LNER compulsory reservations - what happens if you don’t have one?

[trebor79]

To be fair the TPE example should never have arisen and was a rather extreme one. But yes, if the train is full, perhaps people should change their plans or mode of transport, as they would for any other mode bar car and local bus, in order that everyone might enjoy a comfortable journey.

Wait a minute, what other mode of transport is there other car or local bus? Aeroplane and long distance coach maybe.
If we take your logic to it's natural conclusion, you're saying people should be barred from going onto the motorway at busy times, to reduce the risk of a traffic jam?
And those guys who need to get the train home? Tough tittie, you'll just have to camp out on the station until, well I don't know when, but until there's a train going to your destination that has less than 100% of seats occupied.

Just last week I went to London. Train in medium loaded. Train back full and standing. You're saying it would be reasonable for me to kick my heels in London for several hours, or "change my mode of transport"? To what would I change it? Get an Uber home? Hire a car? Would those be better for me and the environment than just standing until we got to Chelmsford where I got a seat? Would it have made any measurable difference to my fellow passengers?

Can't you see this policy is absurd in the real world?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wait a minute, what other mode of transport is there other car or local bus? Aeroplane and long distance coach maybe.
If we take your logic to it's natural conclusion, you're saying people should be barred from going onto the motorway at busy times, to reduce the risk of a traffic jam?

Dynamic road pricing could be used to that end (I have never understood why the M6 Toll isn't dynamically priced other than the crude overnight discount), but there isn't a definitive "full" per se.

Yes, the other examples are the other long distance modes, coach and air. Comparing short distance travel with long distance travel doesn't wash. Almost no country has compulsory reservation on regional services, and I still maintain my view that the two categories of travel are fundamentally incompatible so segregation is hugely beneficial, as practiced by almost all non UK countries.

And those guys who need to get the train home? Tough tittie, you'll just have to camp out on the station until, well I don't know when, but until there's a train going to your destination that has less than 100% of seats occupied.

I've said it many times, you are using it wrong. You book the latest time of train you are likely to need and pull it earlier if you need to and there is space.

Just last week I went to London. Train in medium loaded. Train back full and standing. You're saying it would be reasonable for me to kick my heels in London for several hours, or "change my mode of transport"? To what would I change it? Get an Uber home? Hire a car? Would those be better for me and the environment than just standing until we got to Chelmsford where I got a seat? Would it have made any measurable difference to my fellow passengers?

London to Chelmsford is a regional journey served by regional trains. I am not quite sure why it is in any way relevant to this discussion as nobody is proposing CR on regional trains and almost nowhere the world over has that.

Can't you see this policy is absurd in the real world?

Is it absurd in the countries that have had it for years? France, Spain, Italy......

 

[trebor79]

Dynamic road pricing could be used to that end (I have never understood why the M6 Toll isn't dynamically priced other than the crude overnight discount), but there isn't a definitive "full" per se.

Yes, the other examples are the other long distance modes, coach and air. Comparing short distance travel with long distance travel doesn't wash. Almost no country has compulsory reservation on regional services, and I still maintain my view that the two categories of travel are fundamentally incompatible so segregation is hugely beneficial, as practiced by almost all non UK countries.

But they aren't segregated in the UK as the intercity trains provide key connections on other journeys.
Until we arrive at that point, CR is an unneccessary and unworkable hassle.

I've said it many times, you are using it wrong. You book the latest time of train you are likely to need and pull it earlier if you need to and there is space.

And if there isn't, I should just kick my heels for a few hours?

London to Chelmsford is a regional journey served by regional trains. I am not quite sure why it is in any way relevant to this discussion as nobody is proposing CR on regional trains and almost nowhere the world over has that.

I was on a 745, which has first class and buffet and was destined for Norwich, so I think that's intercity. Once a few people got off at Chelmsford I had a seat for the rest of my journey. I didn't hear anyone complaining about standees.
It's entirely relevant because at present a train with a GA livery is fine for standees, whereas apparently a very similar train with an LNER livery can not only have no standees, it must also have empty seats and even if the requisite number of seats are empty, you still can't travel (in theory) unless you've reserved one. This is just silly and I continue to refuse to engage with the charade and travel as I require within the validity of the flexible ticket I hold.


I don't disagree that with a completely segregated network, like the TGV, compulsory reservation may be workable and perhaps even desirable. But we don't have that in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if there isn't, I should just kick my heels for a few hours?

Perhaps get food or something. That is the downside.

I was on a 745, which has first class and buffet and was destined for Norwich, so I think that's intercity. Once a few people got off at Chelmsford I had a seat for the rest of my journey. I didn't hear anyone complaining about standees.
It's entirely relevant because at present a train with a GA livery is fine for standees, whereas apparently a very similar train with an LNER livery can not only have no standees, it must also have empty seats and even if the requisite number of seats are empty, you still can't travel (in theory) unless you've reserved one. This is just silly and I continue to refuse to engage with the charade and travel as I require within the validity of the flexible ticket I hold.

GA doesn't really have any true long distance services, so I think I'd sit these under regional.

I don't disagree that with a completely segregated network, like the TGV, compulsory reservation may be workable and perhaps even desirable. But we don't have that in the UK.

Would you then agree that HS2, which will be segregated in that way, should be CR?

 

[Watershed]

I don't disagree that with a completely segregated network, like the TGV, compulsory reservation may be workable and perhaps even desirable. But we don't have that in the UK.

Yep. As good as it might be, a segregated network simply doesn't exist in this country today. Whereas LNER's compulsory reservations do exist today.

It's no use justifying LNER's policy by reference to what could or should be happening.

They have so far made no indication they intend to remove compulsory reservations from 19 July.

I suspect "social distancing" was just a convenient excuse they used to introduce it without much objection.

 

[py_megapixel]

GA doesn't really have any true long distance services, so I think I'd sit these under regional.

Liv St to Norwich used to be a proper "Inter-City" branded service before privatisation didn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liv St to Norwich used to be a proper "Inter-City" branded service before privatisation didn't it?

It did, but so was Gatwick Express.

 

[35B]

To be fair the TPE example should never have arisen and was a rather extreme one. But yes, if the train is full, perhaps people should change their plans or mode of transport, as they would for any other mode bar car and local bus, in order that everyone might enjoy a comfortable journey.

Also, it motivates the TOC to put their capacity in the right places, because if they don't they lose income.

Standing is a form of managing capacity, and my choice to stand or travel in greater comfort is part of the capacity control. Alternatively, you have to stop using IC trains for short distance runs - King's Cross-Stevenage is an example dear to my heart - which has much wider implications across the network for provision of capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Standing is a form of managing capacity, and my choice to stand or travel in greater comfort is part of the capacity control. Alternatively, you have to stop using IC trains for short distance runs - King's Cross-Stevenage is an example dear to my heart - which has much wider implications across the network for provision of capacity.

With considerably reduced commuting it should certainly be possible to stop people using LNER south of Peterborough and Avanti south of MK, thus creating that segregation. North of there there is less of a capacity issue as people will get off at the first "main" stop, so getting a reservation on spec should generally be easy enough. Move forward a bit and HS2 will have no local role at all.

Reading is rather more of an issue due to the huge volumes.

XC, well, we have to decide what it is actually for.

 

[infobleep]

Will compulsory reservations end on 19th July?

No one has explained why it needs remain on LNER but not others. There has to be an answer.

 

[Hadders]

Standing is a form of managing capacity, and my choice to stand or travel in greater comfort is part of the capacity control. Alternatively, you have to stop using IC trains for short distance runs - King's Cross-Stevenage is an example dear to my heart - which has much wider implications across the network for provision of capacity.

LNER want to have their cake and eat it. An ORCATS raid with LNER only fares between Stevenage and London and compulsory reservations.

With considerably reduced commuting it should certainly be possible to stop people using LNER south of Peterborough and Avanti south of MK

Milton Keynes possible but not Peterborough. Thameslink takes significantly longer and passengers further south will not take kindly to the trains being filled with Peterborough commuters only to see an LNER service whiz past carting fresh air around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will compulsory reservations end on 19th July?

No one has explained why it needs remain on LNER but not others. There has to be an answer.

My suspicion is that they are trialling it for DaFT and it's just being hidden behind COVID.

LNER want to have their cake and eat it. An ORCATS raid with LNER only fares between Stevenage and London and compulsory reservations.


Milton Keynes possible but not Peterborough. Thameslink takes significantly longer and passengers further south will not take kindly to the trains being filled with Peterborough commuters only to see an LNER service whiz past carting fresh air around.

If LNER are carting fresh air and Thameslink are not, then their services should be reduced in frequency, replaced with more local services satisfying the actual demand.

 

[py_megapixel]

If LNER are carting fresh air and Thameslink are not, then their services should be reduced in frequency, replaced with more local services satisfying the actual demand.

Part of the reason LNER are carting fresh are is because they're effectively turning away passengers!

My suspicion is that they are trialling it for DaFT and it's just being hidden behind COVID.

I would be surprised were that not the case.
I'm more than willing to be proven wrong though.

 

[Skymonster]

It will be interesting to see what LNER does from July 19th... With people being encouraged to return to the office a punitive mandatory reservations policy is likely to start to cause more issues among commuters and business travellers who need flexibility. Its going to be interesting to see what happens when business travellers holding flexible tickets or seasons and wanting to go north from Kings Cross on a Friday evening are denied boarding because the trains are all at their notional reservations capacity.

 

[35B]

If LNER are carting fresh air and Thameslink are not, then their services should be reduced in frequency, replaced with more local services satisfying the actual demand.

Much obviously depends on how demand rebounds, but with a material discount for being restricted to TL, Peterborough is undoubtedly an LNER flow. I see no reason why that 75 mile flow should not be treated that way when the equivalent GWR flow (Swindon) is also provided by the intercity operation, not the suburban one. And following the same logic, I presume you'd regard using LNER as a waste for York-Newcastle, and consider that flow should be diverted away?

Pre-Covid, it was usual for morning trains to be full and standing from Peterborough.

 

[_toommm_]

LNER have just replied to someone on Twitter saying there’ll still be mandatory reservations after 19th July:

https://twitter.com/britwresawayday/status/1412410830293962762?s=21

 

[mikeg]

Utterly ludicrous. What justification do they have for this now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much obviously depends on how demand rebounds, but with a material discount for being restricted to TL, Peterborough is undoubtedly an LNER flow. I see no reason why that 75 mile flow should not be treated that way when the equivalent GWR flow (Swindon) is also provided by the intercity operation, not the suburban one. And following the same logic, I presume you'd regard using LNER as a waste for York-Newcastle, and consider that flow should be diverted away?

I've mentioned that the GW is a bit odd, as indeed it is. The flow from Reading is massive, while many trains operated using 80x are little more than regional expresses (Swindon is really comparable with Northampton). On the GW, I'd probably say it's very clearly the Cornish services that are true long-distance services comparable with much of LNER, whereas the Bristol/Cardiff ones are a bit more mixed - perhaps more like TPE.

York-Newcastle is a bit like north WCML services. CR probably wouldn't be an issue because of seats freed up by people boarding/alighting further south. However, yes, there should ideally be a proper local service for local needs if there is the demand for that.

Pre-Covid, it was usual for morning trains to be full and standing from Peterborough.

Sounds very much like it'd be better served by high capacity local trains, then.

 

[infobleep]

My suspicion is that they are trialling it for DaFT and it's just being hidden behind COVID.

Maybe those who know the answer aren't allowed to say publicly onIthis matter. It couldn't even be a sensitive subject internally if there is disagreement over the measures.

For those who might not like this, I would suggest contacting your local MP, especially if they do not agree with the continuous lock downing down of people over these months. They might be favourable in taking up your case.

I've mentioned that the GW is a bit odd, as indeed it is. The flow from Reading is massive, while many trains operated using 80x are little more than regional expresses (Swindon is really comparable with Northampton). On the GW, I'd probably say it's very clearly the Cornish services that are true long-distance services comparable with much of LNER, whereas the Bristol/Cardiff ones are a bit more mixed - perhaps more like TPE.

York-Newcastle is a bit like north WCML services. CR probably wouldn't be an issue because of seats freed up by people boarding/alighting further south. However, yes, there should ideally be a proper local service for local needs if there is the demand for that.



Sounds very much like it'd be better served by high capacity local trains, then.

Then you have the issue of track capacity but that is going off topic so I don't wish to discuss further

As that isn't the case I don't think compulsory reservations should be in force.

Of course they may allow far more people to get reservations from the 19th July. So they might cart around less fresh air, just that a reservation will be needed.

 

[DB]

To be fair the TPE example should never have arisen and was a rather extreme one. But yes, if the train is full, perhaps people should change their plans or mode of transport, as they would for any other mode bar car and local bus, in order that everyone might enjoy a comfortable journey.

So what do you suggest for those who are needing to travel one or two stations for work (let's say Doncaster-York), don't have access to a car, and don't know when they will be returning (and let's say it's a Friday afternoon)?

And note that 'book the latest train you might travel on' is not an acceptable answer, as such journeys may well be needed at short notice - i.e. not even knowing until the day that there's a need to travel at all.

 

[mikeg]

So what do you suggest for those who are needing to travel one or two stations for work (let's say Doncaster-York), don't have access to a car, and don't know when they will be returning (and let's say it's a Friday afternoon)?

This. I actually work in York. I can't afford to live there (I don't think), one place I was considering moving was Doncaster. Glad I haven't moved there and won't be going there in a hurry. Feel for anyone who has to do this commute. There are other options involving alternative permitted routes but it'd certainly put me off using the train. But that's immaterial as the train is the only way to do this journey effectively, at least for those of us unable to drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what do you suggest for those who are needing to travel one or two stations for work (let's say Doncaster-York), don't have access to a car, and don't know when they will be returning (and let's say it's a Friday afternoon)?

Plan not to use LNER, but if a last minute reservation is available (as is extremely likely) take it.

 

[DB]

Plan not to use LNER, but if a last minute reservation is available (as is extremely likely) take it.

So what do you use instead? The 4-car Voyager once an hour which will probably be rammed to the point where more people can't physically get on, if it's the only non-reservation option? You don't seem too hot on providing workable solutions here for the people who will actually be affected by this ridiculous policy!

 

[Watershed]

Plan not to use LNER, but if a last minute reservation is available (as is extremely likely) take it.

Which alternative TOC do you suggest using?

Hint - there isn't one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what do you use instead? The 4-car Voyager once an hour which will probably be rammed to the point where more people can't physically get on, if it's the only non-reservation option? You don't seem too hot on providing workable solutions here for the people who will actually be affected by this ridiculous policy!

I've said multiple times now - where there is not an alternative local service these need to be provided. Long distance and regional flows are not good bedfellows anyway - they work about as well as cycles in bus lanes.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think the issue with the current compulsory reservation policy is how half-a**ed the implementation is.

An ideal system would have the following differences to the one currently in use:

• All seats would be available for use (I know that's a Covid thing not a compulsory reservation thing though)
• It would be easier to make last-minute reservations, ideally with machines at stations where you scan your ticket
• The system would automatically cancel conflicting reservations. If I make multiple reservations between the same two stations on the same ticket then the system should automatically cancel all except the latest one made
• There would be a coach or so on each train dedicated unreserved, for people who genuinely do need to make journeys at very short notice, but where people have to accept they may have to stand and cram in

Long distance and regional flows are not good bedfellows anyway - they work about as well as cycles in bus lanes.

In other words - they work excellently, for people in their cars

 

[DB]

I've said multiple times now - where there is not an alternative local service these need to be provided. IC and regional flows are not good bedfellows anyway - they work about as well as cycles in bus lanes.

Yes, but there isn't one. We are talking an actual issue which exists here and now, not a theoretical ideal situation in the future.

So do you have any suggestions?

I also think that the nature of the rail network in this country means that providing local services running over the same route as every single intercity service is not workable, and frankly a waste of capacity for a lot of the time.

 

[Watershed]

I've said multiple times now - where there is not an alternative local service these need to be provided. Long distance and regional flows are not good bedfellows anyway - they work about as well as cycles in bus lanes.

"Woulda, coulda, shoulda"!

There isn't an alternative local service. And there isn't the capacity for anything more than, say, a Doncaster-York local service (which would be utterly pointless on its own).

Until there is a decent alternative for such local journeys, it is unacceptable for the rail industry simply to abandon them by imposing "compulsory" reservations. Hence why LNER must withdraw their policy.

Of course, they're not going to. But it's a sign of the level of contempt and disconnect at the upper echelons of the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue with the current compulsory reservation policy is how half-a**ed the implementation is.

Agreed.

SNCF and FS know how to do this properly as they have had it for years, and other than the unreserved coach their system has the features you describe.

If LNER are going to maintain the policy they need to do some research and change it to bring it in line with those systems.

In other words - they work excellently, for people in their cars

 

[43096]

If LNER are carting fresh air and Thameslink are not, then their services should be reduced in frequency, replaced with more local services satisfying the actual demand.

As usual on this subject, you’ve got the wrong answer. The right answer is to go back to how it was and make LNER non-compulsory reservation.

You are just persisting in applying more and more complex conditions that make the railway harder to use rather than addressing the root problem (that compulsory reservations are a nonsense). That would of course mean admitting you’ve got it wrong.