Loco Hauled Services in 2021 (Hopefully)

[43096]

Yes and I am very annoyed because I am not a fan of the silly green livery

I’d suggest reserving judgement until it’s on the real thing, rather than just a low resolution render.

 

[xotGD]

The Scarborough Spa Express is due to run 11 times this summer. First trip on 27th May.

A good way to sample some loco-hauled action in a comfy Mark 1.

 

[Iskra]

Does anyone know what’s going on with TP 68’s currently, and in particular this BH Monday please?

 

[Watershed]

Does anyone know what’s going on with TP 68’s currently, and in particular this BH Monday please?

There are no planned alterations from the current diagrams. 3 sets out - forming the majority of Scarborough-York shuttles - but one eastbound service in the morning and one westbound in the evening to get the sets rotated through Longsight. Sundays are the same but with a later start (0654 LIV-SCA early morning starts as 0819 MAN-SCA).

 

[Iskra]

There are no planned alterations from the current diagrams. 3 sets out - forming the majority of Scarborough-York shuttles - but one eastbound service in the morning and one westbound in the evening to get the sets rotated through Longsight. Sundays are the same but with a later start (0654 LIV-SCA early morning starts as 0819 MAN-SCA).

Amazing, thanks for the information

 

[MattRat]

Personally, I'm wondering if TFW Premier Service will run at 125 when it starts back up, given that the Class 67s can actually run up to that speed, much to my surprise.

 

[berneyarms]

I don’t think so as no part of the route has a line speed that high.

 

[MattRat]

I don’t think so as no part of the route has a line speed that high.

Thanks. Sadly I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single track line speed. My life could be so much easier if I had that kind of memory capability.....

 

[Iskra]

I don’t think so as no part of the route has a line speed that high.

Thanks. Sadly I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single track line speed. My life could be so much easier if I had that kind of memory capability.....

Also, are the 67’s still even theoretically capable of 125? I thought they had been downrated? It would take them an age to get to that speed anyway as their acceleration isn’t great.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Also, are the 67’s still even theoretically capable of 125? I thought they had been downrated? It would take them an age to get to that speed anyway as their acceleration isn’t great.

Yeah it’s 110.

 

[Iskra]

Yeah it’s 110.

Thanks

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Also, Mark 3 coaches can go at 125, so if they could go at that speed now, then they would have done before.

 

[MattRat]

Yeah it’s 110.

Well then I've been lied to......

 

[CW2]

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I understood the class 67s were designed to run at 125 mph maximum speed, but that their combination of axle load (2-axle bogies) and weight means that speed has only ever been permitted on the Great Western Main Line Paddington to Bristol Parkway(?). To all intents and purposes, specifying them for 125 mph operation was a complete waste of time. A lower-geared 110 mph would have been ideal.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Well then I've been lied to......

Well, the full answer is yes they can do 125 under certain strict conditions, but are limited to 110 in most circumstances.

 

[raveon]

So have they ever ran at 125mph with a passenger service?

 

[JRT]

LNER have been running 91111 on 1A09 BDQ–KGX 06:30 Bradford–London last week, one of two loco-hauled sets in operation, not sure what's happening next week.

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks. Sadly I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single track line speed. My life could be so much easier if I had that kind of memory capability.....

Not really sure why that tone was needed there given you got a perfectly reasonable response to your question.

Also, Mark 3 coaches can go at 125, so if they could go at that speed now, then they would have done before.

The DVTs on the ATW/TFW rakes were limited to 110, so 125 was never an option.

The highest speed limit between Cardiff and Holyhead is 90. There is a section of 95HST/75 between Cardiff and Newport but the MKIIIs were subject to the lower limit here. MKIVs hauled by 91s were allowed run at HST speeds so it will be interesting to see if they get this dispensation with 67s as well, though I suspect this probably won't be the case.

On a few rare occasions there were some ECS runs between Crewe and Warrington for various reasons that could and did hit 110.

With TfW taking on the sets that were meant to be going to Grand Central there is talk of them being used on Swansea - Manchester services, which potentially provides a long section of 110mph running between Crewe and Wilmslow.

Also, are the 67’s still even theoretically capable of 125? I thought they had been downrated? It would take them an age to get to that speed anyway as their acceleration isn’t great.

Yeah it’s 110.

Last I checked (and it has been a little while) all the signage inside and outside the loco was for 125mph. And the acceleration isn't that bad at all, at least not with the shorter rakes the hauled in Wales. Slow at the very start, but once fast enough for full power to be applied they outperformed any DMU in the TfW fleet.

 

[berneyarms]

Thanks. Sadly I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single track line speed. My life could be so much easier if I had that kind of memory capability.....

You asked the question and I answered it honestly. No need to be quite so smart.

I would point out that it doesn't take one to be Einstein to be able remember that the only 125mph capable conventional rail lines are sections of the following routes:

East Coast mainline
West Coast mainline
Midland mainline
GWR mainline
Birmingham to Derby

In other words the traditional HST / Pendolino routes.

None of these cover the route that the TfW Premier service between Holyhead and Cardiff uses.

 

[MattRat]

You asked the question and I answered it honestly. No need to be quite so smart.

I would point out that it doesn't take one to be Einstein to be able remember that the only 125mph capable conventional rail lines are sections of the following routes:

East Coast mainline
West Coast mainline
Midland mainline
GWR mainline
Birmingham to Derby

In other words the traditional HST / Pendolino routes.

None of these cover the route that the TfW Premier service between Holyhead and Cardiff uses.

I was actually trying so hard not to sound like that. Failed miserably of course.

Also, it's a shame a Class 67 will likely never haul an express train on these routes. To me, there is just something so cool about a high speed loco service compared to multiple units.

 

[craigybagel]

I was actually trying so hard not to sound like that. Failed miserably of course.

Also, it's a shame a Class 67 will likely never haul an express train on these routes. To me, there is just something so cool about a high speed loco service compared to multiple units.

A 67 has hauled class 1 services on all of those routes I believe - mostly in the form of charter services, but also as a rescue Thunderbird on the ECML, and diverted Wrexham & Shropshire services on the WCML.

Granted however, most of these services were particularly common or easy to travel on, and none of them traveled at 125mph.

As I said above though, there is a possibility we'll see regular 110mph running on a branch of the WCML if the Manchester - Swansea services do come about.

 

[Peter749]

As I said above though, there is a possibility we'll see regular 110mph running on a branch of the WCML if the Manchester - Swansea services do come about.

The TfW services between Crewe and Manchester are timed at 100mph and it is unlikely the timings would change as a replacement Dmu would not keep time

Peter

 

[craigybagel]

The TfW services between Crewe and Manchester are timed at 100mph and it is unlikely the timings would change as a replacement Dmu would not keep time

Peter

To be fair, the timings today don't require 100mph running anyway. The extra speed comes in handy at times though.

At the moment, I'm pretty confident there would indeed be a difference in performance between a 67 hauling MKIVs running at 110mph and a class 175 limited to 100 mph. However, when the DMUs in question are CAF 197s, there will be much less of a performance gap. With a 6 speed transmission the acceleration of the 197 at low speeds should leave the 67 standing, with the 67 catching up again at higher speeds. The 197 should also have much better dwell times with its door layout. It may well be the other way around, that the 67s need to run at 110mph to match DMU timings.

The timings at present are pretty much set in stone by the crossing of the WCML in Crewe and the congested approaches to Piccadilly. The greater performance of the new fleet however, be that 197 or 67 may mean that changes can be made.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

The TfW services between Crewe and Manchester are timed at 100mph and it is unlikely the timings would change as a replacement Dmu would not keep time

Peter

The trains could still run faster though, especially if making up time. For years the MML HSTs were timed for 110 but ran at 125, for example.

 

[Watershed]

To be fair, the timings today don't require 100mph running anyway. The extra speed comes in handy at times though.

At the moment, I'm pretty confident there would indeed be a difference in performance between a 67 hauling MKIVs running at 110mph and a class 175 limited to 100 mph. However, when the DMUs in question are CAF 197s, there will be much less of a performance gap. With a 6 speed transmission the acceleration of the 197 should leave the 67 standing, with the 67 catching up again at higher speeds. The 197 should also have much better dwell times with its door layout. It may well be the other way around, that the 67s need to run at 110mph to match DMU timings.

The timings at present are pretty much set in stone by the crossing of the WCML in Crewe and the congested approaches to Piccadilly. The greater performance of the new fleet however, be that 197 or 67 may mean that changes can be made.

I imagine it's more that you can extend dwells, or add pathing (as a quasi performance allowance), if the booked traction becomes more sprightly.

 

[craigybagel]

I imagine it's more that you can extend dwells, or add pathing (as a quasi performance allowance), if the booked traction becomes more sprightly.

Indeed, and I doubt anyone would be complaining about having the flexibility to do that. Whilst timekeeping on that route is pretty good, the 20 minute turnaround at Piccadilly isn't that long for a 5 or 6 hour journey.

 

[Peter749]

I imagine it's more that you can extend dwells, or add pathing (as a quasi performance allowance), if the booked traction becomes more sprightly.

I doubt a 67 & Mk4s would accelerate faster than modern Dmu - the 67 & Mk3s did not on the NWC Workings Manchester to Holyhead
And the 110mph running only exists over the 14 miles between Wilmslow and Sandbach

Peter

 

[craigybagel]

I doubt a 67 & Mk4s would accelerate faster than modern Dmu - the 67 & Mk3s did not on the NWC Workings Manchester to Holyhead
And the 110mph running only exists over the 14 miles between Wilmslow and Sandbach

Peter

They did when I was driving them, and that's been suggested by a fellow TfW driver as well.

It is true that the 110mph running isn't likely to make much difference though, but it might be something to look forward to for those who enjoy such things.

Incidentally, the plan to introduce the MKIVs on Manchester - Swansea from next year has now been publicly confirmed, as part of the announcements made today to celebrate the introduction of the sets into service on Holyhead - Cardiff services

Link to story here

 

[Peter749]

Only just in next year as the date given is December 2022

 

[craigybagel]

Only just in next year as the date given is December 2022

There's a LOT of training that needs to take place to make this happen - whilst at the same time Class 197 training also needs to happen, and there's already a backlog from Covid to catch up on. To get a full service from December 2022 will actually be quite an achievement.