LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Hadders]

While some of those are niche, I'd think "Advance out, flexible back" to be decidedly less than niche. It's quite possible for someone to know their outward time but not their return (usually that way round). It was the whole basis of those Virgin Saver Half tickets which were sold only with a ticket going the other way.

I also don't think peak one way, off peak the other is at all niche. Someone going into the London office but for a social/a few pints afterwards is doing that.

I’ll give you that one! But the idea of the population at large taking the train one way and coach the other is fanciful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ll give you that one! But the idea of the population at large taking the train one way and coach the other is fanciful.

I agree with that. With Edinburgh (yay, on topic!) flying one way and train the other isn't going to be entirely out of the question for some, though, either because of price or because of timings. Or the Sleeper one way, which can be done on a return ticket as a supplement but it's really easier to book separately.

 

[Kite159]

While some of those are niche, I'd think "Advance out, flexible back" to be decidedly less than niche. It's quite possible for someone to know their outward time but not their return (usually that way round). It was the whole basis of those Virgin Saver Half tickets which were sold only with a ticket going the other way.

Agreed, useful for football fans attending a cup game which could run into extra time/penalties. Or even people out for a walk, they know what time to start but not necessarily what time they will end. Or even a family heading to London for a day trip.

Likewise peak one way, off-peak back isn't that niche, especially if you live on a route with an evening peak.

 

[Typhoon]

I’ll give you that one! But the idea of the population at large taking the train one way and coach the other is fanciful.

For a start there are an awful lot of places that coaches don't serve.

I also don't think peak one way, off peak the other is at all niche. Someone going into the London office but for a social/a few pints afterwards is doing that.

Won't many have a season ticket?

As far as I can tell most casual rail users catch 'the train'. There are routes where there is a choice of operators but much of the time there is just the one (for a particular destination). I'm pretty sure that you will find travellers who are likely to think 'High Speed' or 'HS1' is different from SouthEastern but Thameslink isn't in that there are announcements about needing to have tickets valid on HS1, never any announcements about having tickets valid on Thameslink. There is a journey that I am planning to undertake soon where single leg pricing would be useful but I wouldn't be surprised if I am the only person on the train who does so. By and large people travel out and come back, using just two stations. They can cope with peak (including evening peak) but most of the options given in #1738 might benefit members of the Forum but will pass the Great British Public by. Ticket Office staff had better be prepared for long queues and frustration as they try to explain the various options, with travellers ending up paying inflated prices as a result. Good for the industry, but only in the short term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Won't many have a season ticket?

Not these days. On many routes if you're a "Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday"er even a flexi season is poor value if you have any sort of Railcard.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Re: Equality Impact Assessment for the fares trial:

DfT have now responded to one of the FOI requests asking for the Equality Impact Assessment for the fares trial. LNER responded to my (separate) FOI to let me know.

Although DfT have confirmed an assessment did take place, they are refusing to release it under the 'Formulation of Government Policy' exemption.

The full response is in the PDF attached to the link above, and states:

This information is being withheld under the exemption at section 35(1)(a) (Formulation of government policy) (the full text of the exemption is attached at Annex A) of the FOI Act 2000. As section 35(1)(a) is a qualified exemption, we are required to balance the public interest in disclosing the information against that for withholding it. Annex A to this letter also details why, on balance, the public interest test favours withholding the information

Also, they give their reasons for not disclosing as:

- Release of the Equality Analysis prior to completion of the trial could prejudice the outcome of the trial. This is significant since the result of the trial will shape future policy. A full evaluation of the trial is intended to be published in due course.
- While the Department confirms it produced an Equality Impact Assessment for London North Eastern Railway’s ‘Simpler Fares’ trial and considers to have conscientiously taken into account how the trial affects people with protected characteristics, the analysis pertains to policy under development. The analysis is also a live document which will be updated as the trial unfolds.
- Good government depends on good decision making and this needs to be based on the best advice available and a full consideration of all the options without fear of premature disclosure. Department officials would be reluctant to provide free and frank advice and their views if they felt that this information would be routinely placed into the public domain ahead of any final decisions and announcements.
- Train operating companies would be reluctant to provide their free and frank advice and views which have been reflected in the Equality Impact Assessment in future confidential consultations if they felt that this information would be routinely placed into the public domain ahead of any final decisions and announcements

This seems to blow away any pretence that this trial was something driven by LNER and instead was under orders from the DfT, with the intention of using it to form future government policy.

As it's not my own FOI they responded, to, I can't appeal the decision.

 

[yorksrob]

Re: Equality Impact Assessment for the fares trial:

DfT have now responded to one of the FOI requests asking for the Equality Impact Assessment for the fares trial. LNER responded to my (separate) FOI to let me know.

Although DfT have confirmed an assessment did take place, they are refusing to release it under the 'Formulation of Government Policy' exemption.

The full response is in the PDF attached to the link above, and states:


Also, they give their reasons for not disclosing as:



This seems to blow away any pretence that this trial was something driven by LNER and instead was under orders from the DfT, with the intention of using it to form future government policy.

As it's not my own FOI they responded, to, I can't appeal the decision.

Well, at least this removes any element of doubt (as if there ever was one) that this government has been behind this all along.

I look forward to the Minister coming out with some sort of tale that this is an industry derived initiative.

 

[Mainline421]

Well, at least this removes any element of doubt (as if there ever was one) that this government has been behind this all along.

I look forward to the Minister coming out with some sort of tale that this is an industry derived initiative.

How so? Credible sources have all pointed to it originating from within LNER. Obviously the DfT would be involved in any decision making but I see nothing in there suggesting they are the driving force

 

[yorksrob]

How so? Credible sources have all pointed to it originating from within LNER. Obviously the DfT would be involved in any decision making but I see nothing in there suggesting they are the driving force

Government wouldn't have done an equality impact assessment unless it was for one of its policies/schemes or something it had endorsed.

 

[paul1609]

Surely LNER is a brand operated by DFT OLR Trains Ltd. It is the government and all it's employees are Government Employees and have been ever since the last franchise handed back the keys?

 

[yorksrob]

Surely LNER is a brand operated by DFT OLR Trains Ltd. It is the government and all it's employees are Government Employees and have been ever since the last franchise handed back the keys?

Exactly - down to their anti-passenger schemes.

 

[Mainline421]

something it had endorsed.

I don't think anyone disputed that, it involved the removal of regulated fares. But the idea came from within the TOC.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Ironically, they’re now using all the ideas they couldn’t under privatisation!

 

[GoneSouth]

Ironically, they’re now using all the ideas they couldn’t under privatisation!

Yes, that is not just ironic, it’s very worrying. We can’t get rid of this government quickly enough. (Having said that I haven’t heard many positive rail stories from across the house yet. All very depressing

 

[paul1609]

Exactly - down to their anti-passenger schemes.

But as a taxpayer who rarely uses LNER not necessarily an anti taxpayer scheme.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think anyone disputed that, it involved the removal of regulated fares. But the idea came from within the TOC.

Well, I'm not convinced.

But as a taxpayer who rarely uses LNER not necessarily an anti taxpayer scheme.

As a farepayer you presumably use your local TOC? Imagine how terrible the South Eastern service would be without off-peak.

 

[paul1609]

As a farepayer you presumably use your local TOC? Imagine how terrible the South Eastern service would be without off-peak.

As a country boy rail heading is a necessity for trips to London and beyond, Southeastern have long since priced me off their London services with extortionate car parking and fares. I normally drive to Tonbridge where there's more reasonably priced private car parking and a better train service. Ironically for longer distance journeys I'm normally on an intercity plus connections advance. The appalling reliability north of London and the hourly Marshlink service invariably mean that thanks to delay repay the journey is free.

 

[yorksrob]

As a country boy rail heading is a necessity for trips to London and beyond, Southeastern have long since priced me off their London services with extortionate car parking and fares. I normally drive to Tonbridge where there's more reasonably priced private car parking and a better train service. Ironically for longer distance journeys I'm normally on an intercity plus connections advance. The appalling reliability north of London and the hourly Marshlink service invariably mean that thanks to delay repay the journey is free.

Which is precisely why off-peak (not to mention the Network Railcard) are so important in the area.

 

[AdamWW]

But as a taxpayer who rarely uses LNER not necessarily an anti taxpayer scheme.

I think it's important to bear in mind that this thread is not really about LNER making life unpleasant for people making two specific journeys.

It's about the serious possibility that in a few years the only way for anyone to be able to travel round the UK with any real flexibility will either be to have a car or be extremely well off.

Now you could argue that you have to be reasonably well off at present to use off peak tickets for long distance services and there are better ways of using taxpayers' money and maybe you'd be right.

But it's not very pleasant for those who can't drive or indeed have chosen for whatever reasons to live their lives without a car, never mind that fact that pushing more people into car ownership will have its downsides.

This seems to blow away any pretence that this trial was something driven by LNER and instead was under orders from the DfT, with the intention of using it to form future government policy.

I wonder if someone can find out how they've determined the validity of trialling the removal of flexible tickets for a route which for various reasons sees most people on advances, then justifying the results of the "trial" to roll this nationally onto routes with very different characteristics?

 

[BRX]

I think it's important to bear in mind that this thread is not really about LNER making life unpleasant for people making two specific journeys.

It's about the serious possibility that in a few years the only way for anyone to be able to travel round the UK with any real flexibility will either be to have a car or be extremely well off.

Now you could argue that you have to be reasonably well off at present to use off peak tickets for long distance services and there are better ways of using taxpayers' money and maybe you'd be right.

But it's not very pleasant for those who can't drive or indeed have chosen for whatever reasons to live their lives without a car, never mind that fact that pushing more people into car ownership will have its downsides.

This exactly.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I wonder if someone can find out how they've determined the validity of trialling the removal of flexible tickets for a route which for various reasons sees most people on advances, then justifying the results of the "trial" to roll this nationally onto routes with very different characteristics?

I suspect the desired end state is likely to be a move to PAYG for urban and suburban services with APOD and Semi-Flex for longer distance, meaning anyone wanting an overnight Break of Journey will be required to purchase multiple tickets.

 

[Starmill]

Just to clarify, it is possible when using some websites. I was travelling with such a ticket when I made my previous post and am also doing so right now. I booked on a site that uses the old "Mixing Deck", where it is possible to select a fare without picking a train from the list of highlighted valid itineraries. I bought the out and back single leg tickets as one return journey and didn't have a reservation in either direction.

With LNER's approach, they may well see me as a bad man - not conforming with how they expect their customers to behave! I also changed my plan to travel back by 75 minutes - which is more than they consider reasonable with this trial!

Mixing deck hasn't been public-facing for a very long time unfortunately, so only enthusiasts and staff will know about it. In other words almost nobody!

I'd think "Advance out, flexible back" to be decidedly less than niche. It's quite possible for someone to know their outward time but not their return (usually that way round). It was the whole basis of those Virgin Saver Half tickets which were sold only with a ticket going the other way.

LNER already had this option though for all flows. It was ticket type SSH. They abolished this option when they sneakily added an extra 4.5% to prices...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the desired end state is likely to be a move to PAYG for urban and suburban services with APOD and Semi-Flex for longer distance, meaning anyone wanting an overnight Break of Journey will be required to purchase multiple tickets.

Which isn't necessarily that much of a problem given that it's often cheaper!

The issue is primarily the levels to which fares can rise, and secondarily the admin fee (and loss of credit if changing to a cheaper train), plus the ridiculous policy of commencing criminal action against people (or extorting settlements) who take a slightly shorter journey than that booked. The Advance fare product is designed to be cheap. If it's to become the main fare, it needs to become a little friendlier.

 

[Starmill]

Which isn't necessarily that much of a problem given that it's often cheaper!

The issue is primarily the levels to which fares can rise, and secondarily the admin fee (and loss of credit if changing to a cheaper train), plus the ridiculous policy of commencing criminal action against people (or extorting settlements) who take a slightly shorter journey than that booked. The Advance fare product is designed to be cheap. If it's to become the main fare, it needs to become a little friendlier.

Of course all of these are "software" issues which could be wiped away in a week with a rewrite of the Conditions. Not like the actual "hardware" problems the industry faces with its infrastructure, which unavoidably take years and vast physical resources and labour to actually fix. And yet...

 

[paul1609]

Which isn't necessarily that much of a problem given that it's often cheaper!

The issue is primarily the levels to which fares can rise, and secondarily the admin fee (and loss of credit if changing to a cheaper train), plus the ridiculous policy of commencing criminal action against people (or extorting settlements) who take a slightly shorter journey than that booked. The Advance fare product is designed to be cheap. If it's to become the main fare, it needs to become a little friendlier.

The fees for flexability are a common feature throughout the travel and accomodation market though in my experience.
The likes of premier inn and booking.com youll be most likely be looking at a premium of the best part of a tenner for the ability to reschedule and more than that for a refundable booking. The airline industry even for domestic flights that equate to LNERs services probably more. Why should long distance rail travel a lot of which wouldnt exist anymore without huge taxpayer subsidy be any different?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The likes of premier inn and booking.com youll be most likely be looking at a premium of the best part of a tenner for the ability to reschedule

You'd be wrong. PI charge no change fee, just the price difference and even refund the difference if you change to a cheaper date.

Why shouldn't rail? Because my car doesn't. The car is the primary competitor to rail.

 

[AdamWW]

The fees for flexability are a common feature throughout the travel and accomodation market though in my experience.
The likes of premier inn and booking.com youll be most likely be looking at a premium of the best part of a tenner for the ability to reschedule and more than that for a refundable booking. The airline industry even for domestic flights that equate to LNERs services probably more. Why should long distance rail travel a lot of which wouldnt exist anymore without huge taxpayer subsidy be any different?

Because in return for the subsidy we have a country in which those who don't or can't drive get to travel without having to plan their lives in advance?

It's all very well saying that airlines do it so trains should as well but that's not much use to people who use the train not the plane precisely because of that flexibility.

 

[Starmill]

The fees for flexability are a common feature throughout the travel and accomodation market though in my experience.
The likes of premier inn and booking.com youll be most likely be looking at a premium of the best part of a tenner for the ability to reschedule and more than that for a refundable booking. The airline industry even for domestic flights that equate to LNERs services probably more. Why should long distance rail travel a lot of which wouldnt exist anymore without huge taxpayer subsidy be any different?

This is just nonsense. So many properties on booking.com only offer rates with free cancellation.

Because in return for the subsidy we have a country in which those who don't or can't drive get to travel without having to plan their lives in advance?

It's all very well saying that airlines do it so trains should as well but that's not much use to people who use the train not the plane precisely because of that flexibility.

Indeed. For the most part, buses and trains should and do receive public funding directly. For the most part, air travel shouldn't and doesn't.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone have anything to add regarding the pilot to abolish Off Peak tickets?

We would welcome any spin off discussions, including hotels and other matters, being posted in threads in the relevant forum sections; if anyone would like to link to any such threads from here, feel free to do so.

 

[yorksrob]

The fees for flexability are a common feature throughout the travel and accomodation market though in my experience.
The likes of premier inn and booking.com youll be most likely be looking at a premium of the best part of a tenner for the ability to reschedule and more than that for a refundable booking. The airline industry even for domestic flights that equate to LNERs services probably more. Why should long distance rail travel a lot of which wouldnt exist anymore without huge taxpayer subsidy be any different?

The rail industry isn't any different in that respect.

Advanced purchase is generally cheaper than the off peak fare, in case you hadn't noticed.