• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Linking the Bakerloo and the city

Status
Not open for further replies.

robertclark125

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2008
Messages
1,629
Location
Cardenden, Fife
The stub of the former access road from the Waterloo and city Bank bound tunnel to the site of the former Armstrong lift (demolished in 1990) remains. I was wondering, as the Bakerloo line is nearby, could this be extended beyond the end of the shaft, to link up with the Bakerloo? If it was, it would eliminate the need for a crane to get trains in and uot of the Drain.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Drsatan

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
1,887
Location
Land of the Sprinters
The stub of the former access road from the Waterloo and city Bank bound tunnel to the site of the former Armstrong lift (demolished in 1990) remains. I was wondering, as the Bakerloo line is nearby, could this be extended beyond the end of the shaft, to link up with the Bakerloo? If it was, it would eliminate the need for a crane to get trains in and uot of the Drain.

Even though I'm no infrastructure expert, that would be quite difficult and costly because of the need to bore a large hole in the Bakerloo line tunnel which would affect its structural integrity. Moreover there would be water mains, gas pipes etc. which would get in the way of any extension.
 

A60K

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Kilburn
The stub of the former access road from the Waterloo and city Bank bound tunnel to the site of the former Armstrong lift (demolished in 1990) remains. I was wondering, as the Bakerloo line is nearby, could this be extended beyond the end of the shaft, to link up with the Bakerloo? If it was, it would eliminate the need for a crane to get trains in and uot of the Drain.

As the trains only need to leave the line once every 10-15 years it's simply not worth the money to link the two lines. The stub to the lift isn't very long at all, and if you tried to extend it and burrow down you hit the basement car park or foundations of the international terminal, let alone any other subterranean obstructions or alignment issues. Construction of this is why the lift was removed in the first place, as well as the planned new stock being to LU spec so that it couldn't be maintained easily at a mainline depot. Interestingly the original plans would have had the W&C stub realigned into the international terminal car park so that stock could be removed and brought in by road, and it was only once construction started that the Lower Marsh crane arrangement was put in place instead.


 

robertclark125

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2008
Messages
1,629
Location
Cardenden, Fife
Put me right on this one guys, is the crane a permanent one, i.e. fixed to the ground, or is it a lorry, hired in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And while I remember, where is the W&C hole? I couldn't find it on google earth lol!
 

Capybara

Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
490
Location
SE11
Put me right on this one guys, is the crane a permanent one, i.e. fixed to the ground, or is it a lorry, hired in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And while I remember, where is the W&C hole? I couldn't find it on google earth lol!

Both. There is a small permanent crane for, presumably, lifting small stuff in and out. When trains are removed or replaced, they bring in a big crane on a lorry.

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/2099

The 'hole, is on Spur Road where Lower Marsh and Baylis Road meet, close to the Old Vic.
 
Last edited:

Bill EWS

Member
Joined
10 Feb 2006
Messages
666
Location
Didcot
Here is a Google Street View of the lift on Spur Road, with Waterloo Station in the Background.

10sg3nr.jpg
 

steve099

Member
Joined
10 May 2009
Messages
56
Here is a Google Street View of the lift on Spur Road, with Waterloo Station in the Background.

10sg3nr.jpg
Amazing. I go past Spur Road every day and never noticed that. Certainly wouldn't have realised it was for the W&C.
 

Royston Vasey

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
2,476
Location
Cambridge
Put me right on this one guys, is the crane a permanent one, i.e. fixed to the ground, or is it a lorry, hired in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And while I remember, where is the W&C hole? I couldn't find it on google earth lol!

This was featured in an episode of Monster Moves, screened on Ch 5 some time ago. It causes immense disruption, closure of roads and requires pinpoint placement of the crane to avoid underground infrastructure.

I can't find a link to the video online, sorry, but it's season 2 episode 3, look out for a repeat on National Geographic channel or Five.

http://www.locatetv.com/tv/monster-moves/season-2/541659
 

SWT Driver

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2009
Messages
777
Location
The Twiglet Zone.
Just out of curiosity.

How much difference is there in height between the DLR station @ Bank & the W&C line platforms?

Because if it's not that much, wouldn't it be a prudent move to link them up & then use the W&C for an extension of the DLR?

Or is that called being too sensible again?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,427
Location
Yorks
I've always wondered whether it might have been worth joining the Waterloo and City to the City and Great Northern line through Finsbury Park to Highgate to create a sort of Northern Line relief route. As it turned out the eastern region had it's eyes on the City and Great Northern anyway !
 
Joined
18 Apr 2009
Messages
193
Location
South East
How much difference is there in height between the DLR station @ Bank & the W&C line platforms?

Because if it's not that much, wouldn't it be a prudent move to link them up & then use the W&C for an extension of the DLR?

See this diagram here: http://husk.org/www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/7069/ltmonu.jpg

The problem is not so much the difference in height, but the fact that the two sets of platforms are at right angles to each other. Plus the Jubilee line now runs from Waterloo to much of the area served by the DLR, so I wonder how many people would take advantage of a DLR extended via the W&C. An extension to Moorgate (and from there to FPK) from Bank for either line might be more useful, especially for relieving overcrowding on the City Branch of the Northern Line.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,883
Location
Reston City Centre
At the other end, what would the chances be of linking the Waterloo & City line with existing services into Waterloo "overground"?

Just thinking that if some of the "local" services into Waterloo could be diverted "underground" to Bank, this would both save platform space at Waterloo and give a link to "the city" from places like Wimbledon.

Presumably the answer is "completly impossible"...
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,817
Location
0035
Not impossible, just vastly expensive. Both are the same thing in political terms.
 
Joined
10 Feb 2010
Messages
74
As far as im aware the tunnel bore is too restrictive for DLR and much too small for normal mainline stock.

Chris
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
I've always wondered whether it might have been worth joining the Waterloo and City to the City and Great Northern line through Finsbury Park to Highgate to create a sort of Northern Line relief route. As it turned out the eastern region had it's eyes on the City and Great Northern anyway !

Well the Green Party had a idea of connecting the Northern City Line to the Waterloo and City and using existing track to Richmond which can be found on the Wikipedia page for the Hertford Loop.

The plan was for services from Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City to offer a direct service to Richmond.

Interesting but not practical as they also had ideas for a relief loops at points along the line which would never happen but should ie Watton At Stone, Cuffley and Gordon Hill, Gordon Hill having both bays in use and converted to though lines and Cuffley/Watton At Stone having the loops the north end of the stations.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
To run mainline stock through the existing W%C would require the tunnels to be considerably bigger. Ideally, all the platforms involved would want to be eight-car as well otherwise on the W&C section you'd create massive overcrowding I reckon.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
To run mainline stock through the existing W%C would require the tunnels to be considerably bigger. Ideally, all the platforms involved would want to be eight-car as well otherwise on the W&C section you'd create massive overcrowding I reckon.

They did confirm that the W & C would need to be enlarged along with new tunnels linking Moorgate to Bank and the W & C to the mainline at Waterloo.
No word on how long the trains would be though but the only station on the Hertford Loop which will have trouble being extended to take is Hertford North with the pointwork at the South end of the station and the bridge at the north end of the station although Platform 1 could easily be extended southbound, Gordon Hill might have a issue but the vast majority of stations from Letchworth to Finsbury Park could take 8 cars with no problems providing platforms get extended, it's the NCL which is the really restrictive part as it's limited to 6 cars - if the restriction wasn't there then 8 cars in the peak would probably be the norm.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,427
Location
Yorks
They did confirm that the W & C would need to be enlarged along with new tunnels linking Moorgate to Bank and the W & C to the mainline at Waterloo.
No word on how long the trains would be though but the only station on the Hertford Loop which will have trouble being extended to take is Hertford North with the pointwork at the South end of the station and the bridge at the north end of the station although Platform 1 could easily be extended southbound, Gordon Hill might have a issue but the vast majority of stations from Letchworth to Finsbury Park could take 8 cars with no problems providing platforms get extended, it's the NCL which is the really restrictive part as it's limited to 6 cars - if the restriction wasn't there then 8 cars in the peak would probably be the norm.

Thats interesting - I always imagined it as a tube line. That said, they managed to enlarge the central section of the central line in the 1930's so the Waterloo and City wouldn't have been impossible by any means.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Well I found the text highlighting the basic idea that the Green Party had:

Green Party proposal

The Green Party has proposed that the Northern City Line be connected to the Waterloo & City line to create a new cross-London route.[citation*needed] The core section of the route would be from Finsbury Park to Clapham Junction via Moorgate, Bank and Waterloo, with a new connection at Blackfriars. Through services could then run from Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North to destinations like Hounslow, Richmond, Shepperton, Kingston and Weybridge, thus enabling much better use of the capacity offered by this part of the network, particularly outside city commuting hours.[3] However, the Waterloo & City was designed and built as a deep tube line; were this to be connected to the Northern City line this would mean either a reversion to using deep tube stock along the whole length (as when the NCL was part of the Northern line), or converting the Waterloo & City for main line sized rolling stock. The latter would be made more difficult still because of the tight curves, which would not suit conventional carriages. It would therefore probably mean boring completely new tunnels for much of the length.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/rus documents/route utilisation strategies/east coast main line/consultation responses/g/green party.pdf
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top