my tickets I received counted place reservations to/from Liverpool Landing Stage - Douglas IOM for the dates and times of my sailings. However, I think these are meaningless on this route.

In addition, my ticket origin on outward and destination on return is printed as Manchester O Rd. I would have expected it to be Manchester Stations (given it is not an advance ticket).

 

[najaB]

Is a ferry company able to put a limit on a number of spaces on a sailing for customers with SailRail tickets? Even if these tickets are walk up tickets?

Yes. Sail Rail tickets are always sold 'subject to available space'. It's up to the ferry company to decide their definition of 'available'.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is obviously a maximum number of passengers that can be carried and this would be shared between the different sales channels. In this case I would think there was higher than usual demand (TT spectators?) and the SailRail quota was used up. The supervisor reviewed total loadings for the sailing in question and decided there was room for more SailRail ticket holders.

 

[Hadders]

An archived copy of 'The Manual' gives the following guidance. Although it is from 2013 I doubt it's changed.

http://nfm16.nationalrail.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/tm_shipping_links/1163.html

Reservations are compulsory on all sailings. Station staff must contact IOMSPC on 01624 661661 for reservations if reservations are not available. Those customers without Boat/Seacat reservations may not be able to travel.

 

[Wallsendmag]

We were always Told to sell these only with reservations , if the customer wanted to change them fine but we always advised them that reservations were compulsory


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[najaB]

We were always Told to sell these only with reservations , if the customer wanted to change them fine but we always advised them that reservations were compulsory

Interestingly, Liverpool-Douglas tickets aren't reservation compulsory as compared to Liverpool-Dublin and Liverpool-Belfast which are.

I wonder if that's a mistake.

 

[gray1404]

When collecting my tickets I received counted place reservations to/from Liverpool Landing Stage - Douglas IOM for the dates and times of my sailings. However, I think these are meaningless on this route.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Thus causing staff in booking office to think a reservation has been made for the ferry.

Is it an issuing error my ticket origin /destination printed as Manchester O Rd rather than Manchester Stations?

 

[Wallsendmag]

When collecting my tickets I received counted place reservations to/from Liverpool Landing Stage - Douglas IOM for the dates and times of my sailings. However, I think these are meaningless on this route.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Thus causing staff in booking office to think a reservation has been made for the ferry.

Is it an issuing error my ticket origin /destination printed as Manchester O Rd rather than Manchester Stations?

IOMSPC reservations for Rail Sail can only be obtained by phone , usually after asking for just about every detail of the customer apart from inside leg measurement. The Manchester station thing may be part of RDG degrouping of stations project.

 

[gray1404]

RDG degrouping of stations project - another attempt to take choice away from passengers. Perhaps someone else has some more information on this.

Regarding the SPC Sailrail quota it is a shame they place a limit on it when there are still seats available. It could result in seats sailing empty and passengers with Sailrail tickets being told they can't sail. I'm glad common sense was used here and they were really nice about it. I suppose as I was calling 6pm the night before for an 11am sailing next day, it was possible for them to make an informed decision.

It has never been a problem before, but it is TT season.

 

[Hadders]

RDG degrouping of stations project - another attempt to take choice away from passengers. Perhaps someone else has some more information on this.

Regarding the SPC Sailrail quota it is a shame they place a limit on it when there are still seats available. It could result in seats sailing empty and passengers with Sailrail tickets being told they can't sail. I'm glad common sense was used here and they were really nice about it. I suppose as I was calling 6pm the night before for an 11am sailing next day, it was possible for them to make an informed decision.

It has never been a problem before, but it is TT season.

The degrouping is supposedly to make things more simple. For example London Terminals-Crewe (route London Midland Only) is now London Euston-Crewe (route London Midland only). It makes looking up fares in Avantix Traveller more difficult as you now have to check London Terminals and London Euston.

As for SailRail remember this could cause problems for non-SailRail foot passengers. If more quota was made available for SailRail then therewould be fewer tickets available for normal foot passengers (who I suspect are the majority). I'm certain the systems won't be integrated...

 

[island]

RDG degrouping of stations project - another attempt to take choice away from passengers. Perhaps someone else has some more information on this.

It is a result of passenger feedback that origins and destinations such as "London Terminals", "Manchester Stns", "Manchester Ctlz", and "Glasgow Cen/Qst" were "confusing railway jargon" and they would prefer a "simple ticket structure" that lets them know "exactly where they stand".

In Manchester specifically, I seem to recall a thread on this forum from some months ago where a passenger was charged up for travelling to Manchester Airport on a Manchester Stns ticket. We of course know here that Manchester Airport is not part of Manchester Stns, but random punters do not.

 

[gray1404]

Re Sailrail: Its a shame that the systems are not integrated so the seats can come from a common pool. SailRail tickets on that route are very popular and cost more then special offer foot loose fares.

Degrouping is going to cause problems. In my example I should be able to travel into any Manchester station. This is going to remove passenger choice. There are many routes where one can arrive in one terminal and return from another.

 

[BestWestern]

So we are to degroup 'London Terminals'? One has to ask, what is the point? Is a ticket from X to Waterloo going to be priced differently to a ticket to Vic or to Paddington? If not, does a passenger commit an offence by going 'off route'? Do they need to zero excess in order to arrive into a different terminal station to that printed on their ticket?

Sounds nonsense to me!

 

[SeanG]

Its TT so pretty clear that the boat would be full.

Next year's TT boats will be full in a week's time, or whenever the Steam Packet release them

 

[gray1404]

Its TT so pretty clear that the boat would be full.

Next year's TT boats will be full in a week's time, or whenever the Steam Packet release them

Its not clear at all that the boat would be full just because its TT. The IOM SPC put on a lot of additional sailings to cope with demand and, even on the sailings at the peak of this years TT, there are still fares available on the Steam Packet (mostly at Standard fares, but also some Footloose special offer fares shown).

If one was wishing to travel with a car or motorbike then that is a different matter. They do get fully booked, but this is not the case for foot passengers. I am not saying it is never the case but it is not as common as is being made out. Even on the day of travel during the TT, it is highly likely a foot passenger could turn up a the terminal shortly before travel without a ticket and be able to buy a Standard Fare and there be space.

The discussion here was about Sail Rail quota. As it happens I have just called SPC and made another Sail Rail reservation returning the day after the TT finishes. I was offered every departure that day as an option (space on a sailings ). Personally, I think given the price of the Sail Rail fares they should be treated as being on a similar par as SPC Standard Fares and come from a common pool.

This was my frustration when I had problems. The ticket I was travelling on was £70 - its not like it was a £38 return footloose fare. But all's well that ends well hey.

 

[najaB]

Personally, I think given the price of the Sail Rail fares they should be treated as being on a similar par as SPC Standard Fares and come from a common pool.

I don't know about the IOMSC but Stenaline take a significant revenue hit if we assume that SailRail passengers would have bought foot passenger tickets directly from Stena. A Dundee-Belfast Anytime Day Single is £35. A Dundee-Stranraer Anytime Day Single is £65.80 and a Cairnryan-Belfast Stenaline foot passenger fare is £24.

Even if they get 50% of the SailRail revenue they're 'out of pocket' by £7.50 so there's no incentive for them to make more SailRail tickets available.

 

[Ianno87]

So we are to degroup 'London Terminals'? One has to ask, what is the point? Is a ticket from X to Waterloo going to be priced differently to a ticket to Vic or to Paddington? If not, does a passenger commit an offence by going 'off route'? Do they need to zero excess in order to arrive into a different terminal station to that printed on their ticket?

Sounds nonsense to me!

Problem is, punters commonly make an assumption about what 'London Terminals' means. Sometimes people assume that you may arrive into Waterloo and transfer by tube to Euston on the ticket for example.Or people do not go looking for Thameslink services to Gatwick from London Victoria, for example.

Where a ticket only is de facto valid into one terminal anyway (either via a route/TOC restriction, or there only being one 'London' permitted route from the station in question), then selling a ticket to London Terminals is confusing.

I've even had to explain to staff whem trying to buy a ticket from St Pancras LL to Brighton via Thameslink that, no, a London Terminals ticket will not suffice!

Remember, us experts/enthusiasts on here know what London Terminals does and does not mean. Joe Public often does not, and does not have time/intetest to look up these things.

 

[najaB]

Remember, us experts/enthusiasts on here know what London Terminals does and does not mean. Joe Public often does not, and does not have time/intetest to look up these things.

Joe Public also normally searches for 'London Victoria to Cardiff' rather than 'London Terminals to Cardiff'...

 

[philthetube]

Sailings from Fleetwood do get full, 2 or 3 coaches make a big difference to loadings, (or often coach parties without coaches) The last time I travelled one lorry driver had to leave his girlfriend behind because there was no space for her.

Also the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company will not allow the ship to become full of foot passengers behind then have to leave cars behind because of the profits which would be lost carting empty car space across the Irish sea.

 

[gray1404]

I don't know about the IOMSC but Stenaline take a significant revenue hit if we assume that SailRail passengers would have bought foot passenger tickets directly from Stena. A Dundee-Belfast Anytime Day Single is £35. A Dundee-Stranraer Anytime Day Single is £65.80 and a Cairnryan-Belfast Stenaline foot passenger fare is £24.

Even if they get 50% of the SailRail revenue they're 'out of pocket' by £7.50 so there's no incentive for them to make more SailRail tickets available.

Thing is though, although say they were £7.50 out of pocket, there is no assurances that the said passengers would still have travelled by ferry if not for the Sail Rail fares. What I am saying is that by virtue of providing point to point tickets, Sail Rail creates journeys that would otherwise not have been made by ferry. In short, the Steam Packet Company is better off financially by taking part in the scheme.

 

[gray1404]

Sailings from Fleetwood do get full, 2 or 3 coaches make a big difference to loadings, (or often coach parties without coaches) The last time I travelled one lorry driver had to leave his girlfriend behind because there was no space for her.

Also the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company will not allow the ship to become full of foot passengers behind then have to leave cars behind because of the profits which would be lost carting empty car space across the Irish sea.

Do you mean the sailing to/from Heysham? I am surprised that the lorry driver had not secured reservations for him and his partner in advance of travel. Yes, that is to be expected regarding car space never being compromised. However, overall there are way more spaces for foot passengers vs cars on the Isle of Man route.

 

[philthetube]

Do you mean the sailing to/from Heysham? I am surprised that the lorry driver had not secured reservations for him and his partner in advance of travel. Yes, that is to be expected regarding car space never being compromised. However, overall there are way more spaces for foot passengers vs cars on the Isle of Man route.

Sorry, did mean Heysham, though I have been from Fleetwood many moons ago.

I suspect the Lorry driver never gave a thought to the ship being full, his company would have booked his lorry on, it wouldn't surprise me if a second person is entitled to travel free with a lorry anyway.

I have just looked at the web site for Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and it shows the BEN-MY-CHREE, (the ship which operates from Heysham) as having capacity for 275 vehicles and 666 people, passengers and crew so not that much room for foot passengers when loaded.

 

[najaB]

I have just looked at the web site for Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and it shows the BEN-MY-CHREE, (the ship which operates from Heysham) as having capacity for 275 vehicles and 666 people, passengers and crew so not that much room for foot passengers when loaded.

Especially if a few of those vehicles are coaches.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In short, the Steam Packet Company is better off financially by taking part in the scheme.

And that is why they haven't withdrawn from the scheme.

However during TT week the boats get so full that restrictions have to be put in place. I don't really see what the complaint is. TT has crowds of 50,000, a fair chunk of whom take their own cars and bikes, plus all the other traffic that the Isle of Man requires.

But not every sailing will be as full as others. Mad Sunday departures from Douglas are fairly quiet, for some reason...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's not just the TT period that gets busy.

I have just booked some tickets to Douglas via Heysham for somebody in July. Going out on the 25th July was fine, but the return sailing on the 31st July was apparently full with no rail and sail reservations available. Even the steam packet's own website had the Douglas to Heysham boat on the 31st at the highest price tier with no special offer fares on that sailing. Other sailings had the cheaper tickets available.

I phoned the steam packet booking line who made 4 spaces available and made the reservation, but by doing so they have accepted a lot less money than they would have done by selling a full price foot passenger ticket currently advertised on their website for the same sailing.

 

[gray1404]

You say that you phone Steam Packet who made spaces available but my question is, how did you know the sailing had no sail-rail spaces available before you phoned them? i.e. I thought it was only possible to find this information out my speaking to them.

 

[gray1404]

The Steam Packet must have reviewed the sailings out of Douglas to Heysham on 31 July. I am aware that they do review their loadings as a matter of course. All departures out of Douglas for 31 July now have special offer fares offered.

 

[najaB]

You say that you phone Steam Packet who made spaces available but my question is, how did you know the sailing had no sail-rail spaces available before you phoned them?

I presume the conversation went something like:

Solent&Wessex: I'd like to book a ticket from [local station] to Douglas please, out on July 25th, return on July 31st.
IOMSC: Ohh... Hmm... I can get you the out on the 25th but we're fully booked up on the 31st.
Solent&Wessexh dear. Is it completely full?
IOMSC: Give me a sec... Okay, I've managed to open up four spaces on the 31st so we can get you on.
Solent&Wessex: Thanks very much.

And so on...

 

[gray1404]

You can't book sail rail tickets directly with the IOM STP unless you do this in person at their office in Douglas.

 

[najaB]

You can't book sail rail tickets directly with the IOM STP unless you do this in person at their office in Douglas.

You can, however, call them before buying your ticket to ensure that they have space. In fact, it's recommended that you do so on their Sail and Rail webpage:

We advise that you check ferry availability with our Reservations Team (on 01624 661 661) prior to confirming a rail booking through any third party website.

In which case the above conversation (or a variation thereof) would still be possible.