LNER compulsory reservations - what happens if you don’t have one?

[Andrew1395]

But what would you do if you were away for the weekend, disruption strikes while you're away and you need to rebook. You go onto the simple system to change your reservation only to find the next train with available space is in two days time?

Well, I would have to look at alternatives, joyful in the knowledge that thousands were using the train despite the imposition of compulsory reservations. A product innovation that had not stopped people making leisure journeys to the point that all the inter city trains were full. Plus cancelling my original reservation was providing an opportunity for someone to travel.

For my particular journey the ticket is valid via a slower route through Nottingham to London. Altenatives are often available. I might have to use an alternative mode for part or all of the journey and claim a refund.

Plans sometimes change beyond your immediate control. Weather stops things happening, people have accidents.

The railway might be closed for a week because of an event. So compulsory reservations or not, in that circumstance no trains for anyone.

Most people can cope even if they are extremely irritated by things going wrong.

 

[superalbs]

Why not make compulsory reservations first class exclusive - if you want an absolute guarentee of no crowding and a specific reserved seat, you can buy a first class ticket. As it seems to me like compulsory reservations and the guarentee of your carriage being filled only to a certain level is a "premium" product.

If you don't want to pay the first class fare, then simply choose to travel at a time which is generally less busy to avoid crowding, or accept there is a chance that you may be travelling at a time where the train is packed full.

Extra faff for passengers travelling in First Class, that will go down very well!

 

[Shotton]

Extra faff for passengers travelling in First Class, that will go down very well!

Not extra faff - a guarantee that the product will be up to snuff.

Of course, if you have a first class ticket, and need to change travel plans where a reservation is unavailable, you would be able to travel in standard class.

 

[WAB]

Well, I would have to look at alternatives, joyful in the knowledge that thousands were using the train despite the imposition of compulsory reservations. A product innovation that had not stopped people making leisure journeys to the point that all the inter city trains were full. Plus cancelling my original reservation was providing an opportunity for someone to travel.

For my particular journey the ticket is valid via a slower route through Nottingham to London. Altenatives are often available. I might have to use an alternative mode for part or all of the journey and claim a refund.

Plans sometimes change beyond your immediate control. Weather stops things happening, people have accidents.

The railway might be closed for a week because of an event. So compulsory reservations or not, in that circumstance no trains for anyone.

Most people can cope even if they are extremely irritated by things going wrong.

Cope is not the same as being pleased with it. Come on, we are really not in a position to be driving customers off the trains at this point.

 

[nanstallon]

Where are you going? Hexham. Hexham isn't York so you've lied to get onto the platform.

Perhaps he was going to Hexham, and changed his mind.

 

[yorkie]

Cope is not the same as being pleased with it. Come on, we are really not in a position to be driving customers off the trains at this point.

The rail industry knows the Government has no choice but to increase subsidy, so there is little incentive for them to get out of the habit of driving customers off trains until they're forced.

Anti-passenger rhetoric appears to be deeply ingrained within the culture at RDG and many TOCs.

I can't see LNER's policy lasting much beyond the 19th of July though.

 

[trebor79]

I can see that, but once your open ticket costs more than £50, it is less likely to be an impulse buy,

Maybe so. But I make loads of rail journeys costing more than £50. They aren't impulse buys but I DO need the flexibility to travel when I'm ready to travel and not be forced to use a particular train, or end a meeting prematurely because I have no clue whether there will be "available" seats on a later train.
Apologists for this daft policy just refuse to consider that many people have very different journey requirements from the leisure market.

 

[DB]

Maybe so. But I make loads of rail journeys costing more than £50. They aren't impulse buys but I DO need the flexibility to travel when I'm ready to travel and not be forced to use a particular train, or end a meeting prematurely because I have no clue whether there will be "available" seats on a later train.
Apologists for this daft policy just refuse to consider that many people have very different journey requirements from the leisure market.

Indeed - and as well as meetings there are many other reasons for uncertainty. In my job I sometimes need to go to sites to resolve IT problems. Before I get there I may well have no idea how long it's going to take.

 

[Alex27]

I certainly wouldn't, but would people reserve seats on more than one train so they still have options, exacerbating the situation? Or am I being too cynical of my fellow passengers

 

[The exile]

They key is to make it easy to change trains if your plans change.

No, the key is to leave it up to passengers whether they want to be on a “ full and standing” train. For long distance services there is maybe an argument in favour of having a “ no standing” coach at a bit of a premium

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, the key is to leave it up to passengers whether they want to be on a “ full and standing” train.

The problem is how do I know the train is full and standing when I reserved on it? If you are saying I should foresake my reservation because the train is uncomfortably full, that is unreasonable.

I do support Swiss-style including of loadings (both usual and dynamic) in planners and on the PIS, though, so I can select to avoid trains expected to be very busy. Reservation levels give you an idea, but aren't quite there.

 

[trebor79]

No, the key is to leave it up to passengers whether they want to be on a “ full and standing” train. For long distance services there is maybe an argument in favour of having a “ no standing” coach at a bit of a premium

The problem is how do I know the train is full and standing when I reserved on it? If you are saying I should foresake my reservation because the train is uncomfortably full, that is unreasonable.

Why would you care if you've got a reserved seat?
How often does that actually happen on long distance LNER services for significant portions of the journey anyway?
You're saying I should forsake my planned journey and possibly have to wait several hours and thereby miss ownward connections because you think me standing in the vestibule between Grantham and Peterborough will somehow make a material difference to your journey? That's just bizarre.

And all these daft rules get waived in times of disruption anyway, which are the times that trains are more likely to be crush loaded.

 

[The exile]

The problem is how do I know the train is full and standing when I reserved on it? If you are saying I should foresake my reservation because the train is uncomfortably full, that is unreasonable.

I do support Swiss-style including of loadings (both usual and dynamic) in planners and on the PIS, though, so I can select to avoid trains expected to be very busy. Reservation levels give you an idea, but aren't quite there.

Firstly, should have made clear I'm talking about non-COVID situations, rather than the current "unusual circumstances".

If you've reserved (and nothing's gone wrong) you have a seat, so don't come into the equation - unless you choose to put yourself in it by not boarding. I appreciate that sitting in a "full and standing" coach is not the most pleasant of experiences - but it's better than being unable to leave where you are because a meeting / court hearing / whatever overran and the next train with spare capacity is tomorrow - and also why I suggested a "no standing / reservations only" coach for those who really can't bear the thought of sitting in a coach with people who are standing.

I'm referring to "turn up and go" passengers - who should be free to decide for themselves whether or not to board the train (assuming of course it is physically possible) - standing passengers already on the train can also make the decision to stay on or not - after all, other than the equivalent of "finders keepers" they probably have no greater right to be on the train than those trying to board it.

Suspect we're still not going to get round the odd occasion when particular trains / short periods of time might need to be made "reservation compulsory" - if for no other reason than to encourage people who can easily travel at another time to do so - the afternoon / evening before Bank Holiday weekends being an example, but it should never become the "norm".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you care if you've got a reserved seat?

Because it makes the journey extremely unpleasant. Hard to board. Hard to pass through the train. Hard to get to the loo. Hard to get to the buffet.

It's just nasty.

How often does that actually happen on long distance LNER services for significant portions of the journey anyway?

I don't know about LNER as I don't use it often, but it happened on every TPE service I used between the introduction of the 185s and the introduction of the new 5-car units, FWIW.

and also why I suggested a "no standing / reservations only" coach for those who really can't bear the thought of sitting in a coach with people who are standing

I have in the past tended towards the idea of stopping marking reservations and instead having a marked unreserved coach. This would allow more people to reserve because that would become an option right up to departure unless full. Perhaps you could go one further and make the unreserved coach very high capacity, e.g. 3+2 seating and lots of standing areas.

 

[The exile]

I have in the past tended towards the idea of stopping marking reservations and instead having a marked unreserved coach. This would allow more people to reserve because that would become an option right up to departure unless full. Perhaps you could go one further and make the unreserved coach very high capacity, e.g. 3+2 seating and lots of standing areas.

Having no marked reservations then makes it difficult for the family with 2 youngish children who arrive to find that, yes, there are 4 seats, but one is in Coach A, two in Coach C and the fourth in Coach F.

Yes, sitting in a full train is unpleasant (though less so than standing in one) - but less unpleasant than being stuck away from home on a wet Saturday evening in November having realised during the evening that you weren't going to make the second last train, only to find the last one "fully booked" (unlikely, I know - but possible if there's been an event [concert / match etc] further up the line). Equally - am I to be denied travel between (say) Alnmouth and Totnes on what might be the only through train of the day simply because the train is fully booked between Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having no marked reservations then makes it difficult for the family with 2 youngish children who arrive to find that, yes, there are 4 seats, but one is in Coach A, two in Coach C and the fourth in Coach F.

If making a long distance journey with a family in a non-emergency situation, it is highly prudent to make a reservation, whether they be mandatory or not, and whether they be marked or not. You could as easily be split up in an optionally-reserved train, as you're not entitled to have people move to accommodate you (though they might if you ask politely and deferentially).

If the situation is an emergency you take what you can get.

Yes, sitting in a full train is unpleasant (though less so than standing in one) - but less unpleasant than being stuck away from home on a wet Saturday evening in November having realised during the evening that you weren't going to make the second last train, only to find the last one "fully booked" (unlikely, I know - but possible if there's been an event [concert / match etc] further up the line). Equally - am I to be denied travel between (say) Alnmouth and Totnes on what might be the only through train of the day simply because the train is fully booked between Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads?

It could happen. However, people don't travel from Scotland to Cornwall on a whim, and if there is only one per day one is likely to have made a reservation well in advance.

 

[Hadders]

However, people don't travel from Scotland to Cornwall on a whim, and if there is only one per day one is likely to have made a reservation well in advance.

But they do make shorter journeys like Wakefield to Leeds, Durham to Newcastle, Doncaster to York, Retford to Newark, Grantham to Peterborough etc etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But they do make shorter journeys like Wakefield to Leeds, Durham to Newcastle, Doncaster to York, Retford to Newark, Grantham to Peterborough etc etc.

That was in response to the comment about whether someone who wanted to travel from Scotland to Cornwall would be unable to book because the train was full between two close-by stations half way along the route.

The answer for short journeys is "regional trains for regional journeys, long-distance trains for long-distance journeys", particularly around London where passenger volumes are very high. Though at the outer reaches of many IC routes such as Cornwall, enough people have usually got off before the train gets there that it is very unlikely to be a problem. The LNER Newcastle terminators are similar - except in very extreme circumstances, once the trains are back at full seating capacity, it is going to be very rare not to be able to get a walk-up reservation between say Durham and Newcastle.

Reading is a particular issue, but Reading has huge volumes of passengers compared with any other similar example. Taking non-IC passengers off LNER and Avanti south of Peterborough/MK (or perhaps just allowing reservations at the last minute for unoccupied seats but not in advance) is a far easier thing to do.

 

[Haywain]

Having no marked reservations then makes it difficult for the family with 2 youngish children who arrive to find that, yes, there are 4 seats, but one is in Coach A, two in Coach C and the fourth in Coach F.

I don’t see how having marked reservations could make this easier on a busy train. On a quiet train neither makes any difference.

 

[The exile]

That was in response to the comment about whether someone who wanted to travel from Scotland to Cornwall would be unable to book because the train was full between two close-by stations half way along the route.

The answer for short journeys is "regional trains for regional journeys, long-distance trains for long-distance journeys", particularly around London where passenger volumes are very high. Though at the outer reaches of many IC routes such as Cornwall, enough people have usually got off before the train gets there that it is very unlikely to be a problem. The LNER Newcastle terminators are similar - except in very extreme circumstances, once the trains are back at full seating capacity, it is going to be very rare not to be able to get a walk-up reservation between say Durham and Newcastle.

Reading is a particular issue, but Reading has huge volumes of passengers compared with any other similar example. Taking non-IC passengers off LNER and Avanti south of Peterborough/MK (or perhaps just allowing reservations at the last minute for unoccupied seats but not in advance) is a far easier thing to do.

Regional Trains for regional journeys etc is all very well, but it requires there to be adequate regional trains on which to make that journey. I accept that Parkway to Temple Meads was probably a poor example, as there are enough regional trains to make using XC unnecessary (although it doesn't stop the reservations system doing it). There are, however, plenty of places on our system where IC / long-distance trains form the backbone of the local service as well and where compulsory reservations could easily lead to a train carting around a large quantity of fresh air because of short distance (compulsory!) reservations which block all long distance reservations that also require that short section. The "short distance reservation" might in itself be part of a long distance journey involving change of trains. Certainly, in the past I've seen London trains leaving Bristol with entire (empty) coaches full of seat reservations between Bristol and Bath. OK - in a compulsory reservation regime they would be available thereafter, but substitute "Reading and Didcot" for "Bristol and Bath" and the seat availability on that train becomes seriously compromised.

I don’t see how having marked reservations could make this easier on a busy train. On a quiet train neither makes any difference.

Think I misinterpreted here - took it to imply the "reserved places on a train but not specific seats". Probably wrong! Though I suspect that unmarked reservations might well simply lead to a "sit anywhere" mentality, under which less dramatic versions of my scenario would be more likely

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think I misinterpreted here - took it to imply the "reserved places on a train but not specific seats". Probably wrong!

By "unmarked reservations" I meant reserving specific seats but not having displays or tickets to mark them, but instead having a marked unreserved coach. That removes a technology dependence which causes stress and conflict - if you're in that coach you need a reservation, and could obtain one even after boarding. It's the norm in most compulsory reservation countries, but Poland even uses it with optional reservations.

 

[py_megapixel]

I certainly wouldn't, but would people reserve seats on more than one train so they still have options, exacerbating the situation? Or am I being too cynical of my fellow passengers

People certainly do make reservations in that way. They did even before compulsory (or, in the case of other TOCs, strongly advised) reservations came in, so probably even more so now.

Part of the problem is that there is no convenient way to cancel them. Last month I travelled on a long journey, but because of various personal circumstances I had to change the which day I was returning on. This left unused reservations on no less than three services which, had there been some way to cancel them, could have been allocated to someone else. Instead, the train might well have carried empty seats.

I imagine if I'd gone to a ticket office they would have cancelled the reservations for me, but that was an extra trip which I didn't really have time to do.

The best solution to this - in the distant future when everyone is using eTickets or ITSO - is for the backend system to automatically cancel reservations if a new reservation is made which is incompatible with existing ones on the same ticket.

 

[The exile]

People certainly do make reservations in that way. They did even before compulsory (or, in the case of other TOCs, strongly advised) reservations came in, so probably even more so now.

Part of the problem is that there is no convenient way to cancel them. Last month I travelled on a long journey, but because of various personal circumstances I had to change the which day I was returning on. This left unused reservations on no less than three services which, had there been some way to cancel them, could have been allocated to someone else. Instead, the train might well have carried empty seats.

I imagine if I'd gone to a ticket office they would have cancelled the reservations for me, but that was an extra trip which I didn't really have time to do.

The best solution to this - in the distant future when everyone is using eTickets or ITSO - is for the backend system to automatically cancel reservations if a new reservation is made which is incompatible with existing ones on the same ticket.

Although the latter won't be of much use where you have non compulsory reservation and compulsory reservation trains on the same route and the compulsory reservation train is someone's backup option in case they miss the earlier (non compulsory reservation) but very rarely do. That was my own situation earlier in the year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best solution to this - in the distant future when everyone is using eTickets or ITSO - is for the backend system to automatically cancel reservations if a new reservation is made which is incompatible with existing ones on the same ticket.

Most likely a permanent move to CR would involve the reservation and the ticket being one and the same. That solves this issue. That applies on the likes of TGV even if you pay for a premium flexible ticket - you can change it as many times as you like at no fee, but you do have to change it.

The thing about the present LNER situation is that it was an emergency bodge, so in some ways it's hard to compare it to "doing it properly".

 

[DB]

I don't know about LNER as I don't use it often, but it happened on every TPE service I used between the introduction of the 185s and the introduction of the new 5-car units, FWIW.

That's because 3-car units were completely inadquate, and TPE knowingly made it even worse by selling reduced-price advance tickets on even the busiest rush-hour trains. The answer to the TPE issue was longer trains, which they have now eventually done, although it should have happened years earlier.

Much rarer on LNER, and tends to be at the predictable times, and in many cases for short sections of the journey where it's serving a local commuter market.

 

[35B]

But they do make shorter journeys like Wakefield to Leeds, Durham to Newcastle, Doncaster to York, Retford to Newark, Grantham to Peterborough etc etc.

And, coming from Grantham, they do those journeys because the parallel EMR service has bodged up, or because they use a season ticket and want to take advantage of the flexibility to travel as and when.

 

[Skymonster]

And, coming from Grantham, they do those journeys because the parallel EMR service has bodged up, or because they use a season ticket and want to take advantage of the flexibility to travel as and when.

I did Grantham - Stansted Airport just before the madness... LNER to Peterborough, Cross Country to Stansted... Bought an open return just a couple of days in advance as it was a business trip, reserved on LNER for the short distance up the ECML (but only reserved because the website allowed it - not because I felt I needed a reservation)... On the day, things happened and I had to get a later LNER (only one alternative possible because of timings) which still enabled me to make Stansted for the flight. If this had been in the current climate and LNER had said "sorry gov but no seat reservations left on the later train", holding a standard open ticket I know what my answer would have been: "foxtrot oscar, I'm getting on it anyway" and only it being so wedged the doors could not close or BTP intervention would have deterred me.

 

[Grumbler]

Has any consideration been given to connecting customers who have bought their ticket and made their reservation at their local station served by a different TOC but are delayed en route to the connecting point? Surely they should be prioritised on the next train, or would LNER turn them away?

 

[trebor79]

Because it makes the journey extremely unpleasant. Hard to board. Hard to pass through the train. Hard to get to the loo. Hard to get to the buffet.

It's just nasty.



I don't know about LNER as I don't use it often, but it happened on every TPE service I used between the introduction of the 185s and the introduction of the new 5-car units, FWIW.

There's no buffet on those units. And they were always crush loaded because they were inadequate for the demand. We're talking about a TOC with 9 car trains that are lightly loaded, potentially turning people away just because they haven't reserved a seat on that particular service, even if the passenger being on board doesn't breach any arbitrary capacity limit they may be working to at the moment. It's ludicrous.
Are you saying it would have been better to have no standees on the TPE trains, and for those people to be stranded for hours just so it's a little bit easier to go for a wee for part of the journey? Or should we just encourage more people to drive?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no buffet on those units. And they were always crush loaded because they were inadequate for the demand. We're talking about a TOC with 9 car trains that are lightly loaded, potentially turning people away just because they haven't reserved a seat on that particular service, even if the passenger being on board doesn't breach any arbitrary capacity limit they may be working to at the moment. It's ludicrous.
Are you saying it would have been better to have no standees on the TPE trains, and for those people to be stranded for hours just so it's a little bit easier to go for a wee for part of the journey? Or should we just encourage more people to drive?

To be fair the TPE example should never have arisen and was a rather extreme one. But yes, if the train is full, perhaps people should change their plans or mode of transport, as they would for any other mode bar car and local bus, in order that everyone might enjoy a comfortable journey.

Also, it motivates the TOC to put their capacity in the right places, because if they don't they lose income.