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Liverpool Lime St remodelling

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LNW-GW Joint

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do any LNWR (or whatever LM is now) and VT drivers sign the necessary routes? I don't recall seeing any diversions that way in my recent memory...
VT certainly have diverted that way during disruption in the last year, though LNW/LM have never done it, generally bustituting from Crewe.
We sign the Chat Moss but LNWR don't .LSP has always been the plan though, the fasts must be inaccessible and pl7&9 .

In fact, VT are diverting via Warrington BQ from Crewe to Liverpool throughout the Easter weekend.
I think this is for the Halton Jn work.
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/-/media/vt/files/pdf/easter 18/easter_engineering_2018.ashx?la=en&hash=B86FE128D13D9EAEA0D28AB5DF8E10F95231AE93
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea.../0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT
 
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driver_m

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I was referring to the big blockade in summer. It's in three stages supposedly, to get rid of the old signalling , Halton area, speke/Allerton and lime st itself. (though the weeklies suggest work will carry on until October.
 

driver_m

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Most of the new aignals now appear to be in around Halton apart from the ones which would directly obstruct existing signals. Fairly substantial banner repeater has gone up on Runcorn down platform too. Not much in the way of progress at Speke though. Just the one huge bracket and little else.
 

louis97

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Whatever had been done to Allerton-Garston track, (it appeared to have been pulled up) it's been put back and appears to be in its previously unused state again. Still only single track. OLE still in situ for both tracks. Also a lot of new signals in place between Weaver and Halton now.

The line between Allerton East and Garston Junction becomes single track with a connection from the Down Ditton Slow only, so all trains to use it would need to go through Platform 4 at South Parkway.

It seems to me Lime Street SB had to be replaced as it will be a new layout and all new equipment hence new workstation (signal box) therefore put in the ROC, Halton junction SB new layout and equipment hence new workstation (signalbox) so into the ROC but Speke Junction? and Allerton ? and Runcorn? are there any major layout changes going on there, or is it a case of gone to far to stop it??

Speke Junction, Allerton and Runcorn are all mechanical interlocked, same with Halton and Lime Street. So that is why they are being re-signalling. Edge Hill and Ditton areas are not so are both being re-controlled. Edge Hill was originally supposed to be re-controlled at the same time as the 4th track through Huyton, not sure when that has been delayed until now. Ditton was supposed to be done at the same time as Halton and Runcorn (May day bank holiday), i'm not sure if it still is. As Ditton and Edge Hill are both a re-control there won't be any changes on the ground to the equipment it controls as far as I am aware. This is except a new fixed red signal on platform 3 at Edge Hill to allow trains to turnaround there, this is a signal converted from a limit of shunt.
 

edwin_m

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As Ditton and Edge Hill are both a re-control there won't be any changes on the ground to the equipment it controls as far as I am aware. This is except a new fixed red signal on platform 3 at Edge Hill to allow trains to turnaround there, this is a signal converted from a limit of shunt.
Creating a fixed red would involve some changes to other signals too, as the routes leading up to it become main aspects rather than subsidiaries.
 

louis97

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Creating a fixed red would involve some changes to other signals too, as the routes leading up to it become main aspects rather than subsidiaries.
Yes you are correct, I was going to mention it but decided not to.

Signals LE43 and LE45 on the approach to Edge Hill both gain an additional junction indicator (feather). The AWS magnet in Platform 3 also becomes a permanent magnet for trains travelling towards the fixed red signal (LE51).
 

mpb56125

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Allerton Junction to Garston In will be re-instated once Speke Jn and Allerton Jn come under the ROC. It will be single line signalled for both directions.

Mark
Whatever had been done to Allerton-Garston track, (it appeared to have been pulled up) it's been put back and appears to be in its previously unused state again. Still only single track. OLE still in situ for both tracks. Also a lot of new signals in place between Weaver and Halton now.
 

driver_m

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I must say I'm surprised Garston - Allerton hasnt been ripped out as an asset that doesn't currently get any use, hasn't done for some time and not likely to have any freightliner traffic heading that way ever again. Even as a triangle, Earlestown can replicate that . Are there any plans for it?
 

8A Rail

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I must say I'm surprised Garston - Allerton hasnt been ripped out as an asset that doesn't currently get any use, hasn't done for some time and not likely to have any freightliner traffic heading that way ever again. Even as a triangle, Earlestown can replicate that . Are there any plans for it?
Has not had any use basically since the Garston Junction Signal Box fire (many many moons ago) but the intention has always been to reinstate it eventually in one form or another. Who is to say that Freightliner (or any other FOC) won't use it in the future? Regarding turning on a 'triangle', not that easy to path a train to Earlestown and back again. The Speke triangle is a much simpler and quicker option if its required for that purpose.
 

mpb56125

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Has not had any use basically since the Garston Junction Signal Box fire (many many moons ago) but the intention has always been to reinstate it eventually in one form or another. Who is to say that Freightliner (or any other FOC) won't use it in the future? Regarding turning on a 'triangle', not that easy to path a train to Earlestown and back again. The Speke triangle is a much simpler and quicker option if its required for that purpose.
The line was taken out of use after a 47 derailed on the crossover between Allerton Junction and Garston Junction over 8 years ago. If not longer. GBRf do the odd loco move between Speke Junction and Edge Hill that have to run via Halewood sidings or Ditton to reverse.

Mark
 

8A Rail

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The line was taken out of use after a 47 derailed on the crossover between Allerton Junction and Garston Junction over 8 years ago. If not longer. GBRf do the odd loco move between Speke Junction and Edge Hill that have to run via Halewood sidings or Ditton to reverse. Mark
Thank you for the clarification on when the line was taken out. I knew it was some time ago but not as long as I've stated! As for odd GBRf loco move between locations stated, I am curious what moves they are please as clearly I have missed something (which is very possible)? GBRf Garston CT 'Auto' is a straight forward operation including run around at Speke Junction with the old Biomass train going via Runcorn but I never known any GBRf run round moves at Ditton or at Halewood Sidings though. Any additional information would be much appreciated. Thank You.
 

driver_m

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Has not had any use basically since the Garston Junction Signal Box fire (many many moons ago) but the intention has always been to reinstate it eventually in one form or another. Who is to say that Freightliner (or any other FOC) won't use it in the future? Regarding turning on a 'triangle', not that easy to path a train to Earlestown and back again. The Speke triangle is a much simpler and quicker option if its required for that purpose.

Mainly because running round and crossing over at Edge Hill is a huge capacity eater, the East is accessible via Northwich and the Chat Moss is pretty busy as it is. Just can't see what would come out of Garston to head Northwards. Passenger stock can't turn at Garston as none of us have signed it for years.
Do t get me wrong, I dont want to see any infrastructure ripping out, but I would guess it's best hope of meaningful use is some kind of reinstatement of the bridges around Edge Hill to direct access the Eastbound Chat Moss without a runround. And that's likely to never happen unless a big traffic flow could justify it .
 

driver_m

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The line was taken out of use after a 47 derailed on the crossover between Allerton Junction and Garston Junction over 8 years ago. If not longer. GBRf do the odd loco move between Speke Junction and Edge Hill that have to run via Halewood sidings or Ditton to reverse.

Mark

Was that a freightliner 47? Been a long time since they went to Garston. Or was it one of the smaller operators who've had them over the years since?
 

mpb56125

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Was that a freightliner 47? Been a long time since they went to Garston. Or was it one of the smaller operators who've had them over the years since?
Can't remember it was that long ago, before the smaller operators, so may have been EWS / Transrail or Freightliner.

Mark
 

mpb56125

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Doug,

If 6X41 is worked by a 66 vice 92 they sometimes send the 66 to Tuebrook sidings to swap over with a Bio Mass 66. It doesn't happen very often and when it does it's normally done on the day.

Mark
 

8A Rail

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Mainly because running round and crossing over at Edge Hill is a huge capacity eater, the East is accessible via Northwich and the Chat Moss is pretty busy as it is. Just can't see what would come out of Garston to head Northwards. Passenger stock can't turn at Garston as none of us have signed it for years.
Do t get me wrong, I dont want to see any infrastructure ripping out, but I would guess it's best hope of meaningful use is some kind of reinstatement of the bridges around Edge Hill to direct access the Eastbound Chat Moss without a runround. And that's likely to never happen unless a big traffic flow could justify it .
I am well aware of the Edge Hill crossing operations for any freight (and any ECS too), I've been around along time and know what issues it creates. There was a period in time, you could note the difference in which signalman was on at Edge Hill SB, the more experience persons clearly knew when the best time to slot a train in to cross all lines, especially if it was out of path. As for not signing the road, well no one has, given how long it has been out of operation but I'm sure that will be overcome in due course when its 'recommisioned' as such.

When I was referring to easier access for turning on a triangle, certainly referring to rail tours and such like as Speke would be the easier option. Even with a big traffic flow, any reinstatement of bridges / lines in the Edge Hill area, most of the land has gone anyway due to the relevant 'business park' now in situation, so I would agree with you, that would never happen. However. I would never dismiss any 'F/L' traffic coming back from the Docks which may need to call in at Garston FLT once again, although the ecomonics would suggest go via Earlestown to and from Crewe as a complete train (there are numerous road containers travelling from the Docks to Garston and Ditton, only need to look on the M57/A5300, let alone any those trucks that take the route via the Pier Head).

As for whether it was F/L Class 47 that cause the issue, Mark may be able to confirm in due course but Freightliner were using the Class 47's upto 2006 and they were still calling at Garston FLT to / from the Docks around that time. Certainly not beyond 2007 as F/L withdrew from the Seaforth CT service (which went direct to Crewe BH via Edge Hill Wapping) in 2008.
 

8A Rail

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Doug, If 6X41 is worked by a 66 vice 92 they sometimes send the 66 to Tuebrook sidings to swap over with a Bio Mass 66. It doesn't happen very often and when it does it's normally done on the day. Mark
Thank you for your reply, I just thought you were referring to something different. I've seen those moves myself from time to time.
 

Bevan Price

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Thank you for the clarification on when the line was taken out. I knew it was some time ago but not as long as I've stated! As for odd GBRf loco move between locations stated, I am curious what moves they are please as clearly I have missed something (which is very possible)? GBRf Garston CT 'Auto' is a straight forward operation including run around at Speke Junction with the old Biomass train going via Runcorn but I never known any GBRf run round moves at Ditton or at Halewood Sidings though. Any additional information would be much appreciated. Thank You.

I was near Hatton's new model store (between Halewood & Ditton) one day last November and saw 66708 running light engine towards Ditton, on the Up Slow line. A few minutes later, it returned on the Down Slow line, heading towards Liverpool. At the time, I was a bit mystified about the purpose of that move.
 

8A Rail

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I was near Hatton's new model store (between Halewood & Ditton) one day last November and saw 66708 running light engine towards Ditton, on the Up Slow line. A few minutes later, it returned on the Down Slow line, heading towards Liverpool. At the time, I was a bit mystified about the purpose of that move.
Thank You Bevan. Clearly a long way to go to gain access to a train in or out of Garston Car Terminal. For info the road in question is 'Newstead Road' and the bridge that crosses the line is called 'Lovel's Way' which gives access to Alstom.
 

mpb56125

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As for whether it was F/L Class 47 that cause the issue, Mark may be able to confirm in due course but Freightliner were using the Class 47's upto 2006 and they were still calling at Garston FLT to / from the Docks around that time. Certainly not beyond 2007 as F/L withdrew from the Seaforth CT service (which went direct to Crewe BH via Edge Hill Wapping) in 2008.

Derailment happened on 7th November 2007 and it was either 67017 or 66103 (conflicting report) whilst running light engine to Edge Hill. Line has been o/o/u since then. It did get re-instated on 19th July 2008 only so a steamer could be turned and once the move had taken place the route was signed o/o/u again.

Mark
 

driver_m

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I am well aware of the Edge Hill crossing operations for any freight (and any ECS too), I've been around along time and know what issues it creates. There was a period in time, you could note the difference in which signalman was on at Edge Hill SB, the more experience persons clearly knew when the best time to slot a train in to cross all lines, especially if it was out of path. As for not signing the road, well no one has, given how long it has been out of operation but I'm sure that will be overcome in due course when its 'recommisioned' as such.

When I was referring to easier access for turning on a triangle, certainly referring to rail tours and such like as Speke would be the easier option. Even with a big traffic flow, any reinstatement of bridges / lines in the Edge Hill area, most of the land has gone anyway due to the relevant 'business park' now in situation, so I would agree with you, that would never happen. However. I would never dismiss any 'F/L' traffic coming back from the Docks which may need to call in at Garston FLT once again, although the ecomonics would suggest go via Earlestown to and from Crewe as a complete train (there are numerous road containers travelling from the Docks to Garston and Ditton, only need to look on the M57/A5300, let alone any those trucks that take the route via the Pier Head).

As for whether it was F/L Class 47 that cause the issue, Mark may be able to confirm in due course but Freightliner were using the Class 47's upto 2006 and they were still calling at Garston FLT to / from the Docks around that time. Certainly not beyond 2007 as F/L withdrew from the Seaforth CT service (which went direct to Crewe BH via Edge Hill Wapping) in 2008.

I know you know the track well, that's why I was surprised you thought there might be traffic again on it one day. It'd be good but I just cant see it myself. You'll know better but has Garston got a long term future with the competition provided by Ditton and Seaforth? (And possibly Parkside and Manchester Terminals?)

As for the triangle .It's unlikely us lot will go down there with a pendo, or Northern with their units, primarily because we tend to use Birmingham to turn ours back round as it's fairly easy just to go in via Soho/Perry Barr, then back out via Grand Junction. Northern probably have a few to pick from. Could be potential with TPE maybe. If they end up trying to rigidly keep first class at one end. Can't recall us ever using Earlestown to turn anything, I think theres a length issue with the Limit of Shunt towards the 9 arches.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You can now go in an electric circle via St Helens Central-Ince Moss-Bamfurlong and then back to Liverpool via Newton le Willows.
Northern should be able to do that at least.
 

8A Rail

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I know you know the track well, that's why I was surprised you thought there might be traffic again on it one day. It'd be good but I just cant see it myself. You'll know better but has Garston got a long term future with the competition provided by Ditton and Seaforth? (And possibly Parkside and Manchester Terminals?)

As for the triangle .It's unlikely us lot will go down there with a pendo, or Northern with their units, primarily because we tend to use Birmingham to turn ours back round as it's fairly easy just to go in via Soho/Perry Barr, then back out via Grand Junction. Northern probably have a few to pick from. Could be potential with TPE maybe. If they end up trying to rigidly keep first class at one end. Can't recall us ever using Earlestown to turn anything, I think theres a length issue with the Limit of Shunt towards the 9 arches.

Thank you for your thoughts which are much appreciated. I see no reason why Garston FLT has not at least a medium term future especially that 'Maersk' now use the terminal rather than the Widnes facility. In the last 12 months, there has been an increase of traffic to the terminal. With regards to Seaforth CT, Intermodal / Liner trains have got to return first which initially could be in the hands of DBC (may be GBRf) before Freightliner. Peel Holdings keep telling us it wil happen soon but being saying that for last 6 months or so but I think it will happen eventually. As for Parkside, I doubt that will ever happen, in fact as I understand emphasis on this site has changed somewhat. No need to worry about Manchester Trafford Park as in the grand scheme of things that wont affect traffic to and from Liverpool City Region.

Interesting what you say about Earlestown Triangle and possible shunt limits but it is capable of taking 9/10 coaches plus two loco's in t&t mode as it has been carried out previously.

May be I am just a little more optimistic than you are with regards to the Speke Triangle but yes I could see TPE using it but also Northern too given the 'depot' is across the road (ideal to turn a Unit around rather than splitting it for the wheel lathe facility is an example?). The other traffic that may come into using it, could be the Tarmac stone traffic currently operated by Freightliner, I had heard about year ago, they wanted the opertional capablity to take trains from Garston to Edge Hill and beyond. I have heard nothing either way to suggest otherwise but as the link is being re-instated, may this is one of the reasons why? Thank you again for your input.
 

edwin_m

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The potential big one for freight is surely Port Salford. Haven't heard much about it recently but I presume it's still on.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The rebuilt Platform 6 was in use today. Nice and wide.
However, P4 has been taken out of use and its track is already lifted.
That makes P5 very narrow and unpleasant.
Predictably, that was where they put my TP service.
The "White Star" now has the builders in.
2 platforms in the south shed remain out of use.
 
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kel-green

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I have just noticed the following page on the Virgin Trains website:

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/travel-updates/timetables

It is explaining what dates are affected by timetable changes and hence advance tickets will not be available until a later date as the timetables will be published later.

However, one thing caught my attention to do with the Liverpool works. If you expand the 'Affected Dates' section, it states:

In addition, services to and from Liverpool will be subject to change 26 May - 4 August 2018.

It was my understanding that the work finished on 29 July as detailed here https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/liverpool-city-region-upgrade/

Does anyone know if for the period from 30 July - 4 August, (a) the duration of the works has been extended, (b) there are different works affecting these services, or (c) Virgin have made an error on this page.

Thanks
 

driver_m

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There's actually work expected on Lime St until October if the weekly notices are to be believed.
 

Ianigsy

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I noticed that the TPE website is now advising that they won't be operating west of Manchester during the work, with Liverpool passengers directed to Victoria when the Huyton route is open all the way through, otherwise Piccadilly and South Parkway.

Ye Gods, this is turning into a slog. I know it's bad luck as much as anything else, but living near Leeds and with aging parents in Birkenhead, in the last 18 months I've had the following to put up with:

Christmas 2016 No trains between Liverpool and Manchester on 27th December (used National Express)

Christmas 2017 Lime Street closure

Wirral Line closure first half of 2017

No fast Liverpool-Leeds services on Sundays for much of 2017 and up to the end of April due to work at Victoria

Blockades at Lime Street

Blockades between Victoria and Stalybridge

Signalling renewals at Huddersfield

Which all reminds me that I need to ring my friend Chris the driving instructor about some lessons!
 
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