They keep running for now, but when the new platforms at Darlington open in 2025, I believe the intention is for the service to be split at Darlington, so that services use the new platforms instead of crossing Darlington south junction twice an hour.
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LNER proposal to withdraw Stirling and Glasgow Central direct services: what do you think should happen?
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paul1609
Established Member
It doesnt matter which way round your doing it. If your destination is Glasgow coming off the ECML apart from stations that are directly served from Glasgow Central and a small area where you can walk directly from the station you are much better off changing at Edinburgh on to a high frequency service to Queen Street. The demand to Glasgows South Suburbs and the South Clyde coast doesnt justify a through service. That its survived as a 1 a day service for so long is surprising.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I know in the past Scotrail operated an Ayr - Edinburgh service, which I suspect would probably be good enough for such demand.
Irrespective it would be interesting what the main loser (Motherwell) would rather have, an hourly directly service to Edinburgh or the random service they have no which may go beyond Edinburgh. I suspect the majority would prefer the former. The 0650 does have a reasonable load to Edinburgh, but not many that continue accross Edinburgh.
paul1609
Established Member
Ive occasionally in the past spent periods working down in Dry Dock at Troon when living in Kent. For London at least its not a very attractive journey by rail its just too long. Its just much easier to get off at Paisley, jump in a taxi and then get an Easyjet or BA. Ive occasionally had to take tools and test gear up and from here in Romney Marsh its actually about the same journeytime by pick up (including a couple of breaks) as by train. I get the impression from talking to people on the Ayr to Glasgow train that theres probably not much traffic from the coast that goes beyond the Central Belt.
Failed Unit
Established Member
That wouldn't surprise me, there used to be direct buses from Ayrshire - Edinburgh, which were much cheaper and not much difference in terms of end to end time. Rail will always lose on price now, the extra subsidy the airlines have got (cutting APD) is a struggle to justify the train. Rail fares have increase of course, but the cut in APD seems to have made the gap look much bigger right now.
I do the journey a lot, it doesn't seem right flying, but rail is normally at least double the cost. (That is including the taxi to Luton Airport from Welwyn Garden City) With the length of the journey you always seem to be hit by engineering works as well so the extra stress of the airport seems justified for the significant time saving. Really bad for the enviroment, but there is only so much people can justify for time and money.
As for journeys where the train is still competative, LNER doesn't really cover these. Really it is XC that is the better operator. Glasgow - Leeds actually is quicker via Carlilse with a good connection, but not much. Sheffield - Glasgow is a nice market, but not a large on by any means. But I am not sure how many people doing York, Darlington and Newcastle - Glasgow really care who operates the direct service. If they want better facilities they will just change at Edinburgh.
Class 170101
Established Member
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- 7,955
Went over to Electric trains as part of the 1991 electrification between the ECML at Edinburgh and the WCML at Carstairs (thence to Glasgow Central). Remember Queen Street has only 'just' been wired.
snookertam
Member
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The problem with using Queen Street is not just platform lengths but also finding a path from Edinburgh.
Not so bad now off peak Mon to Fri as the service is every 30 mins, but it is back to every 15 mins on Saturdays which would likely rule out any additional services that day unless it was very early morning or later in the evening.
That might be adequate, and the sleeper has been routed in/out of Queen Street since electrification, but it likely puts off any operator from opting to divert their services there.
I think the small market for Glasgow- NE England is evident in the fact that neither LNER nor XC seem particularly interested. The better option as others have suggested is a regular Central - Motherwell - Edinburgh service, but this would be likely be along the lines of the current service which is aimed at serving Motherwell and Clydesdale rather than Glasgow. In fact I know of few people other than tourists who would go to Central to get a train to Edinburgh.
Not so bad now off peak Mon to Fri as the service is every 30 mins, but it is back to every 15 mins on Saturdays which would likely rule out any additional services that day unless it was very early morning or later in the evening.
That might be adequate, and the sleeper has been routed in/out of Queen Street since electrification, but it likely puts off any operator from opting to divert their services there.
I think the small market for Glasgow- NE England is evident in the fact that neither LNER nor XC seem particularly interested. The better option as others have suggested is a regular Central - Motherwell - Edinburgh service, but this would be likely be along the lines of the current service which is aimed at serving Motherwell and Clydesdale rather than Glasgow. In fact I know of few people other than tourists who would go to Central to get a train to Edinburgh.
The sleeper goes through the low level.
Ah ok that makes sense. How did the Kings Cross to Glasgow service operate prior to this if it operated at all?
Falcon1200
Established Member
BR ran a daily through HST between Kings Cross and Queen Street, and solved the pathing problem by making them part of the standard half-hourly Edinburgh/Glasgow service. In the Down direction that led to issues when late running occurred, of course.
I used to travel to and from Glasgow to Newcastle and the north east and always preferred direct services. A little bit more certainty time wise and I thought they were fairly decently loaded. The cuts to Crosscountry and now LNER are annoying if you are travelling from the west requiring a further change.
Whilst the idea is that the Glasgow-Edinburgh shuttle has capacity, the need to change at Edinburgh is slightly inconvenient as it is now 30 minutes service not the 15 minute shuttle, worse if you have luggage or if it comes into one of the more annoying platforms requiring use of bridges.
I still think there should be a Glasgow - North East service.
Whilst the idea is that the Glasgow-Edinburgh shuttle has capacity, the need to change at Edinburgh is slightly inconvenient as it is now 30 minutes service not the 15 minute shuttle, worse if you have luggage or if it comes into one of the more annoying platforms requiring use of bridges.
I still think there should be a Glasgow - North East service.
The Puddock
Member
Normally yes, but the lowland Glasgow portion of the Lowland sleeper (1M11) operated in and out of Queen Street High Level over the Easter weekend 2018.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
There were actually 3 London services at one point plus the Cornishman to/from Penzance from 1989 IIRC. As well as start/finish HSTs which would work to/from Edinburgh on/off Craigentinny either after arriving from London or prior to working to London.
Every 15 minutes for a couple of hours in the morning and evening peaks.
moonarrow458
Member
A lot of people on here are saying, oh its just a simple change at Edinburgh onto frequent Scotrail services to Glasgow, but as other posters have already mentioned this proposed change will make certain journeys, for example Goole or Lincoln to Glasgow to 2 changes from the present 1. And once a journey starts getting above 1 change it starts being quite unattractive, not least with the worry of delays and missed connections. Not all travellers are quite so well informed as us forumites.
Furtherthemore the value of direct services should not be underestimated. The ECML carries a lot of leisure traffic, that means families with small kids, ppl with disabilities, ppl travelling with bikes. Getting a bike or buggy on and off a train, particularly intercity units like the IETs is not easy for many ppl. And we are talking about direct services from the Northeast and east of England to Sotlands biggest city. This not like the obsession with direct London to Lowestoft/Yarmouth services. Is it perhaps operationally less convenient than simply terminating at Edinburgh, certainly, but the railway is a social necessity and should be run for the benefit of passengers.
Now in the case of the Glasgow services, to say there is limited demand based off the present service provision, or loadings is shortsighted. Likely it is the case the current services fail to meet current travel habits and rather than being scrapped ought to be retimed. By the looks of it would be possible to retime the Glasgow services as follows, subject to pathing constraints:
SOUTHBOUND WEEKDAYS:
1E09 - 0930 Edinburgh to Kings Cross is formed off of a unit from Craigentinny. This could possibly extend back to start from Glasgow at around 0820 ish which might be of more use than the present 1E06 which departs Glasgow C at 0648. Would require a corresponding positioning service from Edinburgh at around 0650 which could run in service
NORTHBOUND WEEKDAYS:
1S19 - 1330 Kings Cross to Edinburgh (arr. 1816)
1S21 - 1430 Kings Cross to Edinburgh
(arr. 1909)
Both of these services upon arrival at Edinburgh run ECS back to Newcastle and Heaton Depot as 5N19 and 5N21 respectively, so you could theoretically extend one or both of these from Edinburgh to Glasgow, and then being diagrammed to end at Heaton, you could then run them in service back to Newcastle as evening Glasgow to Newcastle services.
1S19 would be particularly useful to extend as it arrives into Edinburgh at 1816 so could form a useful capacity buster for Scotrail services during the evening peak.
There may however be reasons for why this would not be workable in practice, but if there are such issues then perhaps an LNER insider could enlighten us on those.
Furtherthemore the value of direct services should not be underestimated. The ECML carries a lot of leisure traffic, that means families with small kids, ppl with disabilities, ppl travelling with bikes. Getting a bike or buggy on and off a train, particularly intercity units like the IETs is not easy for many ppl. And we are talking about direct services from the Northeast and east of England to Sotlands biggest city. This not like the obsession with direct London to Lowestoft/Yarmouth services. Is it perhaps operationally less convenient than simply terminating at Edinburgh, certainly, but the railway is a social necessity and should be run for the benefit of passengers.
Now in the case of the Glasgow services, to say there is limited demand based off the present service provision, or loadings is shortsighted. Likely it is the case the current services fail to meet current travel habits and rather than being scrapped ought to be retimed. By the looks of it would be possible to retime the Glasgow services as follows, subject to pathing constraints:
SOUTHBOUND WEEKDAYS:
1E09 - 0930 Edinburgh to Kings Cross is formed off of a unit from Craigentinny. This could possibly extend back to start from Glasgow at around 0820 ish which might be of more use than the present 1E06 which departs Glasgow C at 0648. Would require a corresponding positioning service from Edinburgh at around 0650 which could run in service
NORTHBOUND WEEKDAYS:
1S19 - 1330 Kings Cross to Edinburgh (arr. 1816)
1S21 - 1430 Kings Cross to Edinburgh
(arr. 1909)
Both of these services upon arrival at Edinburgh run ECS back to Newcastle and Heaton Depot as 5N19 and 5N21 respectively, so you could theoretically extend one or both of these from Edinburgh to Glasgow, and then being diagrammed to end at Heaton, you could then run them in service back to Newcastle as evening Glasgow to Newcastle services.
1S19 would be particularly useful to extend as it arrives into Edinburgh at 1816 so could form a useful capacity buster for Scotrail services during the evening peak.
There may however be reasons for why this would not be workable in practice, but if there are such issues then perhaps an LNER insider could enlighten us on those.
snookertam
Member
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I know the Fort William one does, but the Glasgow Central portion of the low lander sleeper has been on one occasion been run into Queen Street due to engineering work.
Yes, which I don’t think would be tolerated now in all honesty. But I get your point.
Speed43125
Member
I used to get it occasionally for a bargain 1st Class advance Fare just for the novelty. Agree its almost never well filled though.
XC 2+7 HSTs would visit on occasion in BR days, obviously that was before the platforms were extended for the 385 Express service as well. So theoretically possible I would image if there was the will for it to foul the throat as you say.
jagardner1984
Member
- Joined
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- 677
100% this. Unfortunately the reality is that for many people - rail travel and particularly rail connections are now tolerated rather than enjoyed, with there always being the added stress of transfers as you say, invariably some delay somewhere, wondering about missed connections etc. I have previously used both CrossCountry to various locations and the LNER service to London in preference to journey planner suggestions of faster routes but with changes at various WCML locations. I don’t believe I’m unique in that preference.
I think the existing LNER service is quite well timed to get to Newcastle at a vaguely “start of day” time - 0927 and that seems by others to be identified as the primary flow.
For those suggesting this is about “redeploying to more popular routes” - I’d question what that train and crew is going to be doing pre 0645 and post 2130 that makes meaningful difference to other ECML passengers. This is about cost cutting - so let us call it what it is.
Generally I think it seems odd to be trying to find ways to reduce connectivity rather than better utilising the connectivity we have, and questioning what the barriers are to better loads - for example - there used to be fair usage of the 0748 with a “Cross Country Only” fare which shaved a little off the faster ScotRail service GLC to EDB.
There does not seem much experimentation with filling excess off peak (I’m meaning peak in terms of demand, not time) capacity in UK rail these days. I’d have thought given the DfT subsidy of much movement of air around the country (even on this flow - the 8 Car 385s can be VERY lightly loaded on the Falkirk high route off off peak), experimenting with limited Megabus style advances at £1, £5, £10 would be a fairly low risk way of scooping a little extra revenue for those with the flexibility of when to travel. Those who have the misfortune of driving the M8 will tell you there are plenty of cars making this journey, even in the quiet times. The “from £1” marketing is pretty powerful I think, however rarely those are found !
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Agreed; I've gone from Newcastle to Glasgow via Carlisle in the past two months twice, and on both journeys back, the Euston train was delayed by Carlisle and got there less than two minutes before the Newcastle train was due to leave. It's stressful enough without much luggage and when you know that it's (at least generally) a cross-platform connection, and doesn't help that Carlisle – Hexham's only roughly hourly after 18:30, with one hour-and-a-half gap.
Exactly this.
We cannot forget that the Stirling services were introduced when the unit-cost per mile of operating that service was more expensive than it was now due to the need to run HSTs, irrespective of demand. This was subsidised, and the Glasgow side of things reduced as previous East Coast franchises moved away from the semi-regular extensions to Glasgow, which effectively eradicated the incentive for commuters to not go via Waverley on ScotRail.
For those claiming the economic arguments makes Stirling or Glasgow unviable, then the goalposts have clearly shifted. And it certainly isn't anything to do with demand, usage, or the operating cost for these services somehow increasing. If it was, then the former would never have been introduced in the first place.
Cost cutting at its finest. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, they have.
When the Stirling was introduced there was a marginal case which it was hoped would generate demand and turn into a clear case.
The demand didn’t arrive. Hence no case.
paul1609
Established Member
On the same basis, does the case for the Inverness service stand up. Given the costs associated with running a one a day service I cant see that it can be anything other than a political guesture?
That I don’t know, but there’s no doubt the service is fairly well used, including for journeys from south of York to the Highlands.
From another thread recently, LNER have economised there by making it a straight lodging turn instead of interworking with an Aberdeen - saving mileage on the cushions but resulting in delays to the southbound.
I certainly find it hard to believe that anyone for a moment thought it would ever be economically viable or that it was ever the original intention.
The demand was there, and nevertheless the service was used. It's not huge demand, but demand nonetheless it was.
That doesn't mean to say however that it shouldn't exist or existed. Depends where the priorities lie. And they have clearly shifted in a way that indicates it was all about the DfT getting tight with the purse strings rather than the service being deemed a failure or unsuccessful all of a sudden.
paul1609
Established Member
OK, but given that Inverness is c 170 miles from Edinburgh surely the additional costs of maintaining route knowledge for how many crew? support costs for 1 return train a day plus the leasing cost of running a high speed bi mode unit around Northern Scotland must make for a basket case even if the train was full of London to Inverness passengers. I'd have thought it was a no brainer that youd be better off running maybe 2 or 3 trains a day to Stirling/ Perth and possibly diverting them to Dundee but certainly not running any further up the Inverness line.
Bear in mind when costing this that the one diagram effectively allows a return Aberdeen trip with a second unit, so is (and always has been) a very efficient use of one unit in Scotland, even though it is not marginal time.
I travelled on the southbound a couple of weeks ago and First was well over half full before Edinburgh with passengers for England, and full thereafter. There didn't appear to be loads of rail staff or forum members in my coach
YorkRailFan
On Moderation
LNER Scotland Service Cuts Consultation.
Please take the time to respond to the consultation to oppose proposals to reduce LNER services to/from Stirling, Falkirk Grahamston, Glasgow Central and Motherwell, and to urge LNER to withdraw the proposals.
www.rmt.org.uk
RMT has gotten involved, let's see if it goes as well as the RMT's campaign on ticket office closures.
LNER Scotland Service Cuts Consultation.
Please take the time to respond to the consultation to oppose proposals to reduce LNER services to/from Stirling, Falkirk Grahamston, Glasgow Central and Motherwell, and to urge LNER to withdraw the proposals.www.rmt.org.uk
RMT has gotten involved, let's see if it goes as well as the RMT's campaign on ticket office closures.
That is a masterpiece of confused logic