LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Bletchleyite]

There are quite a few where they don't, but I'm not about to name them here. It's fair to say the vast majority of XC-set SVRs have that restriction, but it's not universal by any stretch of the imagination. Many of their most popular flows are also not priced by them (e.g. journeys within the West Midlands or around Yorkshire) so the restrictions are necessarily different.

That's fair. Perhaps "near-standardised" is a better way of putting it.

However what XC have actually done is a bit moot, it was just an example. If LNER wanted to make Super Off Peak simple they could just put very simple restrictions on it - "between 0930 and 1600, then from 1900 until close of service" is very easy to remember. Rather than the mess 9D actually contains (notably it *does* contain "not before 0930" for XC!)

So (and this is the real point) it's false of LNER to say that Super Off Peak is necessarily complicated.

 

[megabusser]

I got a reply from my local MP (Edinburgh North, SNP) who shares my concerns and pointed me towards it being raised in Parliament here - https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...ribution-DE2EB706-C575-45A8-A0A6-DD47396B2FFF

The response is just classic politics, sadly, attacking the questioner rather than addressing the issue.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If LNER wanted to make Super Off Peak simple they could just put very simple restrictions on it - "between 0930 and 1600, then from 1900 until close of service" is very easy to remember. Rather than the mess 9D actually contains (notably it *does* contain "not before 0930"

Not quite so easy, iso imagine the 1555 from say Newcastle, What happens when the train arrives at Durham at 1605 is the SSS still valid is the SSS valid from Durham ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite so easy, iso imagine the 1555 from say Newcastle, What happens when the train arrives at Durham at 1605 is the SSS still valid is the SSS valid from Durham ?

No. Simplicity does create anomalies but it is simple.

 

[BRX]

Confusion about the validity of off-peak tickets could be dealt with at the information end of the process, if there were a coordinated industry wide effort.

That is, on timetables, journey planners, information screens, have a universally recognisable indicator for every departure, that shows whether or not it's a "peak" service.

Part of what's confusing at the moment is that the burden of interpreting the restrictions is put on the passenger...you have to look up a code and then figure out the complicated rules.

If it were the case that on journey planners and station info screens, the departure time had, say, a "P" next to it, and that meant it was peak, then it would be a very quick and clear process to understand that your off peak ticket is not valid.

With this 70min thing the burden of interpretation is still put on the passenger. You have to look up the times and do the calculations of how many minutes there are between them.

 

[AdamWW]

Confusion about the validity of off-peak tickets could be dealt with at the information end of the process, if there were a coordinated industry wide effort.

That is, on timetables, journey planners, information screens, have a universally recognisable indicator for every departure, that shows whether or not it's a "peak" service.

Part of what's confusing at the moment is that the burden of interpreting the restrictions is put on the passenger...you have to look up a code and then figure out the complicated rules.

If it were the case that on journey planners and station info screens, the departure time had, say, a "P" next to it, and that meant it was peak, then it would be a very quick and clear process to understand that your off peak ticket is not valid.

With this 70min thing the burden of interpretation is still put on the passenger. You have to look up the times and do the calculations of how many minutes there are between them.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that because there is no such thing as a peak train per se - it depends on the ticket held. So it is confusing (for passengers and, sadly, sometimes staff).

But given that most people these days seem to travel by showing a ticket on a phone, it would be very easy to provide an app where you typed in your proposed train and it told you whether it was valid or not.
(It might not cope with break of journey gracefully, but if that's a problem just pretend it isn't allowed - after all the new simpler tickets don't allow it)
In principle it could even let you pay an excess to travel on a more expensive train, though there are probably practical reasons why this would be hard to implement.

With the 70 minute ticket presumably their app allowing you to change reservations will also let you know if the train you're thinking of is valid or not.

 

[BRX]

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that because there is no such thing as a peak train per se - it depends on the ticket held. So it is confusing (for passengers and, sadly, sometimes staff).

I guess I am imagining there would be a "simplification" of those rules, such that it is determined by train rather than ticket. That would seem logical if one of the aims is to encourage use of quieter services.

But perhaps I underestimate the scale/implications of such a change.

 

[kkong]

We do actually, although could be cherry picked to an extent and still doesn't look good for LNER either way. 35% of people said the supplement provides less flexibility than they need, and it wasn't even presented as a replacement for Off-Peak tickets https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/simpler_fares#incoming-2552001

Interesting document - thanks for highlighting it.

Some initial highlights for me:

• The research was carried out just under 3 years ago ("...the ninth activity on the new Viewpoint community panel (the tenth of the 2020-21 year" and "The Great British Railways announcement on the 20th May").
• "The membership profile [of the panel] is not representative of all LNER customer groups..."
• £10 is the optimum price for the supplement to maximize revenue (in practice it seems to have been set to >= £20).
• "Of the scenarios presented, the least acceptable to both customers and non-customers is not having alternative options due to the product being subject to availability".
• "Generally, customers expect the cost of the add-on to correlate with the price of their ticket (i.e. the cheaper their ticket, the cheaper the add on)."
• The majority think the option to travel one hour earlier or later gives enough flexibility and a higher proportion think the option should be available up to 2 hours before original train departure time

 

[wilbers]

I wonder if after a few months/a year they will experiment with changing the flex to ticket to have 130 minutes flex?

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting document - thanks for highlighting it.

Some initial highlights for me:

• The research was carried out just under 3 years ago ("...the ninth activity on the new Viewpoint community panel (the tenth of the 2020-21 year" and "The Great British Railways announcement on the 20th May").
• "The membership profile [of the panel] is not representative of all LNER customer groups..."
• £10 is the optimum price for the supplement to maximize revenue (in practice it seems to have been set to >= £20).
• "Of the scenarios presented, the least acceptable to both customers and non-customers is not having alternative options due to the product being subject to availability".
• "Generally, customers expect the cost of the add-on to correlate with the price of their ticket (i.e. the cheaper their ticket, the cheaper the add on)."
• The majority think the option to travel one hour earlier or later gives enough flexibility and a higher proportion think the option should be available up to 2 hours before original train departure time

Fascinating.

And the "majority" being just over 50%, if I recall...

 

[Haywain]

And the "majority" being just over 50%, if I recall...

You’re not trying to argue that over 50% isn’t a majority, are you?

 

[kkong]

Fascinating.

And the "majority" being just over 50%, if I recall...

"The majority" is based on the Question QF3.
"A higher proportion" is based on Question QF4.

QF3: "Do you feel one hour earlier or later gives you more flexibility than you would need, not enough flexibility, or is it about right?"

QF4: "Using the 'add on', up to what amount of time do you think you should be allowed to decide to switch your train to one departing up to 1 hour earlier or later?"

QF4 is slightly oddly worded: what it is actually asking is the time window you would like before the original departure time in which you can decide to choose a new train +/-1 hour.

What has actually been implemented has no such window; you can simply board a train +/- 70 minutes without taking any action.

Also interesting to see that the "Don't Knows" for QF3 (13% / 17% for customers/non-customers respectively) are higher than "More flexibility than I would need" (8% / 13%).

Yet the "More flexibility" + "About right" have been added together to give the "majority" answer.

You’re not trying to argue that over 50% isn’t a majority, are you?

I think he was perhaps suggesting that "a higher proportion" is larger than "a majority".

But as in my follow-up post, these results mentioned in the Ipsos MORI slide title are actually answers to two different questions.

 

[AdamWW]

You’re not trying to argue that over 50% isn’t a majority, are you?

No. I was using quotes as I was quoting though I can see how this could be misinterpreted.

That said, to describe a proportion just over 50% from what I presume was a small sample of people as a majority without qualifying it seems somewhat misleading to me.

 

[Haywain]

hat said, to describe a proportion just over 50% from what I presume was a small sample of people as a majority without qualifying it seems somewhat misleading to me.

That's a very 2016 argument.

 

[wilbers]

At least it isn't into hanging chards territory.

 

[Hadders]

I guess I am imagining there would be a "simplification" of those rules, such that it is determined by train rather than ticket. That would seem logical if one of the aims is to encourage use of quieter services.

But perhaps I underestimate the scale/implications of such a change.

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume you would want this to be a peak train? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!
Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

 

[andythebrave]

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume you would want this to be a peak train? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!
Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

I suppose it could work if published timetables were colour coded (like, as I recall, Virgin then Avanti's were/are for catering availability) so, if peak was red and off-peak was unshaded the Leeds example would be unshaded throughout and the Edinburgh one would be red at Edinburgh only.
Or something, my brain hurts now.

 

[Hadders]

I suppose it could work if published timetables were colour coded (like, as I recall, Virgin then Avanti's were/are for catering availability) so, if peak was red and off-peak was unshaded the Leeds example would be unshaded throughout and the Edinburgh one would be red at Edinburgh only.
Or something, my brain hurts now.

Really? Are you suggesting that the 11:11 train from Peterborough should be shaded green indicating Off Peak but the later train at 11:50 be shaded red to indicate Anytime?

That isn't simple at all.

 

[BRX]

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume you would want this to be a peak train? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!
Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

It would be done per station departure (I was careful to say "departure" rather than "train" in my initial post), so it wouldn't have to apply to the whole of a train's journey. In a paper timetable it might look like this



where the dark shading would indicate "peak" and would mean you'd need an anytime ticket to board at Edinburgh or Newcastle but not at Darlington or Peterborough
(in fact I'm sure I've seen a system like this before, maybe in another country?)

But - most people don't use paper timetables now anyway. They are much more likely to use a journey planner so their "timetable" is likely to look like this



In which case you could just have the peak time departures highlighted in red, or with a "P" symbol next to them, or whatever.

 

[Hadders]

It would be done per station departure (I was careful to say "departure" rather than "train" in my initial post), so it wouldn't have to apply to the whole of a train's journey. In a paper timetable it might look like this

View attachment 152396

where the dark shading would indicate "peak" and would mean you'd need an anytime ticket to board at Edinburgh or Newcastle but not at Darlington or Peterborough
(in fact I'm sure I've seen a system like this before, maybe in another country?)

But - most people don't use paper timetables now anyway. They are much more likely to use a journey planner so their "timetable" is likely to look like this

View attachment 152397

In which case you could just have the peak time departures highlighted in red, or with a "P" symbol next to them, or whatever.

So you're not proposing restrictions based on the train but on tickets. That doesn't sound any different to the existing system.

 

[BRX]

So you're not proposing restrictions based on the train but on tickets. That doesn't sound any different to the existing system.

I was proposing a better way to communicate the information. I tried to explain in this post:

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

There are quite a few where they don't, but I'm not about to name them here. It's fair to say the vast majority of XC-set SVRs have that restriction, but it's not universal by any stretch of the imagination. Many of their most popular flows are also not priced by them (e.g. journeys within the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Krokodil]

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume you would want this to be a peak train? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!
Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

Some operators have peak restrictions based on arrival times at London Terminals. "No arrival before 10:00" etc. For those flows it often makes sense, and you wouldn't want a blanket "no departure before 09:30" rule because it would penalise passengers joining at the extremities of the network where the commuters to London departed several hours ago.

Personally I'm all in favour of doing away with peak restrictions (and Advances) in the name of simplification, but by levelling down fares to a reasonable mileage rate, not by levelling them up as LNER have done.

 

[Hadders]

Personally I'm all in favour of doing away with peak restrictions (and Advances) in the name of simplification, but by levelling down fares to a reasonable mileage rate, not by levelling them up as LNER have done.

That's worthy of a new thread in Speculative Discussion but a few of us will have some questions about how such a proposal would work in reality

 

[Watershed]

It would be done per station departure (I was careful to say "departure" rather than "train" in my initial post), so it wouldn't have to apply to the whole of a train's journey. In a paper timetable it might look like this

View attachment 152396

where the dark shading would indicate "peak" and would mean you'd need an anytime ticket to board at Edinburgh or Newcastle but not at Darlington or Peterborough
(in fact I'm sure I've seen a system like this before, maybe in another country?)

But - most people don't use paper timetables now anyway. They are much more likely to use a journey planner so their "timetable" is likely to look like this

View attachment 152397

In which case you could just have the peak time departures highlighted in red, or with a "P" symbol next to them, or whatever.

This would be simpler but would lead to many more splitting opportunities, as is the case on XC.

 

[andythebrave]

Really? Are you suggesting that the 11:11 train from Peterborough should be shaded green indicating Off Peak but the later train at 11:50 be shaded red to indicate Anytime?

That isn't simple at all.

No, red only at Edinburgh.

 

[yorksrob]

I see that my super off peak return from Yorkshire to Cornwall via London has disappeared. Another "benefit" from LNER's half baked reform.

 

[fandroid]

I see that my super off peak return from Yorkshire to Cornwall via London has disappeared. Another "benefit" from LNER's half baked reform.

Yep. You'd definitely need to split that (and/or possibly travel via Leeds)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see that my super off peak return from Yorkshire to Cornwall via London has disappeared. Another "benefit" from LNER's half baked reform.

You can however just buy super off peak singles for the relevant bits (unless a split is cheaper). It's not in the "reformed" fares. Though this is yet another example of where if applied universally the reform would cause trouble because GWR are far less into Advances than LNER and it's extremely common for none to be available on busy summer trains unless booked months ahead.

 

[Haywain]

You can however just buy super off peak singles for the relevant bits (unless a split is cheaper). It's not in the "reformed" fares. Though this is yet another example of where if applied universally the reform would cause trouble because GWR are far less into Advances than LNER and it's extremely common for none to be available on busy summer trains unless booked months ahead.

The downside to buying singles is how the restrictions are then applied. With a return ticket from Yorkshire to Devon the restrictions in both directions are those in and out of King's Cross but with a single for the return leg the restrictions applied are those into Paddington. This can be a negative in meaning the journey cannot be started as early as may be desired. It can also be a positive in allowing travel from King's Cross in the afternoon peak but it's a mixed picture.

 

[Krokodil]

That's worthy of a new thread in Speculative Discussion but a few of us will have some questions about how such a proposal would work in reality

I'm not going to bother going into a full discussion, we all know that it will all just come back to political willpower (both for subsidising the fares and for investing in capacity), and obtaining that political willpower needs me to dig out the thumbscrews first.