Liverpool Street former connection to Met Line..? How?

[D7666]

Not answering this specific question, but anyone interested in this sort of LT stuff generally might take a look at Harsigs pages :

Harsig's Signalling Page

assuming you don't already know of it.

 

[swt_passenger]

This, from the OS 1:1250 plan revised 1962, corresponds to the photo in post #21.

The unrevised on from 1951 (also on NLS) is almost the same, but lacks the funny-shaped building behind the pub and the lineside brick shed. So at that date the route to the tunnel would still have been clear and visible.

I found a thread in the District Dave forum earlier, a poster there thought that the brick building standing behind the signal box was built to house the kitchen for the staff cafeteria built within the disused tunnel.

found the link again:

SSL access to Liverpool Street Mainline Station | District Dave's London Underground Site

Doing some research recently I came across the information that when the Metropolitan Railway first got extended to Liverpool Street they actually used platforms in the mainline station, also looking

districtdavesforum.co.uk

 

[181]

In the 1970s it was very clear where the tracks from platforms 1 and 2 would have gone to connect with the underground, even without the benefit of accessing the canteen (that I have just learned of!). The rebuild of the station has left the features that I remember from those days very difficult to place in the current building.

The 1988 picture (https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2815228) may help. It shows the SW corner of the station almost as it would have been in the 1970s, except that the former connection to the Circle Line has been partly demolished for the start of new construction. I think the concrete structure in the left foreground, with the obvious rectangular cut-out, must be the westernmost of the two modern towers at the entrance (https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/34360), with the steel framework of the new part of the western wall of the station behind it; the high part of that framework must correspond to the gable at the west end of the present-day concourse (https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/7625682). In the middle distance of the 1988 picture, to the left of the old tower and with 3 arches at the bottom, is the south side of the building under whose north side the former connection can be seen disappearing in the 1920s pictures linked to from post #13.

Can anyone remember what was behind the platform 1 and 2 buffer stops in the 1970s and early 1980s? Was it just a plain brick wall? I don't remember noticing anything that looked like a blocked-off tunnel entrance, but I only used the station occasionally and may only have used those platforms once.

 

[306024]

More information here, including reference to the Iron Lung, aka the staff canteen.

LIVERPOOL STREET STATION'S MET CONNECTION - The LNER Encyclopedia

 

[Russel]

It's never occurred to me that the platforms at Liverpool Street are below street level, but then, you do have to descend stairs to enter the station, so I suppose it's obvious, when you stop and think about it...

Are the mainline platforms and LU platforms roughly at the same height or would there have been a gradient in the tunnel to connect the two?

 

[Magdalia]

It's never occurred to me that the platforms at Liverpool Street are below street level, but then, you do have to descend stairs to enter the station, so I suppose it's obvious, when you stop and think about it...

Are the mainline platforms and LU platforms roughly at the same height or would there have been a gradient in the tunnel to connect the two?

The GER platforms are slightly higher than the Metropolitan platforms, but not by much. Coming off the eastbound Metropolitan platform there are, if I remember right, three steps up to the LU ticket barriers, and then about seven more from the LU ticket barriers to the GER concourse. The height difference is less than downstairs to upstairs in a house.

Strangely, I don't remember there being any steps in the old passageway from the buffer stop end of platform 10 to the eastbound Metropolitan platform that existed prior to the 1980s redevelopment.

 

[Snow1964]

There was a time (around 1989 from memory) during the rebuild of Liverpool Street that part of the old platforms were uncovered.

Platform 1 and 2 used to extend under the road to the Met, years later the trackbed was filled in and concourse was extended across (originally platform 1 could only be reached by a footbridge). This concourse was roughly where 3rd or 4th car from buffers now stops (platforms 1-7 used to be shorter roughly 9cars long, and are now the outer ends of current platforms). Although 5 onwards were rebuilt sideways as engine release roads were removed during rebuild in late 1980s.

During late 1980s basically dug a big hole to basement level, including through old connection tunnel, and added a new Central line ticket hall, then extended platforms 1-6 over this hall. Where the old concourse had been, they filled in underground toilets. But if you stand on platform 1 or 2 and look at the platform edge about 4 car lengths from buffers, looking across to other platform will see it as brick (the original longer platforms that were part of the connection). Look at platform 3 and 4 and at same point it is all new (the bit over the former underground toilet in the concourse).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Thanks a lot all, very interesting for me to see all this! That 1895 plan of the station makes it look like it was basically totally cut in half by those long tracks right in the middle!

It was - the main platforms extended under the hotel and allowed supplies to the hotel to be delivered by rail right to its goods entrance.
The long platforms were originally the easternmost pair - the arrivals platform being separated from the rest of the station didn't matter as arriving passengers would be expected to pass straight through and have no need for facilities such as booking office or waiting rooms. However, as the site was constrained to the west by the presence of Broad Street station, expansion in the 1890s could only be to the east, leaving the long platforms inconveniently in the middle of the expanded station.

 

[Taunton]

The disused bay at Liverpool St was on the right in that view, ie behind the westbound platform. It’s all been hidden by new building during the Crossrail alterations.

I found an earlier YouTube cab view from 1989, the bay platform was unusable by then, (I read since 1981)

Maybe for signalled passenger operations. I came down onto the Inner Rail platform one weekday in what must have been 1982 or later, and there was Sarah Siddons, the Met's historic electric loco, parked in the bay.

Thanks a lot all, very interesting for me to see all this! That 1895 plan of the station makes it look like it was basically totally cut in half by those long tracks right in the middle!

As others describe, it long stayed like that. The major Liverpool Street pedestrian entrance from Bishopsgate is above the tracks, and a high level walkway, still somewhat there in the new layout, was the principal walking route to the West Side low numbered platforms, including booking office windows and passing over the tracks of the middle platforms 9 and 10. Originally these tracks had extended beyond the later bufferstops to beneath the hotel, and were used for wagonloads of coal in and rubbish out for that establishment. These platforms were of course used for the longest trains, Norwich expresses and the Harwich boat trains.

One of three levels of walking route along the concourse line, for there was also a gloomy foot tunnel, entered down steps by platform 18, which ran right underneath the concourse, and under the 9/10 tracks, to the Central Line entry at the other side of the station. It had a notable hump in the middle, which was where it passed over the Post Office railway tunnel.

Must have been 1979 and I arrived midday at the station. There had been a bufferstop collision at the inner end on No 9 which had impacted through to the concourse walkway round the back. The buffers must have been not too substantial because all the paving behind was broken and buckled, the asphalt twisted up vertically, and a substantial civil engineering gang were working at full pace fixing it all behind temporary barriers hurriedly put up. Never found any report into it so likely was a parcels/ECS train that hit it.

 

[181]

The long platforms were originally the easternmost pair - the arrivals platform being separated from the rest of the station didn't matter as arriving passengers would be expected to pass straight through and have no need for facilities such as booking office or waiting rooms. However, as the site was constrained to the west by the presence of Broad Street station, expansion in the 1890s could only be to the east, leaving the long platforms inconveniently in the middle of the expanded station.

Wikipedia has a plan of the station before the 1890s extension: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...l_Street_and_Broad_Street_stations_(plan).jpg. Note that it includes Broad Street next door (whose platforms were well above street level). 'Suburban Approach' indicates the roadway under which the Met connection ran.

 

[Russel]

So, if we go back to the photo linked earlier on the NRM website of the tunnel portal, where would this be located in comparison to the modern day Liverpool Street, would this be roughly where the escalators are now that lead up to the McDonalds exit?

https://nrm.printstoreonline.com/lo...t-station-great-eastern-railway-10013528.html

 

[Alfie1014]

In the early 1980s my Dad worked in BR offices at Liverpool St. On visiting him one day during a school holiday, we went to the station's subterranean staff canteen for lunch and he explained the unusual curved shape and arched roof of the room was due to its location in the old connecting tunnel. This was shortly before the huge Broadgate redevelopment and associated works at Liverpool St station. I don't know if any remnants survive today.

When I first worked at Liverpool Street (1982) I used to occasionally use the canteen which was operated by LT. It was a very gloomy place mostly used by bus crews and Underground staff, Smokey and it sold alcohol! From memory (now over 40 years ago) the food wasn’t very good though, certainly not compared to Stevenson Rooms at from when I moved back to BR Euston which was a different world in so many ways!

 

[Haywain]

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and what I can recall from the 1970s is that from the end of platforms 1 and 2 it was quite obvious where the tracks would have gone, to a point where a wall blocked the route off. Without actually knowing about a connection I always knew that there had to have been one, and often mulled over such thoughts as I walked up or down the adjacent ramp in or out of the station.

Meanwhile, a friend who doesn't post here has been reading the thread and sent me the following in an email:

The 'recreation' bit of the Liv St connecting tunnel was a BRSA which included a badminton court. I went there one evening in the summer of 1977 to attempt to play the game with some colleagues. I was conscious of it's origins.

I think the drinking in the pub on the underground station afterwards was a bit more successful.

Mention is also made of the bay platform on the inner rail side which I remember in use by A60s on Met services. It originally had a headshunt at the west end, where released Met locos would wait to drop onto the next arrival.

I seem to recall the bay went because it had too little room at the east end to meet modern over-run standards?


Photo shows LT electric loco arriving into bay platform at Liverpool Street while another loco waits in the headshunt. Photo sourced from an eBay listing.

 

[delt1c]

Worked on the number 11 bus in 70's and 80's and we had our meal relief at Liverpool St. the LT canteen used the old formation of the link from Met to Liverpool
st. As you sat in the canteen there were windows ( usually open) which you could watch the circle and Met trains passing.

 

[martin2345uk]

I'm assuming it was a cut and cover tunnel?

 

[David Burrows]

In the mid-1960s, when I worked in the Train Enquiry and Seat Reservation office on platform 9, we regularly used the BR staff resteraunt, situated in the old connecting tunnel referred to above. It was accessed by a nondiscript door off the walkway from the West Side taxi area to the Met.Line ticket office. The staff resteraunt, I remember was somwhat dimly lit, but had very friendly staff and the food was quite adequate and a varied menu. There was a distinct curve in the tunnel and there was a sporting area in the next section of the tunnel which I never visited.
I believe the canteen was only used by clerical grades, of which there were many employed in the Divisional Offices situated around the station and in Hamilton House, the railway office block adjacent to the station in Bishopsgate and was only open at lunchtimes, Monday to Friday.
Since the Enquiry Office was open at all hours, we were also (I believe unofficially) granted access to the LT staff canteen, situated, as previously mentioned, at the end of the tunnel adjacent to the Met Line and one could watch the trains passing while one ate. Not such good food, but adequate if one fancied 'Spam, Egg and Chips' and 'Sticky Toffee Pud' sort of fare. Better than nothing and available in the evenings and at weekends. In evenings and weekends, when I used it there was usually only one member of staff on duty, but would happily freshly cook whatever combinations of the fare which they had in stock and i remember that the charges seemed to vary from day to day depending on which member of staff was on duty. This was a comparitively small area, but a curve was still obvious.

 

[theageofthetra]

I found a decent photo on Flickr from 1982, although looking to the west, it clearly shows the curve of the early brick buildings at street level, please compare with the OS map extract in post #6 above.

Even by 1982 there were small brick buildings hiding the route of the curve, it would be quite difficult to see from a passing train:

Liverpool Street (Met) by Kevin Lane, on Flickr

Now, Ive found a good description of the route and its history in a Crossrail learning legacy “built heritage” report. They use the name Queen Victoria Tunnel, and there’s a layout on the pdf page 6 and a one page summary of the tunnel’s use on pdf page 31. The last use was apparently in 1907:

https://learninglegacy.crossrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/BHR-report-former-BTH-and-Queen-Victoria-tunnel-C257-MLA-T1-RGN-C101-50001.pdf

Absolutely fascinating that pdf. The old posters that were just left and wiring laid across them.

 

[mr_jrt]

I'm assuming it was a cut and cover tunnel?

Most likely. IIRC, Liverpool Street was built after the Met, and was built at a lower level partly to facilitate the connection. Looking at the alignment of the tunnel, it avoided the front of Broad Street station and ran under the road, the old suburban entry ramp, booking office and finally concourse.

 

[edwin_m]

Most likely. IIRC, Liverpool Street was built after the Met, and was built at a lower level partly to facilitate the connection. Looking at the alignment of the tunnel, it avoided the front of Broad Street station and ran under the road, the old suburban entry ramp, booking office and finally concourse.

Earlier posts suggested that the Met used this curve to terminate in the main line station before their own was ready, which suggest the main line station was there first.

 

[MarkyT]

Earlier posts suggested that the Met used this curve to terminate in the main line station before their own was ready, which suggest the main line station was there first.

It's interesting to speculate that the Metropolitan Railway might have become a cross-London line if their desired connection via Liverpool Street to Whitechapel and the East London Line had come about. The GER wouldn't allow Met trains to cross their entire main line throat to get to Shoreditch, but a new ramp up and over the main line through Bishopsgate Goods might have worked. The Met could also join the ELR via St Mary's curve near Whitechapel, but that involved interrunning with District services on the busy section east of Aldgate. Passenger services via that connection finished in 1939 though it was retained for empty stock transfers until final closure as part of the LO conversion.

 

[etr221]

It's interesting to speculate that the Metropolitan Railway might have become a cross-London line if their desired connection via Liverpool Street to Whitechapel and the East London Line had come about. The GER wouldn't allow Met trains to cross their entire main line throat to get to Shoreditch, but a new ramp up and over the main line through Bishopsgate Goods might have worked. The Met could also join the ELR via St Mary's curve near Whitechapel, but that involved interrunning with District services on the busy section east of Aldgate. Passenger services via that connection finished in 1939 though it was retained for empty stock transfers until final closure as part of the LO conversion.

Something I wonder is whether a connection from the Met onto the GER on other (south/east) side of Liverpool Street, i.e. on the optimum side for a link to Whitechapel and the ELR, would have been practicable, had it been done at construction time.

 

[edwin_m]

Something I wonder is whether a connection from the Met onto the GER on other (south/east) side of Liverpool Street, i.e. on the optimum side for a link to Whitechapel and the ELR, would have been practicable, had it been done at construction time.

Such a route already existed, albeit with reversal, until the northern end of the ELR was disconnected at Shoreditch.

 

[etr221]

Such a route already existed, albeit with reversal, until the northern end of the ELR was disconnected at Shoreditch.

To clarify, my thought is over a curve running just of Liverpool Street Met Stn round to the east of Liverpool Street GER station (matching that on the side of Liverpool St GER, that did exist and we have been discussing), permitting direct access from the ELR at Whitechapel, through Shoreditch, Liverpool St GE, onto the Met/Circle at Liverpool St Met, and to Moorgate and beyond.

 

[edwin_m]

To clarify, my thought is over a curve running just of Liverpool Street Met Stn round to the east of Liverpool Street GER station (matching that on the side of Liverpool St GER, that did exist and we have been discussing), permitting direct access from the ELR at Whitechapel, through Shoreditch, Liverpool St GE, onto the Met/Circle at Liverpool St Met, and to Moorgate and beyond.

There was a curve at Whitechapel that allowed this via Aldgate, connecting all stations except Whitechapel (connected to Moorgate etc by other services) and Shoreditch.

 

[mr_jrt]

Earlier posts suggested that the Met used this curve to terminate in the main line station before their own was ready, which suggest the main line station was there first.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The Met existed first, but terminated at Moorgate. I believe that they extended to Liverpool Street when it was built, and as plans and corporate politics changed, very quickly decided to head for Aldgate instead, possibly related to parliament's insistence on completing the Circle line to ensure that as much of the mileage was theirs rather than the District's.

 

[rogercov]

I found a thread in the District Dave forum earlier, a poster there thought that the brick building standing behind the signal box was built to house the kitchen for the staff cafeteria built within the disused tunnel.

I can definitely recollect a journey on the Circle Line, possibly in the late 50s, when the tunnel entrance was visible. Perhaps it was just before the construction of the kitchen. I only saw it once, briefly while the train was passing, but the tunnel itself was well-lit and I could see it curving away. I looked out for it on subsequent occasions by which time the entrance was obscured by the building.

Here are a couple of my pictures of platforms 1 and 2 in the 1980s when Liverpool Street was being rebuilt which match up with some of the earlier pictures on this thread.

 

[Roger1973]

I have a vague memory of visiting the BRSA club (or whatever it was called) some time, must have been late 70s / early 80s, with my late father, for a model railway exhibition.

And the London Transport canteen was (not from personal memory) one of the few on the system that was open 24/7 (or maybe not Saturday night in to Sunday morning when most of the night buses didn't run) as it catered for night bus crews who took their meal break there (some routes terminated there, some other routes ran odd journeys there, either in service or 'dead' from Aldgate or Ludgate Circus or wherever. (At that time, most night routes worked on the basis that each crew stayed with the same bus for their whole duty, so both bus and crew took a break somewhere in the night.)

This was certainly the case until the night bus network was reorganised in the mid 80s when LT also realised there was demand for night buses on Saturday night. (the network had been designed to cater primarily for postal workers, workers at the wholesale markets, early morning office cleaners and Fleet Street print workers finishing work in the early hours.)

 

[chris.lambert.]

I found a decent photo on Flickr from 1982, although looking to the west, it clearly shows the curve of the early brick buildings at street level, please compare with the OS map extract in post #6 above.

Even by 1982 there were small brick buildings hiding the route of the curve, it would be quite difficult to see from a passing train:

Liverpool Street (Met) by Kevin Lane, on Flickr

Now, Ive found a good description of the route and its history in a Crossrail learning legacy “built heritage” report. They use the name Queen Victoria Tunnel, and there’s a layout on the pdf page 6 and a one page summary of the tunnel’s use on pdf page 31. The last use was apparently in 1907:

https://learninglegacy.crossrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/BHR-report-former-BTH-and-Queen-Victoria-tunnel-C257-MLA-T1-RGN-C101-50001.pdf

The connection ran behind the signalbox, I.e. the signalbox is in the V of the junction - which it controlled. If you look left as you approach L Street from Moorgate you can see the wall built across the connecting tunnel (or you could when I was last there a few years ago).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Something I wonder is whether a connection from the Met onto the GER on other (south/east) side of Liverpool Street, i.e. on the optimum side for a link to Whitechapel and the ELR, would have been practicable, had it been done at construction time.

The easetrn platfofrms at Liverpool Street were only added in the 1890s. Until then the easternmost platforms were the two long ones which extended under the hotel, close to and roughly at right angles to the Met station

 

[swt_passenger]

The connection ran behind the signalbox, I.e. the signalbox is in the V of the junction - which it controlled. If you look left as you approach L Street from Moorgate you can see the wall built across the connecting tunnel (or you could when I was last there a few years ago).

I think we had confirmed that with the OS map in post #6? The aim of my Flickr linked photo was to show how the original brick buildings curved to match the track alignment, before the more modern concrete builds had mostly obscured the view.