List of non surviving locomotives?

[NightStar]

GidDay, I have assembled a list of both diesel and electric locomotives that have no survivors of the class at present.

Diesels

British Rail Class 16

British Rail Class 21

British Rail Class 22

British Rail Class 23- New build underway.

British Rail Class 29

British Rail Class 41 (Warship Class)

British Rail Class 43

British Rail Class 48- Sulzer V12 12LVA24 power unit removed

British Rail Class 53

British Rail Class D16/1

British Rail 10100

British Rail Class D16/2

British Rail DHP1

British Rail DP2

British Rail HS4000

Turbines

British Rail 18000

British Rail 18100

British Rail GT3

Electrics

British Rail Class 70 (electric)

British Rail Class 74

British Rail Class 80

However I am interested in a list of all the steam locomotives that have no survivors at the present? Anyone care to compile a complete list?

Robert

 

[chris89]

The British Rail 18000 is at Didcot at the moment.

 

[scarby]

However I am interested in a list of all the steam locomotives that have no survivors at the present? Anyone care to compile a complete list?

Robert

Wouldn't that be a collosal task, unless some reference work already exists - I don't know if it does? If you mean from the invention of the steam loco, you would have to run through all of BR, then the big four and then the hardest part, all the pre-grouping pre-1923 companies.

Just look at this list of LMS locos that existed the day before nationalisation, and remember that's not even a complete list of their loco classes through their history, only what still existed on that date:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LMS_locomotives_as_of_31_December_1947

 

[ryan125hst]

I know that 18000 definitely exists. I took the two attached photographs at Barrow Hill back in 2009.

 

[Kali]

A list of missing steam classes would be enormous: unlike most other places, British railway companies liked to design their own steam engines ( which might be built by some of the independent makers, but that doesn't mean they were independent designs ). Occasionally or if the company was very small they'd buy a design from an independent builder, but not terribly often - very small companies seemed as likely to get a neighbouring big company to run services instead.

Considering how many companies were in existence at grouping ( well over 100 I think? and that's allowing for previous amalgamations ) and the 90ish years or so of development of the main line steam railway locomotive by then you're in for a bit of a monumental task. Good luck!

 

[NightStar]

18000 made the list because it is unpowered. I would love to see the loco return to turbine service or even a new build GT3. However turbines are the least likely to ever run again.

I am thinking of major classes of steam locomotives from the LNER, LMS, etc? I would go for the Big Four to BR and the end in 1967-68. So say 1923 to 1968.

The P2

U1

0-10-0 Big Bertha

LMS garratt


Robert

 

[12CSVT]

British Rail Class 48- Sulzer V12 12LVA24 power unit removed

D1705 at Great Central Railway used to be a class 48.

Another class which ceased to exist due to re-engining was class 30 which became class 31 when their Mirlees engines were replaced by English Electric.

 

[ryan125hst]

18000 made the list because it is unpowered. I would love to see the loco return to turbine service or even a new build GT3. However turbines are the least likely to ever run again.

That makes sense. I didn't know it was without a power unit. Mind you, I suppose it would be restored and operational if it had!

 

[scarby]

That makes sense. I didn't know it was without a power unit. Mind you, I suppose it would be restored and operational if it had!

This is what 18000 looks like inside:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/372paul/5798850355/

 

[12CSVT]

Perhaps they could give 18000 dummy engine components, like the prototype DELTIC.

 

[Bevan Price]

For the LNER, steam loco classes taken over by BR that have no preserved representatives include Classes
Tender locos.: W1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B7, B8, B9, B13, B16, B17, V4, K2, K3, K5, D1, D2, D3, D9, D10, D15, D20, D29, D30, D32, D33, D41, E4, C1, C4, C7, Q4, Q5, O1, O2, O3, J3, J4, J1, J2, J5, J6, J10, J11, J24, J25, J26, J35, J39,
Tank locos: F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7, G5, C12, C13, C14, C15, C16, V1, V3, L1, L2, L3, Y4, Y6, Y10, Z4, Z5, J50, J52, J55, J62, J63, J65, J66, J68, J70, J71, J73, J75, J77, J83, J92, J93, M2, N1, N4, N5, N8, N9, N10, N13, N14, N15, A6, A7, A8, A9, S1, T1, Q1 & U1 (In approximate order of appearance in Ian Allan ABC)

Expect similar numbers for ex-LMS, GWR and SR classes and it just shows how much variety has been lost since 1948.

 

[GM078]

Presumably this would be even harder when you take into account 19th century locomotives, can't imagine all would have been documented?

 

[12CSVT]

I think GWR and SR loco classes fared better than LNER thanks to the intervention of a certain Mr Woodham ?

 

[NightStar]

Lets not rule out new builds of historic locomotives either. With the number of new projects in the works that should shrink the list some?

http://newbuildsteam.com/

The reason I was interested in this topic was in regards to building new locomotives of those that did not get preserved. The list is a bit longer than I had hoped it would be.

Robert

 

[E&W Lucas]

Lets not rule out new builds of historic locomotives either. With the number of new projects in the works that should shrink the list some?

http://newbuildsteam.com/

The reason I was interested in this topic was in regards to building new locomotives of those that did not get preserved. The list is a bit longer than I had hoped it would be.

Robert

But very few of those projects have any real chance of coming to fruition. The most likely, are those that are utilising a significant number of pre - existing components. Even then, the costs involved are horrific!

Also, don't forget the mass of induistrial railway systems that used to exist in the UK. A whole wealth of fascinating locomotives, and now a world that has largely vanished.

 

[Kali]

I think GWR and SR loco classes fared better than LNER thanks to the intervention of a certain Mr Woodham ?

Thanks to Churchward standardising early, the GWR is pretty well off because it didn't have a plethora of classes. Pity nobody grabbed a Grange, but that is one that's being cobbled together out of other components right now - thanks again to standard parts it's probably not far off a genuine one.

Also not present:
Hawksworth County ( I believe another one being knocked up out of an 8F and a Hall? )
5800: just a 14xx with no auto gear

I'm not sure if all the variations of the large 2-6-2 made it given Collett kept tinkering with them, but other than that iirc things are pretty complete for post grouping stuff.

 

[Manchester77]

Forgive me if I'm wrong or it's already been mentioned but what about kestrel/HS4000? I doubt there are any left unless someone else knows better...
m77

 

[12CSVT]

Forgive me if I'm wrong or it's already been mentioned but what about kestrel/HS4000? I doubt there are any left unless someone else knows better...
m77

HS4000 was scrapped in 1993

 

[NightStar]

It's a shame that the 4000 was scrapped. However since it ended up in Russia and stripped of parts over several years I don't think it would have been easy to rescue the Kestrel? Plus Russian track gauge is 5 feet 2 inches. So unless the original bogies survived? I would imagine finding a new pair for standard gauge would be a real problem?

Robert

 

[sprinterguy]

ped of parts over several years I don't think it would have been easy to rescue the Kestrel? Plus Russian track gauge is 5 feet 2 inches. So unless the original bogies survived? I would imagine finding a new pair for standard gauge would be a real problem?

Robert

I thought that the original bogies were used when the loco went to Russia, but with the wheelsets regauged. All academic of course when the generally accepted view is that the loco was cut up in 1993/4, as you say.

 

[NightStar]

I thought that the original bogies were used when the loco went to Russia, but with the wheelsets regauged. All academic of course when the generally accepted view is that the loco was cut up in 1993/4, as you say.

That is a good question? I was under the impression the trucks or bogies were changed out for Eastern European bogies from a Russian locomotive? Not much info seems to be at hand for Kestrel.

Robert

 

[LE Greys]

Thanks to Churchward standardising early, the GWR is pretty well off because it didn't have a plethora of classes. Pity nobody grabbed a Grange, but that is one that's being cobbled together out of other components right now - thanks again to standard parts it's probably not far off a genuine one.

Also not present:
Hawksworth County ( I believe another one being knocked up out of an 8F and a Hall? )
5800: just a 14xx with no auto gear

I'm not sure if all the variations of the large 2-6-2 made it given Collett kept tinkering with them, but other than that iirc things are pretty complete for post grouping stuff.

Of course, the GWR also fared really badly in other areas. Not one broad gauge engine survives. Two were plinthed at Swindon, but (so the story goes) William Stanier decided they were no longer needed and had both scrapped, only for the company to have one rebuilt a few years later. An amazing number of original parts - including the chimney, all the cab fittings, the buffers and the nameplate - of North Star magically reappeared and went into the replica. Of course, we now have the Iron Duke and Fire Fly replicas as well. I'd love to see a Rover-class built to fill in the gap between these early engines and the conversion. The things were massive, easily capable of mile-a-minute times.

 

[Kali]

There's Tiny, the one that used to sit on Newton Abbot, but nothing sizeable, no. ( I will look for conversions sometime ). Occasionally I look for a suitable disused line that would be suitable to rebuild as a 7' line, but nothing really springs to mind - the Faringdon line might be an idea given it's not all that far from Didcot, but not if they want to reopen it anyway...

Loads of non-preserved standard gauge pre-grouping GWR ( some of which were lovely bits of engineering ), but then it's the same with all the others.

 

[341o2]

Of course, the GWR also fared really badly in other areas. Not one broad gauge engine survives. Two were plinthed at Swindon, but (so the story goes) William Stanier decided they were no longer needed and had both scrapped, only for the company to have one rebuilt a few years later. An amazing number of original parts - including the chimney, all the cab fittings, the buffers and the nameplate - of North Star magically reappeared and went into the replica. Of course, we now have the Iron Duke and Fire Fly replicas as well. I'd love to see a Rover-class built to fill in the gap between these early engines and the conversion. The things were massive, easily capable of mile-a-minute times.

which is why the broad gauge was used - far greater stability than the "Stephenson narrow gauge"

Consider the Irish situation in 1948, where 491 engines were divided into 79 classes, 23 of which consisted of one locomotive

 

[Bevan Price]

Presumably this would be even harder when you take into account 19th century locomotives, can't imagine all would have been documented?

Most, if not all, of the early locos. have been documented by Baxter & Baxter in their series of British Locomotive Classes books. They list every steam loco known to have operated up to 1923. Many are also listed in the RCTS Loco history series, although the LMSR series is not yet complete. Ian Allan ABC's and similar books cover the post-1923 period.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course, the GWR also fared really badly in other areas. Not one broad gauge engine survives. Two were plinthed at Swindon, but (so the story goes) William Stanier decided they were no longer needed and had both scrapped, only for the company to have one rebuilt a few years later. .

I don't know if it is true, but one version I heard suggests that not all the blame can be placed on Stanier. Apparently they were short of space at Swindon Works, and someone (presumably the GWR board) didn't want to pay to find / provide an alternative location for the preserved locos. I think something similar happened to a couple of Midland Railway locos that had been set aside for preservation.

 

[NightStar]

Thank you to all who have contributed to my inquary regarding non surviving steam locomotives. In the coming year I hope to compile a list all of the post 1923 steam locomotives that do not exist today and post it here for all who are interested.

Robert

 

[David Goddard]

I guess we are at a time now that we should be adding units to this list as well. Their contribution to the railways spans a very long period and should not be underestimated.
Can certainly start with classes 123/125, 304/305 and of course the Blue Pullman 251/261.

 

[Tiny Tim]

I think GWR and SR loco classes fared better than LNER thanks to the intervention of a certain Mr Woodham ?

Yes, indeed, due to the unusual circumstances at Barry, very few locos were scrapped there. At the beginning, Woodham's were busy scrapping coal wagons, which are easier to process. Later on, Dai Woodham became more receptive to preservation groups. Due to the terms under which BR sold the locos to Woodham's, they could only make a modest profit selling them as complete locos. Other scrapyards cut up locos almost immediately, we have Woodham's to thank for much of our preserved fleet.

Considering how many companies were in existence at grouping ( well over 100 I think? and that's allowing for previous amalgamations ) and the 90ish years or so of development of the main line steam railway locomotive by then you're in for a bit of a monumental task. Good luck!

I seem to remember that the number of separate railway companies before grouping was 178, although some of these wouldn't have had their own locos. Still a monumental task.