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live train information is not fit for purpose

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TUC

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A couple of incidents this week confirmed to me just how inadequate the current systems for informing passengers of delays and late changes-both at stations and on-line are.

Yesterday my wife was due to catch the 1800 from Selby to Leeds, arriving1832. I was meeting her in Leeds. When I arrived at Leeds station at 1812 the arrivals board stated that the train had already arrived which was clearly an impossibility. I checked Live Departure Boards and, apart from advising that the train would arrive at Leeds 3 minutes late, did not suggest any problems.

A few minutes later I got a call from my wife to advise that the train had been cancelled. However no one at Selby, the staff included, had known anything about it. The displays at Selby were still showing the train as operating. It was only when a passenger checked on-line that they saw it was now showing as cancelled.

When the staff member went to the office to check they found that a message had now arrived to say that the inbound train that would have formed the journey has been terminated short at Leeds but until then none of the systems had shown any problem.

On Tuesday morning the 0811 from Selby to Manchester Piccadilly was terminating short at Huddersfield. However, at Selby, aside from a message on the platform display for the journey stating 'please note change of timetable' there lead little to flag up the change. True the platform display read 0811 Huddersfield' rather than Manchester Piccadilly as did the automated announcements at the station and on the train but none of them flagged up that this was any variation to normal I.e. they simply announced that the service was to Huddersfield as if that was its normal terminating point every day. Similarly, on checking on-line, no service disruptions were flagged up for that route.

It all confirms my view that the current systems for detecting and reporting late service changes-for passengers and staff-are seriously deficient.1
 
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Freightmaster

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I trust you have taken the initiative to inform the TOC and/or Network Rail about this,
rather than just sounding off on an rail enthusiasts discussion forum, which will achieve nothing...

MARK
 

mfc3024

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I have similar experiences with trains between Motherwell and Edinburgh which sometimes involved connections at Bellshill. I recall writing to Steve Montgomery, Managing Director at Scotrail to inform him (and also to make myself feel better) and I got a quick response from Scotrail. The response didn't actually state too much IIRC other than the poor communications were a result of them having multiple communications methods, decisions being made centrally (I assume in one control office as opposed to locally) and the fact that changes to the specific issues are happening quickly, so it may not be possible to update websites, station boards etc. to reflect the exact situation.

I have to say that I think Scotrail are fantastic for 99% of the time - the app on mobile phones is excellent, departure boards generally are spot-on and the website is good.

However, when it goes wrong, Scotrail can't seem to communicate effectively with passengers (customers who are paying for a service). About six weeks ago there were issues affecting the lines through Partick and trains on the low-levels through Central and Queen St were off at rush-hour. Not knowing there was an issue, I went to Anderston to get the 5.35 home and was informed that Motherwell passengers has to go to Central (10 mins walk) and get the 5.40 to Motherwell (there is no timetabled 5.40 service) - so I walk along and wait in the concourse, and wait, and wait, and wait for information as to when trains would depart. There were plenty of Scotrail staff around however no-one knew what was happening and it took until 6.10 to get a manager who could tell us what might happen!!! Eventually my wife came in for me.

We all understand things go wrong and it is a complex issue having to re-position trains and staff, but all that passengers want, and deserve, is effective communication. If Scotrail been sensible they would have had a manager (or someone who was confident) out at the departure boards at Central Station at 5.35/5.40 to state either what was happening in terms of departing trains or decisions being made.

No communication is bad but wrong communication is worse. TOCs have to realise that passengers are customers who pay for the service, but unfortunately there is no competition so there is no reason to strive for excellent customer service as they won't lose passengers to other TOCs.
 

howittpie

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Had a similar thing at Liverpool South Parkway when meeting a friend there. The board was showing an on time arrival which was impossible as the train was still in Manchester when I advised the gateline staff they checked online and radioed for the boards to be updated.
 

whhistle

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Virgin Trains managed stations in the Midlands region do not suffer from this as all their systems are linked station by station through trust and the train reporting points.

If a train is sent out through their email system as cancelled, it will automatically show on the trains. Search "National Rail Darwin System". The system will roll out to all stations eventually.
 

WelshBluebird

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One I noticed yesterday was interesting with FGW.
Delays around Bristol meant that a Portsmouth Harbour service made unscheduled calls at Keynsham and Oldfield Park. The live departures table gave it 2 minutes to get from Bristol Temple Meads to Keynsham (a journey that is normally almost ten minutes, not even running non stop would it have done that in 2 minutes).
 

nomis1066

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TUC has made a very relevant comment re station and on train information. I suspect TOCs everywhere get plenty of complaints about wrong info on station displays. Station staff have got lazy and over reliant on auto info and recorded announcements which can all too easily fall into the twaddle category. Personally, I have far more time for someone who makes that little effort and picks up a microphone and gives out accurate information as best as he/she can.

Especially at times of disruption when wrong information is notoriously prevalent - and - unforgivably - not corrected by someone picking up that microphone. The situation is even worse at unstaffed stations - St Leonards Warrior Square, a SouthEastern station - is a prime example of nonsensical automated displays and announcements. Recent example - "Stand clear, approaching train not scheduled to stop here" as the all stations to Victoria arrives. Result = confusion.

I would add that in the days of hopeless, monolithic British Rail, Warrior Square was staffed and such ludicrous occurrences were happily nearly 20 years away!
 

DarloRich

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A couple of incidents this week confirmed to me just how inadequate the current systems for informing passengers of delays and late changes-both at stations and on-line are.

Yesterday my wife was due to catch the 1800 from Selby to Leeds, arriving1832. I was meeting her in Leeds. When I arrived at Leeds station at 1812 the arrivals board stated that the train had already arrived which was clearly an impossibility. I checked Live Departure Boards and, apart from advising that the train would arrive at Leeds 3 minutes late, did not suggest any problems.

A few minutes later I got a call from my wife to advise that the train had been cancelled. However no one at Selby, the staff included, had known anything about it. The displays at Selby were still showing the train as operating. It was only when a passenger checked on-line that they saw it was now showing as cancelled.

When the staff member went to the office to check they found that a message had now arrived to say that the inbound train that would have formed the journey has been terminated short at Leeds but until then none of the systems had shown any problem.

On Tuesday morning the 0811 from Selby to Manchester Piccadilly was terminating short at Huddersfield. However, at Selby, aside from a message on the platform display for the journey stating 'please note change of timetable' there lead little to flag up the change. True the platform display read 0811 Huddersfield' rather than Manchester Piccadilly as did the automated announcements at the station and on the train but none of them flagged up that this was any variation to normal I.e. they simply announced that the service was to Huddersfield as if that was its normal terminating point every day. Similarly, on checking on-line, no service disruptions were flagged up for that route.

It all confirms my view that the current systems for detecting and reporting late service changes-for passengers and staff-are seriously deficient.1

And you have done what about it? I mean other than coming on a public website to vent. Have you contacted the train companies to register your complaint?
 

WelshBluebird

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And you have done what about it? I mean other than coming on a public website to vent. Have you contacted the train companies to register your complaint?

Thing is, maybe I am just being a cynic, but nothing ever changes no matter how much people complain. I've complained to FGW many times about the poor quality of their customer service at unstaffed stations. All you get is either a "it won't happen again" or a "I'll pass on your comments to someone else". If you are lucky you may get an apology or some compensation, but very little actually changes.

Actually, I will give FGW one thing. The detail on their journeycheck website is a lot better now. But it has taken them several years.
 
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yorkie

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Complaining sometimes seems to result in the complaint being only read by someone very low down in the company, while this forum is read by some people in prominent positions (and the DfT, ATOC etc do read it).
 

TUC

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I should stress that my comments are in no way a criticism of Selby station staff who are unfailingly courteous and helpful. It's the wider central information systems that aren't effective.
 

Mojo

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I wholeheartedly agree. Trains often 'vanish' from the system and it doesn't appear to be intelligent enough to update it. An example the other day, a train I was waiting for from Margate to St Pancras was due to run via Canterbury W but the line through there was closed due to an incident. The train was instead diverted via Folkestone and was about 20 down. The information screens at Ashford were doing their usual thing in showing an estimated time, then 2 Min after the estimated time, moving forward 4 Min, and so on. When I went to enquire the staff looked it up on Trust, which showed it was overdue at the first reporting point on the line via Canterbury W. It wasn't until they phoned someone it was apparent that it was diverted. I do not know why Trust/the CIS on the station cannot pick that up. I'd have thought the system should have the intelligence to note the train is going a different way and then re-populate the passing points so the staff can see where the train is, and the system can provide an accurate departure time. All the staff could see is the train vanishing and not reappearing on Trust until it arrived at Ashford!
 

Tomnick

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Off-route route reports should show in TRUST, certainly in the 'last reported' part of a TRJA line-up...but only if the off-route reports are generated in the first place - they often aren't, on lines that report manually!
 

Chrisgr31

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Southern used to use their own system and the passengers complained about it. They then started using the National Rail system and its even worse! And yes I have complained.
 

yorkie

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I should stress that my comments are in no way a criticism of Selby station staff who are unfailingly courteous and helpful. It's the wider central information systems that aren't effective.
Is there still a dodgy, inaccurate and misleading sign on the ticket machine about off peak tickets? I understand a complaint was made but for months nothing was done - that was over a year ago now so it may have been removed.
 

DarloRich

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Thing is, maybe I am just being a cynic, but nothing ever changes no matter how much people complain. I've complained to FGW many times about the poor quality of their customer service at unstaffed stations. All you get is either a "it won't happen again" or a "I'll pass on your comments to someone else". If you are lucky you may get an apology or some compensation, but very little actually changes.

Actually, I will give FGW one thing. The detail on their journeycheck website is a lot better now. But it has taken them several years.

Complaining sometimes seems to result in the complaint being only read by someone very low down in the company, while this forum is read by some people in prominent positions (and the DfT, ATOC etc do read it).

So just accept merde performance and complain here as it is viewed (allegedly) by important people? Yes -that should change things (cf Voyager/IEP/EC first class offering etc etc Ad nauseam)

Sorry but for me you complain to the TOC and if they offer an less than satisfactory response you complain again and again until they ( or passenger focus) do offer a proper response.
 

yorkie

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I'm not saying bad performance should be accepted. Posting here has made a difference in some cases.

People can complain to the TOC if they wish (and I encourage them to), they can also post on here if they wish.
 

MadCommuter

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My experience with ScotRail matches the comments above. During the same disruption I looked online and it wasn't clear whether Hamilton Circle trains were running. I went to Argyle Street and the staff informed me no trains were running and I should catch a bus. I ignored this, walked to Glasgow Central High Level and boarded a diverted Larkhall train. I looked on Journeycheck and this altered service was showing and had been posted before I was advised to catch a bus.

A week later I turned up at Hamilton West to be told no trains were running and to catch a bus. I ignored this and sat it out. 10 mins later I was boarding a train.

The key seems to be to ignore advice and do something completely different.

I have written to ScotRail on many occasions, giving examples of my frustration. The responses never address my query and it's the same old 'we are working closely with our partners' reply.
 

Goatboy

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This is a far more important issue than the naysayers give it credit for. Poor information is almost always the cause of most passenger complaints. Most people are fair and reasonable in the event of delays and problems provided they perceive that they are being kept well informed about whats going on.

The technology exists - and is often used well - to ensure that everyone knows a lot more than they often do. A favourite of mine is when you can tell a train is going to be late or cancelled at least an hour before it's announced - ie when the inbound service which forms it is cancelled or delayed. There must have been staff who knew for example that the 10:00 A to B being cancelled meant that 14:00 B to A wouldn't run so it's generally unacceptable that it only at 13:55 does the 14:00 B to A show as Cancelled on the PIS.

For my regular monthly journey I don't check the departures board to make sure it's going to be on time - I check the arrivals board as I tells me far more.
 

nomis1066

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Complain to a TOC? I work on the railway and won't be fobbed off with bland predicable waffle on the occasions when I have grounds to complain. Example - I emailed FCC to tell them about the serious overcrowding on some of their weekend Summer trains. This was after I had failed to get on a bulging 319 at Haywards Heath one Saturday evening when on my way to a night shift at 3 Bridges ASC. Not long after getting to work and looking after the East Croydon panel - who should come on the radio but the driver of that same train to say he wasn't going anywhere as a kid had been bitten by a dog. I immediately said to him that the severe overcrowding on his train must have made some contribution to such a situation.

I emailed FCC and got a fatuous response which included a completely irrelevant paragraph about how FCC were going to be providing thousands more Mon-Fri peak time seats while failing utterly to deal with the issues I had raised . I emailed them again and told them I had 30 years plus railway service and expected a considered response which I never did get.
 

AndyHudds

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Duff information was in evidence at Halifax on Thursday night. I got off the 17.14 Blackpool to York service at Halifax at around 19.10, it arrived into Halifax late its supposed to arrive at 19.03, so I missed the 19.06 back to Huddersfield, or so I thought. I had a quick squizz at the info board on Platform 1 and it stated that the 19.06 was due to arrive at 19.15, 9 minutes late, a stroke of luck I thought. I waited on platform 1 and an announcement came over the tannoy 'the train now approaching platform 1 is the 19.12 service to Manchester Victoria', strange I thought 'how has it overtaken the Huddersfield service'? Moments later a train rumbles in with the destination board as 'Wakefield Westgate' which is the Huddersfield service. So everyone gets on, later the conductor comes down the train just after leaving Brighouse to check the tickets and she asks is everyone is going to Huddersfield, bit strange I thought, anyway it transpires that someone had got on thinking it was the Victoria service and they wanted to go to Walsden, so this poor passenger had taken what was said over the tannoy as gospel and got on the wrong train!!
 
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The Planner

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A favourite of mine is when you can tell a train is going to be late or cancelled at least an hour before it's announced - ie when the inbound service which forms it is cancelled or delayed. There must have been staff who knew for example that the 10:00 A to B being cancelled meant that 14:00 B to A wouldn't run so it's generally unacceptable that it only at 13:55 does the 14:00 B to A show as Cancelled on the PIS.

Do platform staff at an intermediate station have access to the diagrams though? Also, why does the 14:00 have to be cancelled, control could quite easily shuffle a set round so it does run.
 

Andrewlong

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I make my complaints in real-time via twitter to the appropriate TOC. Today it was the lack of ticket checking on the FGW Reading to Newbury service - there were people sitting in first class and I suspect they weren't first class ticket holders. I also asked @FGW why an announcement was not made about train reversing at Tilehurst before it reached station to avoid confused passengers trying to get off.

FGW to their credit do respond to tweets unlike SWT where it's all one way traffic.
 

rdeez

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So is the system basically a combination of automatic and manually entered data? I do wonder when I see curious irregularities. For example, first class was advertised on the displays as being at the front of the train on my service this morning. As the train was approaching the station, there was an announcement that the train was in "reverse formation" and first was therefore actually at the rear.

Presumably in a case like this, something happened to the service so that it ended up...for want of a better phrase...the "wrong way" round?
 

jopsuk

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Implementing a single national that's accurate is a huge IT project. Till then we have various semi-connected, semi-automated, systems
 

Goatboy

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Do platform staff at an intermediate station have access to the diagrams though? Also, why does the 14:00 have to be cancelled, control could quite easily shuffle a set round so it does run.

I was just thinking of actual scenarios where it was cancelled and I managed to work it out hours before it actually was announced. This generally happens with XC where they don't have spare units at the extremeties of the network.

People sat at home have managed to code entire websites using open data which provide far more useful information than the official live data streams. This is ludicrous when you think about it.

It's fantastic that we have sites like realtimetrains but it's rather sad that the industry itself can't provide systems that are as good. If a member of the public sitting at home can easily work out the train they are intending to catch will be delayed simply by using a free open source website coded by an enthusiast then why can't the official systems?
 

jon0844

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If you think back to when many stations didn't have screens, you looked at a timetable. When the screens came, one of the key benefits was not simply knowing what you could look up anyway, but having news of delays or cancellations.

But it's precisely when there are problems that many screens become useless. The most common is of course the failure to link services, so you'd have an idea that your train is delayed or going to be cancelled long before the system works it out.

And when things go really bad and TOCs implement planned emergency timetables, you often find that all the planned services remain on the displays showing as cancelled, or sometimes even as on time, and the emergency services are mixed in between or missing entirely.

As said, a lot of information is provided that actually allows the likes of realtimetrains to sort some of this out automatically, which is indeed crazy.
 

nomis1066

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The lack of joined up thinking re accurate info provision is a result of the bits and pieces railway brought about by privatisation. But there is no reason why TOCs can't make an effort to keep passengers up to date. In fact, in this hi-tech era, it is unforgivable that bad info is so prevalent.

And as if that's not enough, some of the needless waffle has to be heard to be believed. Southern excel at this, like telling me which coach number I am in when the train doesn't divide and here is no short platform issue. Telling me to carry a bottle of water when it's hot, telling me platforms might be slippery, asking me to have consideration for others when using my phone or listening to music (biggest source of on train noise nuisance being Southern's needless announcements), telling me a train is on time when it is clearly late, telling me that my train is 'delayed' (which tells me nothing) etc etc etc. Bombarded with stuff you don't need, given no info when you DO need it and all too often given misleading advice by station monitors. Nothing short of scandalous. I can make my way round because I work on the railway, I often end up telling passengers what is going on - remember them?

Worst of all - a staffed station where wrong and misleading recorded info is given out with no effort made to correct it the tried and tested way - picking up that cobweb draped microphone.
 

TUC

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Implementing a single national that's accurate is a huge IT project. Till then we have various semi-connected, semi-automated, systems
Surely in a wireless internet age it shouldn't be a huge project. It does not need the wiring or degree of hardware it would have needed 10 years ago.
 

infobleep

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I trust you have taken the initiative to inform the TOC and/or Network Rail about this,
rather than just sounding off on an rail enthusiasts discussion forum, which will achieve nothing...

MARK

I've raised similar issues on here before and I have often informed SWT; LM; Southern and NRE of issues I've come across. Mostly I get a response and at times it has been useful to me. However it never seems to make a difference to the departure boards / live timings online then or in the future. Perhaps this is for a good reason, such as the systems they use being old or poorly designed. I don't know what they use to manage the information. All I know is that the communication of information could be handled better and I think that points to computer system improvements to help staff publish such information more effectively.

Today there were delays in and out of Waterloo for a variety of reasons beyond SWTs control. One of the trains that was on time into Waterloo and at most just 3 minutes late leaving stations during its journey, had a note above it on its live timings to say it was delayed due earlier over running engineering work.

Yet most of the other trains, including those with 10+ minute delays on reaching Waterloo had no such note above their live timings. Surely a train with a 10+ minute delay at its destination is more worthy of being given a reason for its delay than the one which arrived at its destination on time. Some longer delayed trains did have reasons so does this point to the system(s) needing improvements made to them.

The other week, between 9-10pm, one train was 45 minutes late into Woking with no reason being providing. Nor was there any for the 2-3 trains stuck behind it.

A week ago Sunday, the timetable information was wrong for trains diverted from Alton. This was one of the times when I informed SWT via Twitter of the problem but being a Sunday I never got a reply from them. I overheard the guard on the train say he'd wish they would just update the information on the screens. Whether they ever did I do not know but something tells me it was unlikely.
 
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