Liverpool to Cleethorpes

[scotc]

Right, I'm a little bit strapped, so if anyone's got any ideas where are good splitting points that'd be great.

Leaving Liverpool (Lime Street, Wavertree, or South Parkway, anys fine) arriving Saturday (1st May) early afternoon.

Leaving Cleethorpes early evening same day.

Got a young persons railcard if that helps.

Any help much appreciated.

 

[yorkie]

The through Off Peak Return (SVR) is £42.20, valid at any time for return within 1 month. No Off Peak Day is available.

There are many places you can split the ticket into a combination of tickets. Assuming you don't mind the loss of flexibility to be tied to the South TPE (Hope Valley) route you can split at places like Warrington, Manchester, Stockport, Sheffield, Doncaster...

The cheapest Sheffield-Cleethorpes is probably Nottingham-Cleethorpes. Manchester-Stockport is dirt cheap. If you don't mind a slower journey then the Northern stoppers between Manchester & Sheffield provide further splits. I believe a split at Thorne helps if using Northern stoppers between Scunthorpe and Donny.

As you are returning the same day I am guessing you'd rather not take a slower option?

Have you tried Advance tickets? If there any left, you can get a 50% discount (rather than the usual 34%) if you book online using the TPE website. If no through Advance fare is available, first try splitting at Manchester. A further split at Sheffield may help if the fare from Manchester to Cleethorpes seems expensive.

 

[323235]

Looking at Liverpool Lime Street - Cleethorpes
There are still some £6.85/£8.15 Through Advance Fares available for the outward leg on the 0822/1022. For the Return there are some £7.40 Advances for the 1728.

TPE 50% Railcard Discount Link

 

[tony_mac]

the advances sound good.

It is marginally cheaper from St Helens Central than from Liverpool stations.

 

[David]

The best way to split is Liverpool - Manchester (£6.55 CDR), and Hyde North - Cleethorpes (£12.50 CDR). Total cost £19.05 with a 16-25 railcard

(Ta Jordy for letting me know about the Hyde North ticket.)

 

[scotc]

Re: The Hyde North and St Helens Central tickets- are they valid via Manchester and Liverpool respectively?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[clagmonster]

David/Jordy, please may I ask how Hyde North-Cleethorpes is valid via Manchester.
There are no direct trains, so that rule doesn't apply.
The next possibility is the shortest route.
Hyde North-Romily 4 miles
Romily-Sheffield 34.5 miles
Sheffield-Doncaster 19 miles
Doncaster-Cleethorpes 52 miles
Total 109.5 miles

Hyde North-Manchester Piccadilly 6.5 miles
Manchester Piccadilly-Doncaster 61.75 miles
Doncaster-Cleethorpes 52 miles
Total 120.25 miles, more than 3 miles longer than the route via Romily, so this rule doesn't apply.

Therefore, the only remaining option is to consult the National Routeing Guide.
Hyde North is a related station to Chinley, Guide Bridge and the Manchester group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

To find which of these routeing points is appropriate, we must use the fares check rule.
Hyde North-Cleethorpes:
CDS £18.80
SDS £19.70

Chinley-Cleethorpes:
CDS £17.50
SDS £18.50
Both less than the equivalent Hyde North fare, so Chinley is an appropriate routeing point.

Guide Bridge-Cleethorpes
SDS £30.10, more than the equivalent Hyde North fare, so Guide Bridge is not an appropriate routeing point.

Manchester Stns-Cleethorpes
SDS £30.10, more than the equivalent Hyde North fare, so the Manchester Group is not an appropriate routeing point.

Cleethorpes is a related station to Barnetby.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

The valid routes are therefore the shortest route from Hyde North to Chinley, which is via Romily, then any mapped route from Chinley to Barnetby using the routeing permissions, then Barnetby-Cleethorpes direct.
The routeing permissions for Chinley-Barnetby are: SH only.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

This allows:
Chinley-Worksop-Retford-Gainsborough Central-Barnetby
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf

The only remaining option is to look for an easement. As far as I can see, there is no relevent easement.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/easements.pdf

Jordy and David, am I missing something? If so, please could you point me in the right direction.

 

[John @ home]

am I missing something? If so, please could you point me in the right direction.

My guess is that the reason the journey planners allow Hyde North - Chinley via Manchester is due to an interpretation of this sentence:

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest distance between them which has a regular scheduled train service whether or not it passes through that routeing point.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf

There is a common Routeing Point (Chinley) for a Hyde North - Chinley journey and this sentence introduces the concept of a regular scheduled train service, but does not define it.

It is not surprising that the concept is then extended to apply to longer journeys such as Hyde North - Cleethorpes. There would be many more anomalies in the Routeing Guide if different definitions of shortest route were used for shorter journeys and for longer journeys.

An extreme example of the lack of a regular scheduled train service applies to a Chinley - Leeds journey. The shortest route by rail is Chinley - Romiley - Guide Bridge - Dewsbury - Leeds. The National Routeing Guide states that The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable (59 Mbytes) (NRT). Unfortunately this does not enable us to calculate the length of this route because no distance is given for Guide Bridge - Stalybridge.

But Network Rail publish track and route mileage here and from this a distance for Guide Bridge - Stalybridge of 2 miles 35 chains may be calculated.

Rounding that to 2.5 miles gives a shortest Chinley - Leeds distance of 52.25 miles. This is important because the one journey opportunity a week in one direction only is significantly shorter than the shortest mapped route, via Moorthorpe, which the NRT calculates as 64.25 miles.

Fridays only
07:55 Chinley - Romiley 08:13
08:20 Romiley - Guide Bridge 08:33
09:43 Guide Bridge - Stalybridge 09:49
10:26 Stalybridge - Leeds 11:09

This is why Chinley - Leeds is allowed via Manchester. The shortest such journey, via Reddish North and Gorton, 59.25 miles in NRT, is still 5 miles less than the shortest mapped route and qualifies as the shortest ... which has a regular scheduled train service.

 

[tony_mac]

Sorry if I am being a bit dense, but are you saying that Hyde North to Cleethorpes is valid via Manchester as it's the shortest 'regular' route?

If so, that means that travel must be via Wakefield and not Leeds or Sheffield, doesn't it?

As for St Helens; National Rail says that it's valid but you must go from Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington and not Huyton. (If you put in from Prescot and via Liverpool, then you should get some valid options via Warrington).
(I am not sure they are technically correct, as you can't seem to travel directly via Huyton due to the fares check rule. However, I think there are some valid routes that do go via Liverpool, but if they say it is valid then that is supposed to be 'definitive')

 

[John @ home]

are you saying that Hyde North to Cleethorpes is valid via Manchester as it's the shortest 'regular' route?

Not necessarily. I am guessing a possible answer to clagmonster's question Am I missing something?.

If so, that means that travel must be via Wakefield and not Leeds or Sheffield, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. It's a close-run thing.

Manchester - Cleethorpes via Wakefield
Manchester Piccadilly - Mirfield 30.5 miles (Table 39)
Mirfield - Wakefield Westgate via Wakefield Kirkgate 10.5 miles (Table 39)
Wakefield Westgate - Doncaster 19.75 miles (Table 26)
Doncaster - Cleethorpes 52 miles (Table 29)
Total 112.75 miles

Manchester - Cleethorpes via Brinnington
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via Brinnington 42 miles (Table 78 )
Sheffield - Doncaster 19 miles (Table 29)
Doncaster - Cleethorpes 52 miles (Table 29)
Total 113 miles

One thing we don't know is whether the 3-mile rule - Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route. - applies to the absolute shortest distance by rail or the shortest distance which has a regular scheduled train service. The routeings available from journey planners suggest the latter.

We also don't know how frequent a service needs to be to qualify as a regular scheduled train service.

Finally, quite an important thing we don't yet know is what will be the effect of mileages not being published in the National Rail Timetable due to take effect next month - see this thread.

 

[tony_mac]

I had assumed that Sheffield was further!

In that case, surely directly to Sheffield would be the shortest route, with no chance of going via Manchester?

 

[David]

The various booking engines say change at Sheffield, with a further change at Romiley (as no trains from Sheffield call at Hyde North), but here's the catch ....

The change at Sheffield is not valid, due to the minimum connection time of 7 minutes. The TPE service from Cleethorpes arrives at xx08, with the Northern service leaving at xx14, thus leaving only 6 minutes.

If going via Manchester is not a valid route, then the only valid route is Cleethorpes - Stockport - New Mills Central, walk to New Mills Newtown - Romiley, and change there (with a 24 minute wait) to Hyde North

 

[tony_mac]

The change at Sheffield is not valid, due to the minimum connection time of 7 minutes. The TPE service from Cleethorpes arrives at xx08, with the Northern service leaving at xx14, thus leaving only 6 minutes

I'm not really sure what you are saying, possibly missing a connection doesn't mean it isn't a valid route - you just wait for the next train.

It may be quicker to travel via Manchester, but that doesn't make it a valid route (although perhaps it should, but that's another subject entirely).
Do you have some reason for believing that via Manchester is allowed?

 

[John @ home]

surely directly to Sheffield would be the shortest route

The shortest route is Hyde North - Guide Bridge - Stalybridge - Wakefield Kirkgate - Wakefield Westgate - Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Cleethorpes. But there is only one journey opportunity a week in one direction by this route.

with no chance of going via Manchester?

That depends on the interpretation of the words in the Routeing Guide:

the shortest distance which has a regular scheduled train service

We don't know what rules the journey planners use to interpret these words.

But there is an interesting result if you use eastcoast.co.uk to search for a return Hyde North - Chinley journey on a weekday. 5 of the 13 outward journeys offered and 3 of the 12 return legs involve doubling back via Manchester.

 

[tony_mac]

The shortest route is Hyde North - Guide Bridge - Stalybridge - Wakefield Kirkgate - Wakefield Westgate - Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Cleethorpes. But there is only one journey opportunity a week in one direction by this route.

that may be the shortest route, but Hyde North - Chinley - Sheffield - Doncaster - is also a short route, and does have a regular service. Surely, any route going via Manchester is going to be more than 3 miles longer than this route?
(You noted that the routes are almost the same distance from Manchester, and Hyde North is considerably more than 3 miles away from Manchester, closer to Sheffield)

 

[A60K]

That old chestnut 'regular'! I remember Barry Doe pointing out some years ago that Fishguard had the most 'regular' scheduled service in the UK - one train every 12 hours...

 

[clagmonster]

The schematic maps on the Network Rail website define some lines, such as Stockport-Guide Bridge-Stlaybridge, as having a limited service:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec09/Schematic Map.pdf
This is also the case on the network maps at the start of certain timetables:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec09/timetables/Table78.pdf
This is the only reference in the public domain that I know of that define whether routes have a regular or irregular service, so whlst not stated in the routeing guide, I think it is fare to use it as a guide. In any case, I don't think it can be argued that Hyde North-Romiley-Sheffield, with a train every two hours is an irregular service.

Also, it is worth pointing out that on both the WebTis and Trainline based journey planners, I have tried and failed to generate any route other than via Romiley and Sheffield.

 

[John @ home]

I remember Barry Doe pointing out some years ago that Fishguard had the most 'regular' scheduled service in the UK - one train every 12 hours...

And currently one can say that Guide Bridge - Stalybridge is the most 'regular' scheduled service in Britain - one train every 168 hours.