LNER compulsory reservations - what happens if you don’t have one?

[island]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

Imagine you have a flexible ticket (Anytime, Off-Peak, Rover) and you board an LNER service without a reservation. What exactly can the TM do?

You have a valid ticket for the journey, you might even have a seat so the reality is that you are not “without a ticket”.

Has anyone been thrown off LNER services (or other services with compulsory reservations for that matter) for not having a reservations? It seems there’s little that can be done to prevent you from boarding, but what about once on board?

An extremely bloody-minded staff member could report for prosecution under byelaw 19, but in all likelihood as others mention one would be far more likely to be refused at boarding controls if in place, or otherwise directed to coach C and reminded to reserve next time, or maybe removed from the train if the attitude test were failed.

 

[Mainline421]

In my experience nothing just sat in coach C and no one has ever said anything.

 

[tspaul26]

An extremely bloody-minded staff member could report for prosecution under byelaw 19, but in all likelihood as others mention one would be far more likely to be refused at boarding controls if in place, or otherwise directed to coach C and reminded to reserve next time, or maybe removed from the train if the attitude test were failed.

I’m not necessarily convinced that a prosecution under Byelaw 19 would be competent.

Byelaw 13(1) on the other hand…or potentially Byelaw 18(1) with a little creative pleading.

 

[Randomer]

Surely a section 18(1) prosecution fails in that the person concerned does have a valid ticket but not a reservation?

I'm not convinced a prosecution for 13(1) would succeed either when the title of the subsection is "Control of Premises" and a separate section "Travel and Fares" exists.

Now if somebody refused to get off the train at the next stop I could see a prosecution but I was under the impression that this would normally be a Railways Act offence if the person was actually on the train? The case law seems to support this but not a bylaw prosecution but I have real doubts that the CPS would support this with the public interest test of the charging guidelines.

 

[tspaul26]

18(1): may be possible if a ticket that is not accompanied by the appropriate reservation does not constitute a “valid ticket” (as defined).

13(1): whilst the section does have that heading, the headings are not considered as part of these byelaws for the purpose of interpretation. The provision itself appears broad enough to encompass a passenger entering a reservation holders only train without said reservation and the side-title for this particular Byelaw is:

Unauthorised access and loitering​

The main difficulty with Byelaw 19 is that a reservation compulsory train does not indicate that any seat is reserved for a specific individual nor is it reserved for holders of tickets of a specific class [of travel].

 

[TUC]

Where are you going? Hexham. Hexham isn't York so you've lied to get onto the platform.

In what way does lying about where you're going turn a ticket valid for where you are really going into being invalid?

It's great when people show TOCs up for illogical requirements and push them to their limit. It's up to the TOCs to think logically when setting the requirements in the first place.

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely a section 18(1) prosecution fails in that the person concerned does have a valid ticket but not a reservation?

I'm not convinced a prosecution for 13(1) would succeed either when the title of the subsection is "Control of Premises" and a separate section "Travel and Fares" exists.

Now if somebody refused to get off the train at the next stop I could see a prosecution but I was under the impression that this would normally be a Railways Act offence if the person was actually on the train? The case law seems to support this but not a bylaw prosecution but I have real doubts that the CPS would support this with the public interest test of the charging guidelines.

one of the reasons people are so against this, let’s say you get on a Newark Northgate heading to Lincoln. You have no reservation sir please leave at next stop.… OK.

I hope EMR are getting a larger share of the revenue split (although probably doesn’t matter now)

 

[Wallsendmag]

In what way does lying about where you're going turn a ticket valid for where you are really going into being invalid?

It's great when people show TOCs up for illogical requirements and push them to their limit. It's up to the TOCs to think logically when setting the requirements in the first place.

It's nothing to do with making the ticket invalid the question was saying you're going to Hexham when you're going to York dishonest.

 

[nedchester]

It's nothing to do with making the ticket invalid the question was saying you're going to Hexham when you're going to York dishonest.

I like to think of it as a White Lie.

 

[TUC]

When will TOCs realise that, unless they have consciously chosen to be tied to a specific train in return for s cheap Advance fare, people do not plan their lives around one particular train? They work late so and so get a later train. They stop and talk to froends and so get a later train. They're having a great day out and so get a later train.

That is flexible, messy, mornal human life. TOCs, it's your job to fit your approaches around that, not for people to put their lives in nice, neat boxes. Deal with it.

 

[Ianno87]

When will TOCs realise that, unless they have consciously chosen to be tied to a specific train in return for s cheap Advance fare, people do not plan their lives around one particular train? They work late so and so get a later train. They stop and talk to froends and so get a later train. They're having a great day out and so get a later train.

That is flexible, messy, mornal human life. TOCs, it's your job to fit your approaches around that, not for people to put their lives in nice, neat boxes. Deal with it.

They key is to make it easy to change trains if your plans change.

 

[OLJR]

I took the 0958 from Newcastle to Kimg’s Cross today. Last Wednesday LNER sent me an e-mail saying that due to a capacity change my reservation was cancelled and I should make a reservation on another train. But there was a problem - no trains were available to rebook until four in the afternoon, a six hour delay.

So I decided to chance it and turned up at the station at 0930. The ticket opened the gate no worries and when I was onboard the ticket inspector said nothing - he just scanned my e-ticket and moved on. The coaches were ABCDE, with D split between 1ST and STD, and I was meant to be in coach L. I just took an available seat in the 1ST half of D. Catering was normal.

If anyone gets a similar message saying their reservation is cancelled I would say you should be safe taking your originally booked service.

 

[Haywain]

I took the 0958 from Newcastle to Kimg’s Cross today. Last Wednesday LNER sent me an e-mail saying that due to a capacity change my reservation was cancelled and I should make a reservation on another train. But there was a problem - no trains were available to rebook until four in the afternoon, a six hour delay.

So I decided to chance it and turned up at the station at 0930. The ticket opened the gate no worries and when I was onboard the ticket inspector said nothing - he just scanned my e-ticket and moved on. The coaches were ABCDE, with D split between 1ST and STD, and I was meant to be in coach L. I just took an available seat in the 1ST half of D. Catering was normal.

If anyone gets a similar message saying their reservation is cancelled I would say you should be safe taking your originally booked service.

I would say you should be a little wary at busier times. Your reservation will have been cancelled because a 5-car train was substituted for a 9-car, and the reservations can't be transferred across. I expect that in the circumstances the 5-car train was not reserved at all.

 

[Skymonster]

I took the 0958 from Newcastle to Kimg’s Cross today. Last Wednesday LNER sent me an e-mail saying that due to a capacity change my reservation was cancelled and I should make a reservation on another train. But there was a problem - no trains were available to rebook until four in the afternoon, a six hour delay.

This illustrates the absurdity of LNER’s mandatory reservations policy and utter contempt of customers. I wonder if they’d have paid delay repay if you’d done what they asked and ended up on the train six hours later.

Had I been travelling and I would have stuck to the to the original reservation and had I been challenged or refused boarding, I’d have (1) said I hadn’t seen an email cancelling my reservation and (2) got on the train I’d originally reserved anyway - and if that resulted in a discussion with BTP somewhere up the line so be it.

You complied with LNER’s ridiculous rule, had a reservation, and should have been allowed on the train come what may - it’s not your fault LNER short formed a service. And what gives LNER the right to decide which of its customers gets their reservations cancelled, and which are allowed to travel.

 

[Haywain]

Had I been travelling and I would have stuck to the to the original reservation

You'd have been sat about 4 coaches lengths behind the train.

And what gives LNER the right to decide which of its customers gets their reservations cancelled, and which are allowed to travel.

All of the reservations for that train will have been cancelled.

 

[Skymonster]

You'd have been sat about 4 coaches lengths behind the train.

All of the reservations for that train will have been cancelled.

Point 1. I meant the train, not the seat

Point 2: If all the reservations were cancelled, and yet reservations are mandatory, then presumably LNER was expecting to run a completely empty train.


Again it illustrates the absurdity of the policy, and also suggests that with all reservations cancelled there would have been no problem accommodating walk-ups.

 

[emoaconr]

Even when byelaws are cited, I feel the link to perceived breaches are tenuous, to say the least. A policy which is undoubtedly unenforceable and relies only on the fear of the complicated ticketing system as perceived by the travelling public.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Noticed a lot with XC recently that the trains show as sold out on the app, but when I message them asking if there's any seats left, they've always reserved me a seat on the supposedly sold out trains.

 

[43094]

Only twice (in several journeys) have I witnessed the reservation being checked on the train.

At Kings Cross however is another matter…. It’s controlled there (and in some other places) if required.

As an aside, I observed the following exchange on board a while ago, at the point when it was one person only per bay of four:

RPI: Are you in your booked seat?

Passenger (staff member): No, there’s a lady round that table already, so I’ve looked at what’s reserved and selected a socially distanced (unreserved) seat here, instead.

RPI (slightly leaning over staff member to see original reservation details): You should have kicked her out.

Passenger (staff member): Errr…. No?! She’s paid full fare for a ticket and I’m fine for her not to move just for me - we’re now both sufficiently distanced, so I’ll stay here if that’s OK.

RPI: Walks off muttering under breath.

Any system needs to have some ability to be flexible where needed, or the chance of unintended consequences increases.

 

[applepie2100]

I've just tried to book an impromptu weekend away travelling from Edinburgh to London next Friday morning with LNER and there is absolutely sod all available. You can still buy the nicely expensive walk up tickets but I can imagine an argument if you tried to board a train with one of them!

Where there is a five or six hour block with nothing available despite their advertising blurb that you can make a reservation five minutes before you travel it's no wonder people get annoyed.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was caught up in last night’s disruption. I think they would have had a riot if they had enforced it. Thankfully they didn’t.

 

[greyman42]

At Kings Cross however is another matter…. It’s controlled there (and in some other places) if required.

I have never experienced any checks at Kings Cross.

 

[Ianno87]

I have never experienced any checks at Kings Cross.

Tends to be at the busiest periods only, e.g. Friday/Sunday evenings, Bank Holidays, etc.

 

[The_Train]

Noticed a lot with XC recently that the trains show as sold out on the app, but when I message them asking if there's any seats left, they've always reserved me a seat on the supposedly sold out trains.

I had the opposite situation whilst out on a rover a couple of months back. Tried to reserve a seat on the morning of travel using the XC text service but got a message back telling me that all reservations for the service I needed had gone. My whole day's plan revolved around getting this train so I got on it anyway (a 3 car 170), only to find that there were very few reservation cards out in the carriage I got on (probably 25% of seats in the carriage if I'm being generous). I queried this with XC on Twitter as at that time I was under the impression that reservations were compulsory, only to be told that was not the case it was simply advisable to obtain a reservation. They also informed me that the middle carriage of the 170s was fully unreserved and in the other carriages only a small percentage of seats were offered for reservation with the rest kept available for 'walk-up' passengers.

Oh and no-one came through to check my ticket or any sort of reservation anyway. Made me wonder though, how many people receiving a message like I got informing them of no available reservations are then finding alternative ways to travel whilst the train they would have been on rolls around carrying fresh air?

 

[Class800]

LNER are the dishonest ones for going against the principle of open returns, when these can still be sold. I won't use this nasty company again if I can.

 

[DB]

Has there been any word from LNER on whether they are going to drop all this nonsense on 19th July (assuming the government does drop the restrictions then)?

They key is to make it easy to change trains if your plans change.

That's not going to be much use on a Friday afternoon, Sunday evening, bank holiday, etc, though, is it? At those times the majority of the trains are, without restrictions, going to be loading at well above their seated capacity (real seated capacity that is, not the current joke).

 

[superalbs]

I missed my train due to all the chaos on Thursday, so I went to the ticket office to make a new reservation, as I already had a few, and they just said to 'get on the next one'. Schrodinger's reservation?

Has there been any word from LNER on whether they are going to drop all this nonsense on 19th July (assuming the government does drop the restrictions then)?

They are now saying that it's for the 'passenger experience'. Not looking good, is it?

 

[DB]

They are now saying that it's for the 'passenger experience'. Not looking good, is it?

I think letters to MPs are probably called for if they continue with it.

 

[applepie2100]

I missed my train due to all the chaos on Thursday, so I went to the ticket office to make a new reservation, as I already had a few, and they just said to 'get on the next one'. Schrodinger's reservation?


They are now saying that it's for the 'passenger experience'. Not looking good, is it?

Considering that LNER and its predecessors never seem to have cared too much for the 'passenger experience' before now it seems a very strange time to starting...

Sounds to me like they're trying to make reservation only travel one of the 'new normals' we're going to be stuck with.

 

[Ianno87]

That's not going to be much use on a Friday afternoon, Sunday evening, bank holiday, etc, though, is it? At those times the majority of the trains are, without restrictions, going to be loading at well above their seated capacity (real seated capacity that is, not the current joke).

Which is equally a problem today. I know regulars who wouldn't dream of travelling on anything other than your reserved train on a Maundy Thursday, for example.