Liverpool to London with London Midland

[eastend43]

Hi

Could someone help me with the validity for the London Midland Super Off Peak return validity between Liverpool and London Euston? The restriction code is LF.

First of all, what the easiest way of finding these tickets online? I can't work out how to do it with NRE, so I usually go through virgintrains with the 'check for cheaper trains' option. Is there an easier way?

When I use that site it offers the weekday trains leaving Liverpool at xx:34 from 10:34 up to 14:34, changing at Stafford. The next one it offers is the 15:04 changing at Crewe which takes about 30 minutes longer. It does not offer the 15:34 from Liverpool changing at Stafford. Is that because the connection at Stafford leaves after 16:30 which is the start of the evening peak for that restriction? But the restriction code says -

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART the origin station on the ticket between 1630 and 1930 in either direction...

I would have interpreted 'DEPART the origin station on the ticket' as referring to the time the journey starts in Liverpool. Am I reading this wrong and does the restriction actually restrict changing onto a train at Stafford in the peak? Even it it meant departing the origin station of the actual train, that would still be before 16:30 as it is the 15:45 departure from Crewe.

Coming back, the virgintrains site offers departures from Euston at xx:46 changing at Stafford starting with the 10:46 up to the 13:46. It doesn't offer the 14:46 (the connection from Stafford leaves at 17:10) and has the next one at 15:46, connecting at Crewe onto the 19:32. Again that seems to suggest to me that connecting in the peak is not allowed.

There is, of course, the easement allowing the 18:05 departure from Euston for passengers travelling north of Norton Bridge.

Am I reading the restrictions wrong or is there something up with the booking engine the virgintrains website uses? If I were to get the 15:34 from Liverpool or the 14:46 from London would it cause problems?

Thanks, and hope this all makes sense

 

[Deerfold]

I'd suggest on my favourite booking engine...


On Eastcoast.co.uk select your times as normal with no "via". At this point this will give lots of trains you can't catch.

Then in the bottom left hand side click on "select a route" then tick "via London Midland trains" and "via London Midland Trains only".

Then you can select the ticket price you're wanting at the top and it'll show valid trains.

Howver likewise this does not offer the 1446 from Euston.

I cannot find a restriction code LF in the list on NRE... http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf

 

[sarahj]

If your going London midland trains only, I guess you have lots of free time. I once looked at seeing how far north I could get with my free staff pass and worked out the journey time to Liverpool was over 4 hours!!!.

 

[causton]

If your going London midland trains only, I guess you have lots of free time. I once looked at seeing how far north I could get with my free staff pass and worked out the journey time to Liverpool was over 4 hours!!!.

Yes, the only problem with that. Same with a London Midland Great Escape - as you can't use it before the 0946 (?) service from Euston you can't get to Liverpool before about 2pm!

 

[SS4]

First of all, what the easiest way of finding these tickets online? I can't work out how to do it with NRE, so I usually go through virgintrains with the 'check for cheaper trains' option. Is there an easier way?

Specify via Northampton in the journey planner. If you use a webtis engine (eg LM) you can filter by TOC and so pick LM only

When I use that site it offers the weekday trains leaving Liverpool at xx:34 from 10:34 up to 14:34, changing at Stafford. The next one it offers is the 15:04 changing at Crewe which takes about 30 minutes longer. It does not offer the 15:34 from Liverpool changing at Stafford. Is that because the connection at Stafford leaves after 16:30 which is the start of the evening peak for that restriction? But the restriction code says -

I would have interpreted 'DEPART the origin station on the ticket' as referring to the time the journey starts in Liverpool. Am I reading this wrong and does the restriction actually restrict changing onto a train at Stafford in the peak? Even it it meant departing the origin station of the actual train, that would still be before 16:30 as it is the 15:45 departure from Crewe.

Coming back, the virgintrains site offers departures from Euston at xx:46 changing at Stafford starting with the 10:46 up to the 13:46. It doesn't offer the 14:46 (the connection from Stafford leaves at 17:10) and has the next one at 15:46, connecting at Crewe onto the 19:32. Again that seems to suggest to me that connecting in the peak is not allowed.

There is, of course, the easement allowing the 18:05 departure from Euston for passengers travelling north of Norton Bridge.

Am I reading the restrictions wrong or is there something up with the booking engine the virgintrains website uses? If I were to get the 15:34 from Liverpool or the 14:46 from London would it cause problems?

Thanks, and hope this all makes sense

I read it the same as you and using the part of the code which says

A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

[/QUOTE]

Whether it would cause problems is dependent on how observant the guard is and what their interpretation is. You can only be excessed to the cheapest valid ticket (the Off-Peak return) for travelling at the wrong time

 

[greatkingrat]

The full text of code LF is

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to arrive London Terminals before 13:00.
Not valid for travel on northbound London Midland services timed to depart London Terminals or any other station, before 10:30.
Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket between 16:30 and 19:30 in either direction except for travel on the 18:05 service for customers holding tickets from London Euston for stations between Norton Bridge and Liverpool Lime Street inclusive and on the 18:46 Saturday service from Euston to stations between Nuneaton and Crewe inclusive. An easement also applies southwards on the 19:02 Crewe to Northampton service.
A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

So it seems clear the intention is that as long as you Liverpool or Euston before 1630, that is fine, it is doesn't matter what time the connecting service leaves.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Specify via Northampton in the journey planner.

Most LM Euston-Stafford-Crewe trains (Mon-Sat) do not go via Northampton although I suppose you could change at New Street instead

 

[pemma]

There did used to be one direct LM Liverpool-London service per day (southbound only) but that was withdrawn along with the one direct LM Birmingham-Preston service per day (northbound only.)

 

[sonic2009]

You will not be able to use a Super Off Peak Return Route London Midland only on the 1504 from Liverpool Lime Street service changing at Crewe, as your connecting service from Crewe - London is a Virgin train, as to which London Midland tickets are not valid on Virgin services.

You can travel on the 1504 from Liverpool - Crewe and catch a connecting service to London with London Midland though.

 

[SS4]

Most LM Euston-Stafford-Crewe trains (Mon-Sat) do not go via Northampton although I suppose you could change at New Street instead

D'oh! Completely forgot about that

 

[eastend43]

You will not be able to use a Super Off Peak Return Route London Midland only on the 1504 from Liverpool Lime Street service changing at Crewe, as your connecting service from Crewe - London is a Virgin train, as to which London Midland tickets are not valid on Virgin services.

You can travel on the 1504 from Liverpool - Crewe and catch a connecting service to London with London Midland though.

Hi, thanks for all the replies. The 15:04 I was looking at connected onto a London Midland one, although you are right, there would be quicker connection onto a Virgin train.

Most journeys from Liverpool to London take 3 hours 15 minutes. Just over an hour longer but £29 return instead of £77.40. London to Liverpool is usually 3 hours 24 minutes. It's only the journeys that want to stop you connecting during the peak period that are over the 4 hours.

I used to do Glasgow to London a lot so under 3.5 hours isn't too much of a hardship for me.

I'll look into booking with alternative sites. I'm trying to book the tickets for Spanish guests, so it's probably safer if they stick to the trains that the websites suggest.

 

[pemma]

I'll look into booking with alternative sites. I'm trying to book the tickets for Spanish guests, so it's probably safer if they stick to the trains that the websites suggest.

Based on the cost of Renfe tickets and the state of the Spanish economy I think your Spanish guests may have a heart attack if they saw the Anytime fares for Liverpool to London.

 

[burns20]

I did this this weekend.

Going down was a nightmare nightmare London Midland to Stafford started at Liverpool South Parkway with no information at Lime St apart from showing cancelled but on asking at information kiosk was told to travel to LSP. No announcement. 20 late leaving LSP towards Stafford...don't worry says the guard if we miss the connection at Stafford Virgin are validating tickets for travel on their services. Alight at Stafford missing LM to Euston by 2 mins. Go to booking office and ask for ticket to be validated. Smirked at and told London midland are always doing this, we never validate tickets so 58 mins on a cold wet platform as at 1758 Pumpkin and WHSmiths was closed. So an hour late into Euston with further journey to make on a disrupted Finsbury Park to Enfield Chase line.

Coming back was no problem and took 3hr24 departing on the 1346 Euston to Stafford.

Not bad for £29.

 

[Deerfold]

Not bad for £29.

Did you claim Delay Repay on that?

 

[tony_mac]

Am I reading the restrictions wrong or is there something up with the booking engine the virgintrains website uses?

There is something wrong with the booking engines. I told London Midland it was wrong in 2009.

 

[eastend43]

Based on the cost of Renfe tickets and the state of the Spanish economy I think your Spanish guests may have a heart attack if they saw the Anytime fares for Liverpool to London.

Moving from Glasgow to Liverpool gave me quite a shock with the Anytime fares. Returning to Glasgow after working in London I could start my journey from Euston whenever was convenient for the price of the £126.70 return, now I either have to wait until after 7pm or stump up for £289 anytime fare. With the peak period starting at 3, the last direct Virgin train I can get back to Liverpool is the 14.07. So for a meeting finishing at 2 it's a long wait in the pub. NRE also suggests I can get the 14.40 out of Euston and change.

I'm trying to think of ways of getting out of London at a more sensible time without forking out almost £300, splitting at Milton Keynes perhaps, but so far I have just found it easier sitting in a pub.

Did you claim Delay Repay on that?

I've used the London Midland services about 6 times now - only had one delay and it was easy enough to claim the Delay Repay.

 

[pemma]

I'm trying to think of ways of getting out of London at a more sensible time without forking out almost £300, splitting at Milton Keynes perhaps, but so far I have just found it easier sitting in a pub.

The MSE ticket split tool: http://splitticket.moneysavingexpert.com/ suggest Rugby as a place to split to save money.

 

[Eagle]

The MSE ticket split tool: http://splitticket.moneysavingexpert.com/ suggest Rugby as a place to split to save money.

Good luck finding a fast service that calls at Rugby though :P

 

[pemma]

Good luck finding a fast service that calls at Rugby though :P

05:27 service southbound from Lime Street.

17:33 and 18:33 services northbound from Euston.

Still could be useful though if you can catch an off-peak train southbound but need to catch a peak train northbound.

The other alternative it gave was splitting at Hartford. However, that requires you to use the Liverpool to Birmingham services which call at Hartford and to change to a Virgin service at Crewe.

 

[All Line Rover]

If your going London midland trains only, I guess you have lots of free time. I once looked at seeing how far north I could get with my free staff pass and worked out the journey time to Liverpool was over 4 hours!!!.

If you time it right, LIV to EUS takes as little as 3h 15m and EUS to LIV takes as little as 3h 24m. You must leave EUS no later than 16:46, but considering this is hours after the Virgin 'peak' starts, it's not bad.

 

[burns20]

I haven't yet as Lime St didn't have any forms and I don't have a computer or printer so awaiting a day off and a trip to the library

 

[eastend43]

If you time it right, LIV to EUS takes as little as 3h 15m and EUS to LIV takes as little as 3h 24m. You must leave EUS no later than 16:46, but considering this is hours after the Virgin 'peak' starts, it's not bad.

Are you sure you can use the 16:46 - I thought the evening peak restriction was 16.30?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The MSE ticket split tool: http://splitticket.moneysavingexpert.com/ suggest Rugby as a place to split to save money.

I was thinking splitting at Milton Keynes as the Chester trains stop there and going via Chester as it is sometimes easier as Birkenhead is my final destination. The best I've found so far that get round all the relevant peak restrictions is leaving on the 16:24 London Midland service from Euston and connecting onto the 17:41 at Milton Keynes. That gets me to Chester around the same time as the first off-peak direct Virgin train leaves Euston. Because of the 'stops to pick up only' restrictions on Virgin between Euston and Milton Keynes at peak times it would need to involve London Midland. I'd need to plan that in advance and even though that split would cost the same as the off peak return to London, my work would question why I am wanting two tickets.

Ideally I'd want a single ticket that I could buy from Euston on the day to somewhere up the WCML that I could use in combination with the off-peak return (that my work has paid for anyway). I know I that I can excess the off-peak ticket but for Euston to Liverpool but buying a new open single for £144.50 works out cheaper than paying the excess. I wouldn't want to pay that much though. Something nearer the £20 mark.

I should have said that my work would probably pay the 'exorbitant' anytime return fare and I'm sure that many of my colleagues would do that. I just don't feel comfortable paying so much.

 

[sarahj]

I have a Go-via staff pass, valid on Southern, South Eastern and London Midland, so I dont think I'm affected by time restrictions. I just dont know if I want to sit on a commuter train for over 3 hours.

But it looks like things have improved. when I last looked, over 6 years ago there seemed to be changes needed.


On a diff note: When you join the railway and get a staff pass, you think, yeah great. 6 years in, appart from a few trips along the coast, and the odd day out in london ,outside of southern, I've only ever used for a trip to london that went Btn - ashford. Ashford HS1 to st p, then back home on southern. (just to see what HS1 was like. Not impressed, 4 car, busy, had to stand) When your on a train working, sometimes 10+ days in a row, last thing you want to do on a day off, is go by train. Most handy things is my pass for the station car park at Brighton. I have used my priv once or twice around Newcastle when on holiday there, and used my FIP a few times.

 

[eastend43]

I'd suggest on my favourite booking engine...


On Eastcoast.co.uk select your times as normal with no "via". At this point this will give lots of trains you can't catch.

Then in the bottom left hand side click on "select a route" then tick "via London Midland trains" and "via London Midland Trains only".

Then you can select the ticket price you're wanting at the top and it'll show valid trains.

Howver likewise this does not offer the 1446 from Euston.

I cannot find a restriction code LF in the list on NRE... http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf

Thanks for the tip

Because they appear to offer the best cashback on topcashback at the moment I booked the tickets through Northern Rail's website. The fare I wanted came up right away and the booking process seemed very straightforward

 

[bb21]

Not impressed, 4 car, busy, had to stand

When did they shrink by 1/3? hock:

 

[sarahj]

Well, whatever length these javelin things are, it was not long enough!!!

 

[Eagle]

Six cars, often doubled up (although I assume yours wasn't).

 

[eastend43]

Well, whatever length these javelin things are, it was not long enough!!!

I'm trying not to go off on a completely wrong tangent...

But to sarahj, if your staff pass gets you to Liverpool, then the London Midland trains aren't too bad and Liverpool is a great city to visit for a day or two. On London Midland it never seemed like a commuter train to me and since I've presumably been going against the flow it's always been OK, Actually most of the trips I've had on London Midland have been better than some of the trips with Virgin. There's no reservations so heading out of Liverpool you often get a 4 to yourself whereas the Virgin booking system seems to crush all the advance bookings and reservations into the same carriage. And yes, I know the opinion of others that you do not need to sit on your booked seats...

 

[kieron]

One thing which I don't think has been mentioned yet is that "Any Permitted" off-peak tickets from Shotton to London have fewer restrictions than ones from Liverpool. A return from Shotton to London costs £77.30, and is valid into London after 10am, and back on any train except for the 16:10 to Bangor.

It is also valid via Liverpool on maps CL+LC (Shotton-Chester-Liverpool-Stafford-Euston), but you are not allowed to start your journey at an intermediate station on the way out.

A variation on this would be to buy a return from Upton to somewhere like Kentish Town. This costs a bit more at £79.90, but the restrictions are the same, you don't have to travel via Shotton or Chester, and starting there may be more convenient for you.

It's still expensive, but you can get out of London at a sensible time with it for less than £100. It would be a bit more complicated for your employer, though.

 

[Wirral]

One thing which I don't think has been mentioned yet is that "Any Permitted" off-peak tickets from Shotton to London have fewer restrictions than ones from Liverpool. A return from Shotton to London costs £77.30, and is valid into London after 10am, and back on any train except for the 16:10 to Bangor.

It is also valid via Liverpool on maps CL+LC (Shotton-Chester-Liverpool-Stafford-Euston), but you are not allowed to start your journey at an intermediate station on the way out.

A variation on this would be to buy a return from Upton to somewhere like Kentish Town. This costs a bit more at £79.90, but the restrictions are the same, you don't have to travel via Shotton or Chester, and starting there may be more convenient for you.

It's still expensive, but you can get out of London at a sensible time with it for less than £100. It would be a bit more complicated for your employer, though.

kieron has provided some useful tips here. I travel regularly from the Wirral to London on my own budget travelling via tickets to Shotton that take you down the Wirral anyway.

The bizarre pricing means that you can travel Friday afternoon peak time except the 4.10 that has been mentioned and be back in London shortly after 10.00 on a Monday.

What is wrong is why the Liverpool, Chester, Crewe rules are so strict with peak time being a large part of the day, up to 11.00 in the morning and from 3.00 to 7.00 in the afternoon and evening.

Peak should be restricted before say 9.30 or 10.00 and between 4 and 6, that is when business travel, the rest is profiteering and monopoly power.

A word of caution though, the guards at Euston dislike the Welsh rules and will try and put you off particularly on the Manchester trains.

Are these the most restricted peak times on the network perhaps, possibly.