Liverpool to Runcorn: Your opinions please

[RJ]

A passenger is at Liverpool Lime Street.

They hold a season ticket from Livepool South Parkway to Runcorn. They also hold an Anytime Day Single from Liverpool Lime Street to Hunts Cross.

The lines to Runcorn and Hunts Cross bifuricate at Liverpool South Parkway

Is the person permitted to travel on a non stop service from Liverpool Lime Street to Runcorn? Please justify your answers, very interested to see people's views!

 

[bb21]

Unless I have missed something obvious, is there any reason why this is not valid?

Surely there is still only one station despite having two diverging lines running through it.

The two tickets held cover the entire journey and Condition 19(c) applies.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I see no problem with it as a single from Liverpool Stns to Hunts Cross can be used for Break of journey at any point along a valid route just like a season ticket. The two would therefore fit the requirements of Condition 19 (Using two or more tickets for one journey), as they cover the entire journey and one is a season ticket and the other is not.

 

[John @ home]

The combination is valid. The "Anytime Day Single from Liverpool Lime Street to Hunts Cross." actually shows on the ticket: "STD ANYTIME DAY S From LIVERPOOL STNS To HUNTS CROSS Route ANY PERMITTED". It is Permitted via Liverpool Central or via Edge Hill.

The LIVERPOOL STNS - HUNTS CROSS ticket may be used from Liverpool Lime Street to Liverpool South Parkway. The LIVERPOOL S PWY - RUNCORN ticket may be used from Liverpool South Parkway to Runcorn.

Condition 19(c) allows these two tickets to be combined for one Liverpool Lime Street - Runcorn journey if "one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not." The Liverpool South Parkway - Runcorn season ticket has its fare set by London Midland, not "on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority", so the Condition is met.

The LIVERPOOL STNS - HUNTS CROSS ticket remains valid for travel from Liverpool South Parkway to Hunts Cross for the rest of the day.

 

[RJ]

Thank you for your insight!

The question I'm trying ask is, does Break of Journey still apply if the train doesn't actually stop at the station where the break takes place?

Also trying to establish if the SDS can be considered as a simple extension ticket for this purpose, or whether it's to be considered a route deviation that requires the train to stop where the routes diverge.

When I was manning an excess fares window, a similar situation was common whereby people with a ticket avoiding London somehow managed to end up before me. They were given a point to point ticket between the points of deviance (i.e Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction [no pendancy on platform availability please!]) or a single to the point of deviance along the line of route if they'd already been on the Underground. More often than not, trains did not stop at the station representing the point of deviance. However this was a long standing tradition and the rules were relaxed in favour of the customer.

Is there anything cast iron stating that a train does not have to stop at a station if a BoJ is taking place there?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thank you for your insight!

The question I'm trying ask is, does Break of Journey still apply if the train doesn't actually stop at the station where the break takes place?

Obviously from a literal pov, no it can't, but from the pov of seeing if your entire journey is covered by the tickets you hold, absolutely it does.

....Also trying to establish if the SDS can be considered as a simple extension ticket for this purpose, or whether it's to be considered a route deviation that requires the train to stop where the routes diverge....

Using two or more tickets for one journey should, in theory, be quite simple. In this case it is because the Liverpool-Hunts Cross tickets covers Lime Street to South Parkway and the South Parkway-Runcorn ticket covers South Parkway to Runcorn.

....When I was manning an excess fares window, a similar situation was common whereby people with a ticket avoiding London somehow managed to end up before me. They were given a point to point ticket between the points of deviance (i.e Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction [no pendancy on platform availability please!]) or a single to the point of deviance along the line of route if they'd already been on the Underground. More often than not, trains did not stop at the station representing the point of deviance. However this was a long standing tradition and the rules were relaxed in favour of the customer....

Deviation from the route should be issued as a ticket from the last place the ticket was valid for the journey, so either last place the train stopped at (Condition 19b) or, from the last point the season ticket was valid (Condition 19c).

....Is there anything cast iron stating that a train does not have to stop at a station if a BoJ is taking place there?

No, but then you wouldn't expect there to be as, generally speaking, a break of journey requires a stop at the station.

 

[LexyBoy]

The question I'm trying ask is, does Break of Journey still apply if the train doesn't actually stop at the station where the break takes place?

Is it BoJ though? The NRCoC says:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
[...]
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket [...] and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

The journey is Lime Street to Runcorn, the starting station of the SDS to one of the destinations on the season. The journey uses two tickets which together cover the entire journey. Thus it could be argued that there is no BoJ, as the journey is not being broken; the validity simply switches tickets at a point which happens not to be the destination of the SDS.

Also trying to establish if the SDS can be considered as a simple extension ticket for this purpose, or whether it's to be considered a route deviation that requires the train to stop where the routes diverge.

When I was manning an excess fares window, a similar situation was common whereby people with a ticket avoiding London somehow managed to end up before me. They were given a point to point ticket between the points of deviance (i.e Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction [no pendancy on platform availability please!]) or a single to the point of deviance along the line of route if they'd already been on the Underground. More often than not, trains did not stop at the station representing the point of deviance. However this was a long standing tradition and the rules were relaxed in favour of the customer.

In this case condition 19(b) would apply and the train would have to stop at the station(s) where validity transfers from one ticket to the other (i.e. CLJ and WIJ). Obviously a change of route excess would not have any issues in this regard; this could be why the rules were relaxed in this case (the new single sold being a proxy for an excess).

 

[RJ]

Hmm. I have scepticisms regarding the use of Condition 16 in relation to Condition 19(c) and would not be confident enough to do it in reality without documentation that had a definition that can be reasonably interpreted to permit it. How about this one.

A passenger is at Elephant and Castle.

They hold an Elephant and Castle to Bedford season ticket.

They've purchased an Anytime Return from Wolverton to Market Harborough and a return from Market Harborough to Leicester.

The only permitted route between Wolverton and Market Harborough is via Bedford.

a.) Are they permitted to travel on a fast train from St Pancras to Leicester?
b.) Are they permitted to travel on a train from St Pancras to Leicester that stops at Bedford?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

a) Yes, as their entire journey is covered and one ticket is a season ticket and the others are not.

b) Yes, as their entire journey is covered and one ticket is a season ticket and the others are not.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't understand why the passenger purchased a Lime Street-Hunts Cross single and not a single to South Parkway, unless he/she was planning to do Lime Street-Runcorn and then Runcorn-South Parkway-Hunts Cross later on.

 

[RJ]

a) Yes, as their entire journey is covered and one ticket is a season ticket and the others are not.

b) Yes, as their entire journey is covered and one ticket is a season ticket and the others are not.

I think that's a veritable interpretation of the wording, thanks.

I don't understand why the passenger purchased a Lime Street-Hunts Cross single and not a single to South Parkway, unless he/she was planning to do Lime Street-Runcorn and then Runcorn-South Parkway-Hunts Cross later on.

Me neither .

 

[34D]

In this case condition 19(b) would apply and the train would have to stop at the station(s) where validity transfers from one ticket to the other (i.e. CLJ and WIJ). Obviously a change of route excess would not have any issues in this regard; this could be why the rules were relaxed in this case (the new single sold being a proxy for an excess).

Is there a reason for selling a fresh ticket rather than a change of route excess?

Surely, given that a example basingstoke-milton keynes route not london holder will have walked past a ticket window and a guard from whom they could have purchased a clapham jct-willesden jct ticket (if this is cheaper than the excess) has forefeited the opportunity to get a cheaper option?

 

[RJ]

Is there a reason for selling a fresh ticket rather than a change of route excess?

Surely, given that a example basingstoke-milton keynes route not london holder will have walked past a ticket window and a guard from whom they could have purchased a clapham jct-willesden jct ticket (if this is cheaper than the excess) has forefeited the opportunity to get a cheaper option?

Try East Croydon to Coventry. If you ended up Victoria with a Kensington Olympia ticket and didn't fancy backtracking, it'd be cheaper to buy a new ticket to complete the journey than obtain an excess.

The BML to WCML route is rich with anomalies, including some random flows where the Kensington Olympia ticket is more expensive than the +Any Permitted! Good luck using the Kensington Olympia ticket on the Underground though.....