I see 11 Norwich - Lime St and 3 Nottingham - Lime St (one being shown separately to the other two as going via Beighton, as at present), so no change?
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Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham
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swt_passenger
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I think you must not have seen there’s a footnote?
But odd they’ve done it that way, as Dec 2020 must be the date they’re referring to anyway for the whole document?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
They don't have enough padding to allow that.
The 11 Norwich to Lime St have a symbol and footnote saying "from principal change date 2020 Liverpool Lime Street will be replaced with Manchester Piccadilly".
Quite right - sorry, missed that! It seems rather odd that the extensions to Lime Street would all be the services to/from Nottingham only (3 down, 4 up?) too, implying that it'd be the 0520, 0639 and 0747 being the only ones going through on the down, with 1650, 1851, 1951 and 2137 back. All very bizarre!
Quite! I'm open to it being an error.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The error could be the note symbol being omitted from the others, i.e. all services will be cut back to Manchester.
Class 170101
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Presumably thats the last crossing move abolished at Slade Lane from Stockport to Platforms 13/14 at Manchester Piccdilly Station?
The Hazel Grove to Blackpool service will still do it, and the Alderley Edge - Wigan/Southport.
Liverpool does need this service. This line lost the Scarborough service which was the only other transpennine route and other main semi-fast to Manchester Oxford Road/Piccadilly from South Parkway and replaced by the grossly unreliable northern service to Man Airport.
It's a key route for South Liverpool and into Widnes and Warrington Central. Take that away and you're relying entirely on the stopper service which is already packed out in the peaks and takes over an hour and an Airport train that is too often cancelled/short formed/delayed, a lot more than the EMT service. These trains already have extra pressure on them Lime Street to LPY due to the complete breakdown of the LNR service.
It's a key route for South Liverpool and into Widnes and Warrington Central. Take that away and you're relying entirely on the stopper service which is already packed out in the peaks and takes over an hour and an Airport train that is too often cancelled/short formed/delayed, a lot more than the EMT service. These trains already have extra pressure on them Lime Street to LPY due to the complete breakdown of the LNR service.
Terminating another service at Piccadilly is nuts. The terminating TfW service at Piccadilly causes enough headaches due to increased dwell times in having to empty the train of passengers.
Reducing the EMR service between Liverpool and Manchester to only 4 a day is nuts. I don't use this service but know colleagues who do to get to work in Manchester from Widnes and Warrington. At the same time I use the Northern service between Manchester Airport and Liverpool via Warrington and I can tell you it is hardly the most reliable service. The only way this service is going to have any chance of coping is getting Northern to 5/6 coach all LIV-MAN express services and an additional call at Widnes - but then that also throws up problems with platform capacity at Manchester Airport.
I really do despair at the state of the rail industry. This proposed change is one that makes little sense to me.
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Presumably it'll terminate in the the bay platforms so that shouldn't be an issue unlike TfW who come through 13/14?
I used this train yesterday morning from South Parkway to Warrington. It was absolutely packed to the rafters before I even got on. Yet there was loads on the platform at Wigan and Warrington. It was like a scrum just trying to get off the thing, god knows how more got on at Warrington as I left. As i say they've done away with the Scarborough train on this route which has caused a lot more pressure on this service, so how can they think about taking that off us as well?
I wish I could drive at this point. Sick to the death of the state of the trains in this country and every year they make changes to make things worse for me (Scarborough train the other year, the New Street extension to Euston which has made the Birmingham service unusuable). Not to mention the absolute horrorshow of Northern in 2018.
I do wonder if the long-standung 2 x fast / 2 x slow stopping pattern is actually constraining the potential of the route
I.e. taking the fast services off the route gives the opportunity to re-map the service pattern to be more a mix of semi-fast/skip-stop type patterns that spread demand better between trains.
What is the point of offering a through train from Warrington to Norwich if it's packed out with Manchester commuters?
I.e. taking the fast services off the route gives the opportunity to re-map the service pattern to be more a mix of semi-fast/skip-stop type patterns that spread demand better between trains.
What is the point of offering a through train from Warrington to Norwich if it's packed out with Manchester commuters?
Yesterday morning was pretty exceptional, with a fatality at Eccles pushing large numbers off the Chat Moss route onto CLC services, combined with (very unusually) both EMR peak services being short-formed and a Northern service being heavily delayed and ultimately running fast to a Manchester. Pretty awful for everyone involved! I can’t see the Norwich service being withdrawn though, it just doesn’t make sense. It’d have to be replaced by another (Northern, presumably) service so there’s no saving in terms of Castlefield, and I know how many rely on the EMR services over there when Northern are in a mess!
This is the thing. A lot of people need this train, particularly betweeen South Parkway and Warrington. Losing the Scarborough service only increased that need and the Northern service to Manchester Aiport is regularly cancelled and whenever there's a line issue they pretty much stop running that service altogether. The only other train is the CLC stopper and that's a train packed out, particularly in the peaks, for the smaller stations commuting/visiting to Liverpool or Manchester. You can't throw all the South Liverpool/Widnes/Warrington commuters on that as well.
Platform 14 at Piccadilly is always packed to the rafters, imagine it without this service. Losing this train without a replacement is not feasible and if it's replaced then it's a train still going through Deansgate anyway.
They need to re-think the Ordsall Chord until they can get platform 15 and 16 built.
You would assume they would replace it, if they did, with something that doesn't require to cross the station throat and/or Slade Lane Jn. It would remove a lot of performance risk associated with having late running trains 200+ miles into their journey arriving out of path by having something more local instead.
For me, I'd be delighted to be curtailed at Man Picc - I'm as sick as my passengers of having my life mucked around by the regulation at Castlefield and increasingly Allerton for the appalling LNWR services.
I used to curtail my break at Liverpool to get the trains out on time, I no longer bother doing so because invariably when I do we get smacked for delay by something else and end up just as late as if I'd allowed myself and my trolley host a few mins for a break. Being regulated by NR and then that being used as justification to completely destroy your schedule through further regulation later is one of my biggest bugbears. Roll on whoever else takes over it because I can't wait to sign the lot off my route card.
For me, I'd be delighted to be curtailed at Man Picc - I'm as sick as my passengers of having my life mucked around by the regulation at Castlefield and increasingly Allerton for the appalling LNWR services.
I used to curtail my break at Liverpool to get the trains out on time, I no longer bother doing so because invariably when I do we get smacked for delay by something else and end up just as late as if I'd allowed myself and my trolley host a few mins for a break. Being regulated by NR and then that being used as justification to completely destroy your schedule through further regulation later is one of my biggest bugbears. Roll on whoever else takes over it because I can't wait to sign the lot off my route card.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The Scarborough service (through Warrington) was replaced by a Northern service that serves the same intermediate stops from Liverpool to Manchester though?
And Liverpool still has a Scarborough service (diverted via Chat Moss).
So the only people really inconvenienced are people doing through journeys like Warrington to Scarborough which can't be many people?
(Warrington still has a through service to Leeds)
Agreed - especially with your final part - you could run a much more efficient service and potentially six trains per hour (as far as Oxford Road) if you got rid of the long distance element - say running semi-fast as far as Warrington and running as a stopper on the other side (and vice versa) - but cramming long distance "fast" and short distance "slow" down the same two track railway doesn't work.
ChrisC
Established Member
Would it be a better option to permanently cut back the route to Manchester Piccadilly, then keep Norwich to Manchester with EMR, and not split the route at Nottingham?
If the problems with time keeping are all mainly in the Castlefield and Allerton areas plus getting from Piccadilly platforms 13/14 to Stockport, any new Nottingham to Liverpool Service, whoever runs it, is going to suffer the same delays. True, it won’t result in knock on poor time keeping miles away east of Nottingham but it will still mean delays between Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham and probably regular missed connections at Nottingham because the EMR train to Norwich will not be held.
If the problems with time keeping are all mainly in the Castlefield and Allerton areas plus getting from Piccadilly platforms 13/14 to Stockport, any new Nottingham to Liverpool Service, whoever runs it, is going to suffer the same delays. True, it won’t result in knock on poor time keeping miles away east of Nottingham but it will still mean delays between Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham and probably regular missed connections at Nottingham because the EMR train to Norwich will not be held.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Possibly. in the peak there appear to now be a few 6-car 195s on Liverpool services, and they're far from full. As long as Northern could guarantee that all MAN -> LIV services would be 5 or 6 cars, it would probably improve perfomance quite a bit.
Ultimately, however, I'd still be in favour of transferring the route to TPE rather than keeping it with EMR. The reason is that, with so many 185s set to be released over the coming year, they have a better chance of not short-forming the service. Shortforming is a massive problem between MAN and SHF, but once there are enough 185s for Cleethorpes and Nottingham services to both always be 6-car, this should be less of a problem.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
If the EMR stop a lot of the Norwich services coming to Liverpool it will really make me think twice about using the train to Manchester Airport. They came to my rescue last Sunday when Northern cancelled the direct service from Lime St. / South Parkway at short notice, even then I only just caught my flight.
frodshamfella
Established Member
I travelled from South Parkway to Norwich recently on a Sunday, it was very noticeable how many Liverpool to Sheffield , Nottingham and indeed Norwich reservation were on seats. I think somehow its most important to get from west to east without a change en route, not with luggage its a real hassle.
Incidentally the train was packed on arrival at South Parkway, im glad I had a reserved seat.
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Grumpy Git
On Moderation
People who run the railways in situations like this don't understand that most of the travelling public do not want to change trains. Certainly my wife would never dream of taking a non-direct service anywhere with luggage. I know that may seem silly to people who travel regularly like myself, but that is the truth of the matter.
frodshamfella
Established Member
It is so, if you told the average person who was going from Liverpool to Nottingham your going to have to change at Piccadilly , they will drive, and surely this is not what idea is .
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
........... and it's not always because of the physical upheaval of changing, it's the thought the train might be late and the connection missed, (or the connection being cancelled).
Jozhua
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Yes, it is true, however people who are used to using the service avoid it because it is always late/cancelled. There are many more journeys people take that are not currently covered by a direct service and the frequent delays mean they miss other connections.
I don't think anyone is desperate to deprive Liverpool of its direct connection, however the inability to run on time given current infrastructure constraints is of great frustration.
Personally, I think they should keep running the Liverpool service and cut back one of the Ordsall Chord TPE trains instead.
Jozhua
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Because they know that they'll miss their connection and the next one will likely also be delayed/cancelled, so the connection will probably take two hours lol.
Glenn1969
Established Member
I think most people are averse to changing trains, not just Northerners
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I was not referring to commuters. Do you have any experience of relying on a "northern" train service?
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