LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Haywain]

but they aren't going to be doing that - they'll likely be paying more

That is just a guess though, isn't it? And what will be relied on is whether, on average, the fare is similar rather than whether it is similar for every single individual.

 

[WelshBluebird]

That is just a guess though, isn't it? And what will be relied on is whether, on average, the fare is similar rather than whether it is similar for every single individual.

If the tickets were always likely to be cheaper than the off peak fare then they could have left it be and just introduced the new tickets. The fact they have removed the off peak fare is a clear indication that at least for some journeys they want this new ticket to be more expensive.

 

[Haywain]

If the tickets were always likely to be cheaper than the off peak fare then they could have left it be and just introduced the new tickets. The fact they have removed the off peak fare is a clear indication that at least for some journeys they want this new ticket to be more expensive.

I don't dispute that some will be paying more but there is no certainty that it will be all, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

 

[modernrail]

I don't dispute that some will be paying more but there is no certainty that it will be all, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Don’t will be guess work - rather than something you can budget? Agreed.

 

[yorksrob]

That is just a guess though, isn't it? And what will be relied on is whether, on average, the fare is similar rather than whether it is similar for every single individual.

And the passenger will be paying the same fare for a restricted ticket as what they would have paid for a relatively flexible one.

 

[modernrail]

According to LNER, about 12% of sales on the trial flows are off-peak ticket types. The biggest single influencer of purchase is price. A proportion of those off-peak tickets will be on the day sales too.

Flexibility is a factor and getting that formulation rights for the semi-flexible ticket will be key. However, in real life the rankings for the different elements of the flexibility will vary. Being able to get a different train will be very high indeed. Paying a price that is similar to what they have been used to paying for an off-peak fare will also be very high. I suspect that 'being able to change at Peterborough and then go via Cambridge , stopping off for a cup of tea, and then going into Liverpool St because its a permitted route' will be a very long way down most people's list.

So what - so it’s such a low number messing around with it and taking a valuable option away will have to close to no overall impact on revenue? OR…. Yeah - this is going have MASSIVE impact, and so it is totally worth it? The former obviously.

Plus, every single example I have given involved me working around, in a way that provided certainty of cost, the various screw ups on the railway. My cups of tea were ransom purchases because the railway was not working properly.

Has anybody on here suggested they like getting off on a whim for a cup of tea. Yeah that is a marginal sport. Personally it is not a marginal sport I want the UK to lose, because god forbid that’s where we are, forced to sit at our seat until the T&C’s say we can get off (unless you want to pay an extra £100 for that £2 cup of tea). However, most of the examples given on here are about planning life stuff, with a reasonable amount of flexibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting off for a cup of tea would be unusual, but when changing anyway popping out for food isn't at all so and is technically not allowed on Advances.

 

[A S Leib]

Splitting journeys during disruption's probably quite frequent in some circumstances, e.g. buying a ticket from Birmingham to Watford but getting off at Hemel if Avanti services are massively delayed, as well as getting off for more leisurely reasons.

 

[AdamWW]

And while we're on the subject of the majority not taking advantage of the flexibilty that current tickets offer...

While it's true that most passengers probably aren't aware of the details and may not know for example that break of journey is allowed, I think many people also get it wrong in the other way, in that they have no idea they are doing something wrong by getting off a train early with an advance ticket. They've travelled for a shorter distance than they've paid for, so why would that be wrong?

 

[thedbdiboy]

So what - so it’s such a low number messing around with it and taking a valuable option away will have to close to no overall impact on revenue? OR…. Yeah - this is going have MASSIVE impact, and so it is totally worth it? The former obviously.

Plus, every single example I have given involved me working around, in a way that provided certainty of cost, the various screw ups on the railway. My cups of tea were ransom purchases because the railway was not working properly.

Has anybody on here suggested they like getting off on a whim for a cup of tea. Yeah that is a marginal sport. Personally it is not a marginal sport I want the UK to lose, because god forbid that’s where we are, forced to sit at our seat until the T&C’s say we can get off (unless you want to pay an extra £100 for that £2 cup of tea). However, most of the examples given on here are about planning life stuff, with a reasonable amount of flexibility.

The point I was making is that it will be the views of the majority that influence the feedback rather than what you or I think. The aim will be to find a way to maximise revenue in a way that meets the requirements of as many passengers as possible. That means some benefits end up getting traded if they in practice are not as valued as others by a majority of users.

 

[AdamWW]

The aim will be to find a way to maximise revenue in a way that meets the requirements of as many passengers as possible.

I wish I could think that even that was the case.

I suspect that the aim will just be to maximise revenue.

Certainly the current policy of high fares and low occupancy on peak trains to/from London doesn't look as if it has meeting passenger requirements as a particular goal.

I would also argue that the requirements of people who have little choice about using trains should be weighted more heavily than those who have alternatives. But I suspect I am in a minority in taking this view.

I've certainly been surprised how many people here seem keen on abolishing regulated walk-up fares with guaranteed availability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's of note that the Anytime fares to Edinburgh aren't quite as ridiculous as Manchester, though. £400 return is steep, but it's £350 Euston to Manchester which is almost as much for half the distance.

 

[Hadders]

I'm not sure if anything will come of it, but I've set up a petition.

Unfortunately the petition has been rejected by Parliament. Would someone like to have another go at setting one up?

Dear Hadders, Sorry, we can’t accept the petition you supported – “Scrap the LNER fare change trial”. It calls for an action relating to a particular individual, or organisation outside of the UK Government or Parliament. We can't accept petitions which call for actions with regard to named individuals, organisations or businesses. This includes petitions relating to individual train operating companies. We could accept a petition calling on the Government to require all train operators to offer off-peak tickets. We only reject petitions that don’t meet the petition standards: https://petition.parliament.uk/help#standards Thanks, The Petitions team UK Government and Parliament

 

[yorkie]

The DfT are quite clever and devious in a way, by getting LNER to act as a proxy, they are trying to have their cake and eat it.

Benefits to this approach include ensuring David Horne and LNER get nearly all the flak; I doubt they specifically thought of thwarting petitions, but it all fits in with their plan of defecting accountability.

 

[GoneSouth]

Getting off for a cup of tea would be unusual, but when changing anyway popping out for food isn't at all so and is technically not allowed on Advances.

Huh? If I have an advance with a 50 minute wait for a change of train then I can’t pass the barrier for a drink? That’s bloody crackers!

Oh, hang on, if I pay the extra 100 quid for the anytime then I can… !

I just don’t know whether to laugh or cry!

I think it's of note that the Anytime fares to Edinburgh aren't quite as ridiculous as Manchester, though. £400 return is steep, but it's £350 Euston to Manchester which is almost as much for half the distance.

That’s still 3 times what you could pay for a flight, and it takes longer. I know which I’d do, especially as you’re paying much much more for a much much less comfortable journey these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Huh? If I have an advance with a 50 minute wait for a change of train then I can’t pass the barrier for a drink? That’s bloody crackers!

Using the traditional definition you can, but you can't go across the road to McD's. It's downright silly.

I get why they don't want starting/stopping short, but for Advances the rule would just make sense to be "you must use all booked trains in full". What you do in a gap between them is moot.

If the future is Advances for everything, this really needs some thought.

 

[D6700]

Well, it didn't take long...

 

[Bletchleyite]

£30 fare increase. Nice.

We of course knew as much.

 

[800Travel]

Well, it didn't take long...

I think I've massively misinterpreted these changes. I'd thought off peak and super off peak were going, 70 minute flex was coming in, and advance and anytime were remaining. Seems they've now scrapped anytime too and replaced it with effectively 2 day anytime? So there is no option for 1 day of validity - only 1 service, 70 mins either side, or 2 days of validity?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I've massively misinterpreted these changes. I'd thought off peak and super off peak were going, 70 minute flex was coming in, and advance and anytime were remaining. Seems they've now scrapped anytime too and replaced it with effectively 2 day anytime? So there is no option for 1 day of validity - only 1 service, 70 mins either side, or 2 days of validity?

Anytime Singles have always (since the simplification a few years back) been valid for two days.

Curiously Lumo only offer an Anytime Day Single, for which LNER can't be bothered (impartiality, anyone?) entering a description.

 

[sheff1]

£30 fare increase. Nice.

We of course knew as much.

And for a less flexible product.

You say "we" knew, but a number on this thread claimed otherwise and proclaimed the change to a positive one for passengers.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I think it's of note that the Anytime fares to Edinburgh aren't quite as ridiculous as Manchester, though. £400 return is steep, but it's £350 Euston to Manchester which is almost as much for half the distance.

That’s still 3 times what you could pay for a flight, and it takes longer. I know which I’d do, especially as you’re paying much much more for a much much less comfortable journey these days.

You're not making a like for like comparison though - you're comparing prices for fixed flights, bought ahead of time, to totally flexible Anytime tickets available for purchase right up to the moment of departure.

 

[D6700]

£30 fare increase. Nice.

We of course knew as much.

Indeed, we did.

Compared with the current fixed price flexible ticket for travel on any of these trains, most of these are a £34.70 (40%) increase in price, whilst the 11:00 on the Friday sees a £46.30 (53%) increase - for a substantially inferior product...

 

[KGX]

Well, it didn't take long...

£19.90 with Lumo or £101.70 with LNER…erm okay….
Can't see how anyone will be purchasing LNER until Lumo is sold out. Not with this sort of price gap.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think it's of note that the Anytime fares to Edinburgh aren't quite as ridiculous as Manchester, though. £400 return is steep, but it's £350 Euston to Manchester which is almost as much for half the distance.

The vast majority of the public will not even contemplate the anytime fare. I used to work at NRES. When I quoted the peak fare to Manchester the caller invariably laughed and said forget it.

And for a less flexible product.

You say "we" knew, but a number on this thread claimed otherwise and proclaimed the change to a positive one for passengers.

Easter will be worth watching.

 

[Krokodil]

and it's enough time for the Government to change!

Unfortunately it doesn't matter who you vot for, the government always gets in. Ministers set policy "we want simpler fares" (I can't see Labour having a different approach), the civil serpents who implement it in this half-arsed way won't be changing.

£30 fare increase. Nice.

We of course knew as much.

Though your prediction that they'd hold back on hiking prices and do it quietly later was wide of the mark, they've gone straight in there.

 

[GoneSouth]

You're not making a like for like comparison though - you're comparing prices for fixed flights, bought ahead of time, to totally flexible Anytime tickets available for purchase right up to the moment of departure.

Which will be the only option available once the advances run out so it will be a valid scenario.

If you’re about to say advances will be available to everyone to the point of departure, then you may as well just scrap the anytime fare, we all pay for advances just as we’re about to board the train, everybody happy, cheap and can purchase whenever you like. Flexible. This just will not happen.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Well, it didn't take long...

So the 1130 and 1200 are £80 ,still less than a SSS

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the 1130 and 1200 are £80 ,still less than a SSS

And that makes the others OK because?

Clearly only some are going up, but they are the more popular ones.

 

[MTR380A]

How about an even simpler system in which the fare of a train service is always fixed and pre-announced, dependent only on the stations and departure time? For example, 08:00 costs £200, 08:30 costs £180 ... 10:00 £100 etc., and the tickets can be changed by paying the difference. The total number of passengers is quite predictable. Having different fares at different time, but not the time of booking, would already achieve some kind of demand management.