It reads that mixed households shouldn’t visit together (same table presumably) but a household can go to a restaurant or whatever yeah (in of itself this should be ok as such venues should be enforcing the distancing)
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Local lockdown in Greater Manchester, East Lancashire and parts of West Yorkshire - Discussion
- Thread starter Jozhua
- Start date
- Status
It reads that mixed households shouldn’t visit together (same table presumably) but a household can go to a restaurant or whatever yeah (in of itself this should be ok as such venues should be enforcing the distancing)
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I guess technically no, if this is in force at the time. However there’s no indication how long it will persist
ForTheLoveOf
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 6,416
Effectively the affected area stretches across the Pennines from Greater Manchester in the west up to, but excluding, Leeds in the east.
I thought you are only allowed to bubble with one household. I try to follow the rules, even if I don't like them.
Complete nonsense, no relation to reality whatsoever. See the graphs here of the recent number of infections in some of the places - they are either effectively zero (Rossendale) or already falling (Pendle, Kirklees).
We can't go on like this.
We can't go on like this.
PG
Established Member
Press release now out
New rules on gatherings in some parts of Northern England
Government announces changes to rules on gatherings in Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and East Lancashire after increase in COVID-19 caseswww.gov.uk
Key bit:
It gets worse - the last four paragraphs consecutively speak about geographical areas, Eid, mosques and hygiene. The final sentence of the last paragraph ends with a mention of how this helps Leicester!
Can't even edit the press release properly!
Indeed, though that didn't stop them sending a text message to every telephone in the land on the *Tuesday* saying 'new rules in force now', when they weren't.
This Government is clearly going to continue to try to do whatever it wants to do, for any arbitrary reason or none, without any respect for how our systems of law and governance are supposed to work, or any semblance of respect to its electors. That much should be extremely clear now to everyone. And if you're not alarmed by that, you really should be.
Another nonsense response that makes no sense whatsoever. I fully agree on Eid being the reasoning, if they're trying to hide it they're not doing a great job, I've been having chats with my friends from Manchester this evening who all think that's behind it.
I wish them luck enforcing it.
I wish them luck enforcing it.
This really frustrates me, clearly not been thought through and I think this is exactly the type of behaviour the government needs to stop doing in order to keep people on side. More and more will just start ignoring the regulations, especially when there are towns and cities elsewhere that have more new cases.
ForTheLoveOf
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 6,416
Unfortunately it's all too easy to present such legal niceties as being a case of "us vs the stupid lawyers stopping us from preventing Covid". This pandemic has well and truly demonstrated that written laws don't matter any more. A Twitter message is seemingly enough to change the law, according to how the Government is behaving. Nobody really seems to give a damn either.
bramling
Veteran Member
I think a lot of this is more incompetence rather than conspiracy, however you’re right it’s a concerning precedent for the future.
If there's a spike for whatever reason, then you need to dampen it down while you have the chance. Where or why it started is irrelevant, other than to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Once it starts spreading, it spreads everywhere.
This thing has traveled to us from around the world. The distance from Oldham to Salford isn't going to present any difficulty.
I understand people feeling annoyed at poorly explained things like masks in shops, but when it comes to being told there is a spike and it needs to be quashed, it's not the government I feel annoyed at. It's the irresponsible and selfish individuals who have thoughtlessly placed their own wants above the needs of the many. They are responsible for your loss of choice and enjoyment. Let's hope they are also not responsible for a lot worse.
Once it starts spreading, it spreads everywhere.
This thing has traveled to us from around the world. The distance from Oldham to Salford isn't going to present any difficulty.
I understand people feeling annoyed at poorly explained things like masks in shops, but when it comes to being told there is a spike and it needs to be quashed, it's not the government I feel annoyed at. It's the irresponsible and selfish individuals who have thoughtlessly placed their own wants above the needs of the many. They are responsible for your loss of choice and enjoyment. Let's hope they are also not responsible for a lot worse.
Even if we accept that, there is no spike here to dampen. Look at the graphs I linked to above.
bramling
Veteran Member
Have to say driving home at 2300 earlier and passing a number of pubs with car parks overflowing into the road and crowds of people round the outsides, a small chill did run through my spine. It does seem a strange order of priority to be re-opening pubs whilst we still have many office workers furloughed and children not back at school, when pubs and restaurants do seem to be suspected elsewhere of being a significant source of transmission.
However this local lockdown doesn’t seem to be about pubs, but more about households.
Is their anything that defines in law what constitutes a garden, for the purpose of these instructions?
Is a garden with a public right of way through it a private garden?
According to the dictionary a garden is a place for primarily growing fruit, vegetables and flowers, therefore if you only have non flowering plants, is it a garden?
Is a driveway a garden?
Is a yard with no greenery a garden?
Can non residents enter a communal garden?
Is an unfenced front garden a private garden?
If a gathering takes place where one household is in their garden and another is on the pavement is that ok,?
I know all these are against the spirit of the rules, but that doesnt mean anything to some politicians or their advisors so I'm sure there are plenty of loopholes.
Is a garden with a public right of way through it a private garden?
According to the dictionary a garden is a place for primarily growing fruit, vegetables and flowers, therefore if you only have non flowering plants, is it a garden?
Is a driveway a garden?
Is a yard with no greenery a garden?
Can non residents enter a communal garden?
Is an unfenced front garden a private garden?
If a gathering takes place where one household is in their garden and another is on the pavement is that ok,?
I know all these are against the spirit of the rules, but that doesnt mean anything to some politicians or their advisors so I'm sure there are plenty of loopholes.
So you cannot meet another household within your own house, but you can meet them in a pub, cafe etc as long as you keep a distance, but then instead of just two familes together, you may have a lot more in a smallish area ..#ot have I read that wrong ?
Is that really the case though ?
Most of the instances of transmission I've read about have been places of work. Round here, the local outbreaks have been food processing plants and a bed factory.
I fear that pubs and resataurants will become one of those things (like public transport) that people feel should be a source of transmission, but aren't necessarily so.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Quite honestly waking up to this news this morning, there is a lot of anger & going to be a lot more. This is so obviously about Eid, announced right about the time that Muslims were beginning to start celebrating Eid, and interestingly it seems the only places where the government think social distancing is being ignored is in councils not controlled by the Tories.
Its becoming clear to me (and hopefully others) that the government's strategy is to find people to blame, then punish them. First it was users of public transport, then it was the shops, people daring to go on holiday, now its people celebrating a religious festival, or daring to visit family or friends. The government are starting to make it very clear they have little intention of releasing their grip on their newly gifted emergency powers. This is not going to end well.
Its becoming clear to me (and hopefully others) that the government's strategy is to find people to blame, then punish them. First it was users of public transport, then it was the shops, people daring to go on holiday, now its people celebrating a religious festival, or daring to visit family or friends. The government are starting to make it very clear they have little intention of releasing their grip on their newly gifted emergency powers. This is not going to end well.
Plus on lockdown day "Boris will be makimg a statement at 8pm" was known earlier on in the day (and most sensible/attention-paying people knew something would be coming)
I sense this has *really* not gone down well in the areas affected.
There's also a big risk that the apparent link to Eid ignites some racial tensions bubbling under the surface.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Oh it really hasn't, and sadly the response on social media is depressingly predictable.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Agreed.
We need the Press Conference back if this sort of thing is going to change in this way. You can then be sure of when you can watch/listen for an update.
It is about Eid; we need to stop screaming "racism" and be open about it. It's likely the same thing will have to happen at Christmas, to be honest.
Correct, one household and you can't change it. You can't officially "unbubble", but in reality if you don't meet for 2 weeks in any form you'd probably not be seen as close contacts.
Controller1701
Member
- Joined
- 7 Dec 2012
- Messages
- 136
So if our leader gives a couple of weeks notice of new regulations to beat this issue he is wrong for not imposing the regulations from that point (i.e masks in shops) but having now listened to his public and imposing the new restrictions immediately he is still wrong. What is the poor man to do, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
I don't believe the government's announcement is racially motivated in the slightest.
But I can see some more extreme sections of the general population perhaps not taking too kindly to the link (as awful as that is to write).
(Re: Christmas. Good luck to the government on that one. That's one where, if it were necessary, the messaging is going to have to start very early, with thecright support in place - it is a season that is not great for suicide rates as it is)
You have to admit surely that an announcement late at night on twitter is not the right way to do things. There should have been an emergency ministerial statement on the BBC and ITV. Any announcement made on twitter as far as I'm concerned is not government policy, and I'll wait until a formal statement is made by the PM or relevant secretary of state before I act on anything.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Poor man? Oh please! If he doesn't like the heat, he can always get out of the kitchen. The problem here is that the announcement was made more or less at the time most Muslim folk would have been getting together, or heading out for a meal. If you are going to impose rapid restrictions, you at give least some notice, not just 4 hours especially when many people would not even be bothering keeping an eye out for briefings.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Oh I'm sure it wasn't racially motivated, but given the timing was clearly aimed at the Muslim communities in these areas. And that will and is leading to other people drawing their own conclusions & fuelling some people's prejudices, something that the government must surely have been aware of.
Apart from possibly the marching season in Northern Ireland, I can't think of any other time when the force of law has been used to circumscribe the activities of a particular faith group in this country. It's right that this should be flagged up because of the precedent it sets.
There will be some Muslims who complain about being made scapegoats and some non-Muslims who complain about not being able to have the barbecue that they'd planned and bought for because it's specifically targeted at Eid. The local MPs are going to have a busy weekend.
Epidemiologists understand how to read data, and established models explain how other factors influence outcomes.
I remember at the start of all this there was a social media backlash against the government calling them callous and cavalier for not putting in place strong measures, some even suggesting it was deliberate. Now those measures are in place and in play, I find it's often the same people who object. Including some who suggest the government again has some ulterior motive.
Apparently, according to some, the government is even now racist in overzealous application! Given the higher mortality rate among BME people (that means BME people who catch COVID-19 are much more likely to die from it) for yet to be discovered scientific reasons, I wonder how many of those would be accusing the government of something even more sinister had it not acted.
It's quite simple: people just need to grow up, learn to control themselves and stop acting like toddlers at a party. Then you'll find the government won't need to do anything other than decide where you can go on holiday, and who can holiday here.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't believe it's racially motivated at all. It's motivated, in my view, practically, by the fact that in any major religious festival people are going to meet up all over the place. OK, Muslims won't be getting drunk, which helps, but from my observation of the Eid festivals in south Manchester when I used to live there they are "drunk on the experience", as you might call it - i.e. it's all so exciting and special that everything else goes out of the window.
It's just unlucky that Eid was the next major religious festival to come up.
I can't see any option for Christmas but a return to actual national lockdown for about 2 weeks across it, unless something changes by then (vaccine/treatment). I suspect the Government are stringing out hope that one of the vaccines can be certified by then.
C J Snarzell
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 1,506
This is very frustrating - I live in Wigan borough which has been doing really well with it's figures but yet we fall under the umbrella of Greater Manchester.
Without getting into a racial or political depate - the hot spot areas are towns with large Asian communities such as Oldham & Blackburn.
My friend who is a cop in Leicester says their recent escapade was largely caused by Eide celebrations and people from the
Asian community completely ignoring any common sense about social distancing. He said it's as if Covid doesnt exist in the Melton Road area and people are doing what they want.
I drove through Preston last week and there was some kind of wedding ceremony taking place at a local mosque with literally hundreds of Asian people congregated outside. I had to slow down and drive carefully as many people were spilling out onto the roads. No one was social distancing - I saw people kissing & holding hands. I thought only a maximum of 30 people were allowed at weddings, yet there must have been in excess of 300 people there.
There was not a police car to be seen. This is the issue now in this country, we have become to afraid of being branded 'racist' and the government are walking on egg shells, particularly in light of recent events of 'Black Lives Matter'.
I don't want to lay all the blame at Asian communities because it is unfair - we saw two huge illegal raves involving thousands of young people, that took place in Oldham & Carrington earlier this month, and Trafford (who cover Carrington) have seen a spike in cases aswell.
We've also seen two huge celebrations in Liverpool with the football fans celebrating their Premiership win - although Merseyside so far is not affected by last night's news.
What annoys me about all of this is that I have completely adhered to what has been said, but because of the selfishness of others I now have to cancel a meal I had planned with my mum on Sunday because she lives in a separate household.
Its the typical classroom scenario - one naughty child misbehaves so the rest of the class gets punished.
CJ
Without getting into a racial or political depate - the hot spot areas are towns with large Asian communities such as Oldham & Blackburn.
My friend who is a cop in Leicester says their recent escapade was largely caused by Eide celebrations and people from the
Asian community completely ignoring any common sense about social distancing. He said it's as if Covid doesnt exist in the Melton Road area and people are doing what they want.
I drove through Preston last week and there was some kind of wedding ceremony taking place at a local mosque with literally hundreds of Asian people congregated outside. I had to slow down and drive carefully as many people were spilling out onto the roads. No one was social distancing - I saw people kissing & holding hands. I thought only a maximum of 30 people were allowed at weddings, yet there must have been in excess of 300 people there.
There was not a police car to be seen. This is the issue now in this country, we have become to afraid of being branded 'racist' and the government are walking on egg shells, particularly in light of recent events of 'Black Lives Matter'.
I don't want to lay all the blame at Asian communities because it is unfair - we saw two huge illegal raves involving thousands of young people, that took place in Oldham & Carrington earlier this month, and Trafford (who cover Carrington) have seen a spike in cases aswell.
We've also seen two huge celebrations in Liverpool with the football fans celebrating their Premiership win - although Merseyside so far is not affected by last night's news.
What annoys me about all of this is that I have completely adhered to what has been said, but because of the selfishness of others I now have to cancel a meal I had planned with my mum on Sunday because she lives in a separate household.
Its the typical classroom scenario - one naughty child misbehaves so the rest of the class gets punished.
CJ
- Status