According to this article published on The Railway Hub https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/11283/sos-llangollen-railway-warns-its-at-risk-of-closure/ , the Llangollen Railway is at risk of shutting down:
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Llangollen Railway warns it’s at risk of closure
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wagwan my g
Member
With the current situation lots of heritage lines are at risk of possibly facing closure.
Vespa
Established Member
Can it be mothballed with minimum volunteer staff for security to reduce outgoings ?
I suspect they and most other heritage lines are all in effect mothballed, few paid staff working, mostly volunteers covering jobs but daily running costs don't just disappear, there will still be bills to pay. I read that the East Lancs Railway is similarly affected, I think they said they need £66k month just to survive even when closed so that gives you an idea of the upkeep of these railways
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How are they spending £66K a month if they have furloughed everyone but the security guard and are just paying the standing charges on bills? Do they lease some of their land?
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Council Tax.
Loan repayments.
And even while staff are furloughed they still have to pay their tax and NI
Loan repayments.
And even while staff are furloughed they still have to pay their tax and NI
Journeyman
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Just about every heritage railway is doing that, but they still have loads of expenses. People seem to think they cost a pittance to run because of volunteer labour, but sadly there's still a lot to fork out for. The railway I'm currently working for has furloughed all but two paid staff (myself included) and is looking at delaying a major investment project so the funds can tide the organisation over until it's able to reopen.
YorkshireBear
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With the news that social distancing may continue until a vaccine is found I think many many heritage railways will go under. There is only so much in donations to go around while this situation economically impacts the donators as well.
paul1609
Established Member
I think that people shouldn't panic. I personally believe that the majority of railways will survive. However theres little doubt that the heritage railway industry as a whole will have to adapt.
I agree. I think that the majority of heritage railways will survive the current crisis. That said, the Llangollen is the one I'm most worried about. There's a very real danger that will go under, simply because its finances were in a parlous state well before the COVID-19 shutdown.
I was going to check the Llangollen Railway's website to see how they're doing but it's bringing up security warnings both in Firefox and Opera browsers. That's worrying, particularly if the website is the preferred way of making donations to the current appeal.
I was going to check the Llangollen Railway's website to see how they're doing but it's bringing up security warnings both in Firefox and Opera browsers. That's worrying, particularly if the website is the preferred way of making donations to the current appeal.
gazthomas
Established Member
Assuming they have the resource to do it!
duffield
Established Member
Letsencrypt provide free certificates, and I understand you can set up an auto-renewal mechanism.
I'd consider offering my services, as I've dabbled in SSL setup and certificate renewal, but unfortunately all my expertise lies in ye olde IBM mainframes so I'd be no use!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How many preserved railways have a multi-layer structure, such as a charitable trust owning the line, buildings etc and a limited company in charge of operations? You could quite well make a failure have less consequence if the charitable trust continued charging the limited company for its access to the line, then the limited company collapses due to no income - then you just set another one up to replace it or do a "pre-pack" administration.
Looks like the security certificate has been renewed now! According to the website they've managed to raise over £11K so far:
'FULL STEAM AHEAD' APPEAL
We initially launched an Appeal in March when our services were suspended due to the impact of Covid-19. Llangollen Railway, like many other heritage railways throughout the country, are in need of co
llangollenrailway.charitycheckout.co.uk
Clearly Llangollen is in a parlous state from what I can see on the web; West Somerset looks to be in a similar if possibly more disorganised state. Both of these appear to be at significant risk of failing, if nothing else because they are starting from an apparently negative financial position, compared to some other lines. Looking around, it looks as if SVR seem to have raised enough at least to tide them over for the bulk of the summer and I suspect some of the other "premier" lines like NYMR and Ffestiniog/WHR which have a very wide supporter base, will do the same hopefully before too long. Similarly I think as someone said elsewhere the much smaller lines with few if any paid staff and much more limited overheads will probably survive as will the few "private" lines (i.e. Fawley Hill). To me those under most threat are the middle size lines with some paid staff, a reasonable amount of overheads but a more limited supporter base - which I guess includes Llangollen and WSR, also ELR,Swanage and possibly Bluebell (though I hope not) amongst others. Obviously any line closing will be a tragedy and hopefully won't happen, but I think it unlikely the whole sector will make it through without some (hopefully a minimal number) lines going to the wall.
Given the size of losses previously reported by a number of heritage railways and the sizeable fixed costs some have, it will take fund raising extraordinaire to generate the funds required to keep those lines in business. The challenge for many railways will be how to keep going next winter, if this summers takings are well below the normal level. If heritage railways are compelled to make staff redundant then one may ask how they will manage to satisfy the ORR that they are able to meet the required standards of safe operation and maintanance. The ORR already has some heritage railways under the microscope because of previous failings. Some posters have suggested that local councils will step in because of the value to the local economy. I wonder if those councils wil have funds to do this given how many are reporting the extreme challenge of meeting statutory obligations let alone anything discretionary.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A possibly controversial option may actually be to sell some of their line for development to fund the remaining part. This is how Bletchley Park has grown its visitor facilities - the actual area is shrinking, with housing and offices taking up some of the old land, but that money has gone into making what's left very good as a museum.
I suspect the Welsh government will be bounced into providing Llangollen Railway financial support. Its a major tourist attraction in a part of Wales which is now very competitive in Welsh Assembly and UK Parliamentary elections.
Lines that have links to the national network may get bailed out by the DfT. It would fit the reverse Beeching narrative the Tories like, while not costing or changing much. The could buy the land and lease it back on generous terms.
Lines that have links to the national network may get bailed out by the DfT. It would fit the reverse Beeching narrative the Tories like, while not costing or changing much. The could buy the land and lease it back on generous terms.
Spagnoletti
Member
I'm pretty sure the trackbed at Llangollen is owned by Denbighshire local authority and the railway (not sure if it is the trust or PLC) have a very long lease on peppercorn terms. One of the conditions of that lease was that the Corwen extension was completed by a certain date, with the pressure to do so having been a contributor to the current financial situation.
headshot119
Established Member
Not sure where you have got the information about the lease condition being dependent on the Corwen extension being finished, but to the best of my knowledge that's not the case at all. The financial situation is not caused by the extension either.
swanhill41
Member
How many people are/were full time paid staff?
This, from the Talyllyn Railway, is interesting:
"If we miss running over March, April and May, the revenue loss (based on last year) is £250,000 - which will impact the railway greatly. Our costs per month (with most staff on furlough) are £25,000 - so our appeal is set at £75,000 which would cover three months of costs...
Three managers (Stuart – General Manager, Lorraine – Commercial Manager and Chris – Engineering Manager) remain employed by the Railway; all other workers are off on ‘furlough’. The three of them are managing the day to day running of the admin, security, online shop and marketing of the railway."
They've actually raised, as of today, just over £50K (exactly two thirds of what they need).
"If we miss running over March, April and May, the revenue loss (based on last year) is £250,000 - which will impact the railway greatly. Our costs per month (with most staff on furlough) are £25,000 - so our appeal is set at £75,000 which would cover three months of costs...
Three managers (Stuart – General Manager, Lorraine – Commercial Manager and Chris – Engineering Manager) remain employed by the Railway; all other workers are off on ‘furlough’. The three of them are managing the day to day running of the admin, security, online shop and marketing of the railway."
They've actually raised, as of today, just over £50K (exactly two thirds of what they need).
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An additional factor is that many railways are losing out on 2 - 3 months of loco and rolling stock maintenance. I was reading up on a particular heritage line recently and noticed that 3 of its 4 operational steam locomotives will be out of boiler ticket by the end of next year. I know that two more are under overhaul on site plus one more off-site, and one of those recently had a boiler test, but that one was expected to be back in service 2 years ago before more problems were discovered.
Could a knock-on effect be that some railways won't have sufficient locomotives/stock available to run the advertised service, given that they'll be 3 months behind on maintenance?
Could a knock-on effect be that some railways won't have sufficient locomotives/stock available to run the advertised service, given that they'll be 3 months behind on maintenance?
A quick review of various heritage railways’ websites shows that most lines are, happily, getting a VERY strong response to their COVID-19 appeals. One of the few exceptions to this seems to be Llangollen, which has so far raised only £12.8K. I assume that total is exclusively on-line donations and doesn’t include things like cheques sent through the post etc. But even if, for sake of argument, we corrected that figure to £25K (to include all donations) that’s still far, far short of many similar appeals. And it’s only a fraction of the £600K the railway allegedly needs to survive.
This is the third appeal by the Llangollen in the last 7-8 months. On the previous two occasions the line’s loyal supporters stepped up to the plate but could it just be that even their patience, and wallets, are running a bit thin? Don’t get me wrong. I’d hate to see the Llangollen Railway go under. It’s a lovely line in a beautiful setting but the maths just don’t add up.
Most of these heritage railways are working on the basis that they’ll be back in business by July, ready for the peak summer season. But with social distancing measures likely to be with us for many more months, it’s quite possible that the entire 2020 operating season will now be lost. For a line like Llangollen, that could prove terminal.
This is the third appeal by the Llangollen in the last 7-8 months. On the previous two occasions the line’s loyal supporters stepped up to the plate but could it just be that even their patience, and wallets, are running a bit thin? Don’t get me wrong. I’d hate to see the Llangollen Railway go under. It’s a lovely line in a beautiful setting but the maths just don’t add up.
Most of these heritage railways are working on the basis that they’ll be back in business by July, ready for the peak summer season. But with social distancing measures likely to be with us for many more months, it’s quite possible that the entire 2020 operating season will now be lost. For a line like Llangollen, that could prove terminal.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've been round and donated to a few this morning as I got paid, which includes Llangollen. The one that seems to have got least that I noticed was the Wensleydale (only about £5K), so people who are concerned about them might want to donate there.
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